Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Fingering scales in double thirds

What is the most efficient way to finger these? I'm not having the best of luck making these sound even using Hanon's fingering, so I'd like some suggestions or to be pointed to a set of exercises that might have a better fingering.

Do you mean double thirds? If so, the RCM technique book (scales and arpeggios) has them with fingering for each key. I'm told the trick to an even sound is not to play them too slowly although I've yet to master it.

http://files.sheetmusicarchive.net/compositions_b/grad29.pdf

If that doesn't work, this should:

http://www.filesavr.com/grad29

I'm in the US, so I don't have any RCM stuff.

Double thirds is another name for what I mean. I actually have a scales, etc book. I'll look to see if it has what I need.

What's the distinction between thirds and double thirds?

Steven

Thanks! I see Tausig's name on it. What is this?

When one plays scales "in thirds" it, it often means "separated by a third". So essentially you can play a C major scale from C-C with L.H. while playing from E-E with R.H. Two keys are depressed at once.

Double thirds essentially means that you play the exercise above, but with one hand. The fingering I'd use with R.H. would be 13, 24, 35, 13, 24, 13, 24, 35.

With double thirds with both hands, you are playing 4 keys at once.


I should point out that you must be very careful while playing double thirds: if you are not relaxed or methodical enough, you can do some serious damage to your arm muscles. Pushing down 2 keys at once with 2 different fingers requires more dexterity than pushing one key down. I advise you to practice double thirds very slowly and relaxed.

Keep in mind that there are records of Rachmaninoff practicing the Chopin double thirds etude at a rate of about 1 bar per 23 seconds.


Edit: Horowitzian, it is double thirds fingering in all 24 major and minor keys.

It's from Tausig's edition of selections from Clementi's Gradus ad Parnassum.

Steven

Yeah, I guess there is a difference.

Thanks for the warning; I figured out pretty quick that you need to be relaxed in order to play them at all. My problem is smoothness; the Hanon fingering doesn't seem to lent itself all that well to smoothness. I'll try Tausig's fingering and see how it works for me.

This is another site with good resources, including double thirds scales:

http://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/pedagogy.html

Scroll down to the heading Resources, the 2nd bullet point.

Thanks! Looks like the same fingerings as those Tausig exercises above, but a lot easier to read.

This source does not include chromatic scales in double thirds, while Tausig's does - separated by a minor third and by a major third.

Regards,

If you're as fast as your buddy Horowitz, you could play 'em all with the same two fingers! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnla_5zrHAE (around 1:45)

No, it's just major and minor.

After playing with the Tausig scales this evening, I noted that the fingerings to make them fit neatly into 4 octaves are rather odd, and hard to remember. I guess they are correct, and OK to drill into habit? Or is there yet a better way I ought to do?

For C major:

3453434534343...34543434354343...543
1231212312121...12321212132121...321

3212132121213...32123121212342...123
5434354343435...54345343434534...345

Actually, those are not chromatic thirds (there are some earlier in the piece, though); but they might as well be. I've tried them, and they are difficult to pull off cleanly. Those are actually a series of 1st inversion chords on white keys.

bump.

Have you taken a look at Chopin's 25/6? It won't necessarily help you with fingering for pure double-thirds scales (as there is a mixture of major thirds and minor thirds), but it's pretty interesting to compare many different editions and the diverse fingerings that are suggested.

The chief problem in execution of the ascending scales is how to treat the lower notes when they are two successive white keys. Many editors recommend using the thumb for both notes, but I find it easier to slide my index finger from the previous black key onto the first white key and then use my thumb on the second one.

As fun as this piece can be to play, it won't help with the left hand at all; for that, you'd have to go to the Godowsky transcription. )

Steven

What piece of music are you trying to learn?

No, but I will. Thanks for the suggestion!

I still would like some confirmation from someone knowledgeable on those Tausig fingerings before I drill any of them into my head...

@ JScomposer: I'm just trying to learn scales in double thirds right now.

OK. So, what piece of music are you prepping for? Are you panning on writing something with such patterns? Or is this just for shits and giggles?

The Mazurka in Op. 44 has quite a few double thirds (and other intervals, too)

I might try my hand at the Chopin etude Steven mentioned once I get comfortable with a few scales.

And, yes, being a composer I might want to use some double thirds.

I asked more or less the same question here some time ago (and for more or less the same reason) and and got no response. Anyway, I have been using those fingerings for some months now and they seem okay. I got them from somewhere other than Tausig; I think they are pretty standard.

But if you want to get REALLY serious about thirds and other double-notes, take a look at Moszkowski's "School of Double Notes", op. 64.

I'm not serious enough to tackle that, but I have been supplementing scales with various etudes in thirds, too, to help keep from getting too fixated on just the scales and those particular fingerings.

