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#522820 - 01/05/09 07:24 PM
Fingering scales in double thirds
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8000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8393
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What is the most efficient way to finger these? I'm not having the best of luck making these sound even using Hanon's fingering, so I'd like some suggestions or to be pointed to a set of exercises that might have a better fingering.
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
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#522822 - 01/05/09 07:36 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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Full Member
Registered: 10/18/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newmarket
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#522823 - 01/05/09 07:36 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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8000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8393
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I'm in the US, so I don't have any RCM stuff.
Double thirds is another name for what I mean. I actually have a scales, etc book. I'll look to see if it has what I need.
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
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#522824 - 01/05/09 07:37 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
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What's the distinction between thirds and double thirds?
Steven
_________________________
 "There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer
Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19
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#522825 - 01/05/09 07:38 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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8000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8393
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Thanks! I see Tausig's name on it. What is this?
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
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#522826 - 01/05/09 07:44 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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Full Member
Registered: 10/18/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newmarket
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When one plays scales "in thirds" it, it often means "separated by a third". So essentially you can play a C major scale from C-C with L.H. while playing from E-E with R.H. Two keys are depressed at once.
Double thirds essentially means that you play the exercise above, but with one hand. The fingering I'd use with R.H. would be 13, 24, 35, 13, 24, 13, 24, 35.
With double thirds with both hands, you are playing 4 keys at once.
I should point out that you must be very careful while playing double thirds: if you are not relaxed or methodical enough, you can do some serious damage to your arm muscles. Pushing down 2 keys at once with 2 different fingers requires more dexterity than pushing one key down. I advise you to practice double thirds very slowly and relaxed.
Keep in mind that there are records of Rachmaninoff practicing the Chopin double thirds etude at a rate of about 1 bar per 23 seconds.
Edit: Horowitzian, it is double thirds fingering in all 24 major and minor keys.
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#522827 - 01/05/09 07:44 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
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Originally posted by Horowitzian:  Thanks! I see Tausig's name on it. What is this? [/b] It's from Tausig's edition of selections from Clementi's Gradus ad Parnassum. Steven
_________________________
"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer
Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19
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#522828 - 01/05/09 07:51 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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8000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8393
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Originally posted by ThomasF: When one plays scales "in thirds" it, it often means "separated by a third". So essentially you can play a C major scale from C-C with L.H. while playing from E-E with R.H. Two keys are depressed at once. Double thirds essentially means that you play the exercise above, but with one hand. The fingering I'd use with R.H. would be 13, 24, 35, 13, 24, 13, 24, 35. With double thirds with both hands, you are playing 4 keys at once. I should point out that you must be very careful while playing double thirds: if you are not relaxed or methodical enough, you can do some serious damage to your arm muscles. Pushing down 2 keys at once with 2 different fingers requires more dexterity than pushing one key down. I advise you to practice double thirds very