Thanks, wr!! I just needed to hear from someone who uses them. I'll check out the Moszkowski Op. 64 later, after I've gotten a better feel for double thirds.

Look at Czerny Op. 740. There is an etude in double thirds. We had to do it as one of the pieces for our studio etude competition last year and it helped my thirds incredibly.

Here's a video of a kid that plays it decently

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMLSs1CepU8

That looks like fun! Thanks for the suggestion.

Thank you very for posting this awesome piano resource.

Wow, I have never teared up before watching any video. Thanks for helping my education.

Wow, I have never teared up before watching any video. Thanks for helping my education. (Horowitz plays Carmen Fantasie)

there is so much difference between minor and major thirds, diatonical or chromatic, one hand /two hands, parallel motion/contrary motion, quick or slow, compare Chopin/Saint-Saēns/Scriabin/Debussy.

FWIW, I've found that practicing one voice legato and the other voice stacatto is very helpful for double thirds, double sixths, etc.

Whoa, this thread is old.

LOL, yes, it is! I'm glad to know I'm not the only one suffering with double thirds, and not the only one who thinks they are darn difficult! I just started working with them due to good old Czerny and his Double Note Etude.When I first attempted it, I almost gave up completely. 2 weeks later, I'm up to playing it half the speed it should be played at, LOL. I don't know if I'll ever be able to play it at speed!

It's a shorter version of this one: https://musescore.com/anes/carl-czerny-a-study-in-double-notes

Actually, the girl in the video isn't playing it at speed, either, so that makes me feel a world better!! She's around 80, I'm at 54, and it's supposed to be at least 108.

Hmm; she certainly doesn't look that old!

Cheers!

If you're a complete beginner to double notes, 2 weeks is not too bad. Just keep at it, this takes patience more than anything else. Bring your practice away from the piano and practice on the table, on your lap, etc. You just want to get comfortable with the finger motions, and then train finger placement at the keyboard.

If you're ever up for a harder challenge like Chopin 25/6 or Brahms Paganini Variations, the hardest double note pattern is trilling intervals, and the way you practice that is just sit there and do it for hours trying to not tense up, and not tear your hair out or throw any heavy objects out of frustration. After the most torturous test of my patience ever, I got the hang of it after a few weeks.

I really like double note exercises because it really forces you to think about hand position and tension.

It's definitely getting better! Thanks for your advice. I was completely new to them, so I started looking for different exercises and found scales. Just started them yesterday. The etude is funny, I'm getting a lot faster but only when I don't think about my fingers, LOL! When I start focusing on them, I mess up immediately!

A bit late to the thread but...

I'm currently using this as a guide to fingering double 3rds:

http://www.peneloperoskell.co.uk/apf/default.html

It particularly focuses on retaining smoothness.

Double thirds? Double octaves? I can fumble my way through Op. 25 No. 6 at about half speed, but I couldn't even start to play it if the thirds were doubled. On the other hand, I can play Op. 25 No. 10 fairly respectably at full speed, even when the octaves stop being double and become single. When are you all going to stop with the "double" thing? They're thirds. You finger scales in thirds. (Unless I totally missed the point, which I may well have."

+1

Yes, folks, ten years after this thread started, they are still only thirds! Who's seeing double?

Regards,

Double thirds refers to playing thirds with both hands together....isn't this still the same term?

A bit weird quoting myself, but I just remembered there are actual double thirds in Op. 25 No. 6 (curiously, they're the easiest passages in the piece!). So what should one call those sections: double double thirds? Two-handed double thirds? Maybe quadruple thirds??? (2 * 2 = 4.)

Double play

Double grins.

What are you on??

Ok, if you’re joking that’s cool, though I don’t get it.

If you’re being serious and you don’t get the humor, maybe best to restrain the impulse to suggest I’m writing nonsense because I’m high on something ‘cause it’s insulting and annoying.

So, if I'm joking it's ok.

If I'm not joking then I don't understand humour.

What do you think? Was I joking?

Hello Bruce, The School of Scales and Double Notes for the Pianoforte by M. Moszkowski (1907) calls these exercises in double notes. Available at:

https://imslp.org/wiki/Studies_in_Double_Notes,_Op.64_(Moszkowski,_Moritz)

The Manual of Scales and Broken Chords and Arpeggios for Piano (ABRSM 2018) refers to these scales as double thirds, double sixths, double octaves.

I have only been taking piano for 5 years and besides listening to the Great Courses by Robert Greenberg, I do not know much about music history. However I think the difference in what the scales are called could be related to the periods of time. The more modern name being double thirds, which is my teachers reference to these scales.

Really never thought about this before and reading this thread I was thinking I seen these scales with two names. After listening to numerous Greenberg lessons, it is interesting how music has developed through history.

Just food for thought, I always appreciate your insight.

Since you know how to spell "humour" correctly you must have a sense of it. So yeah, I think you were joking. Sorry if I gave offence.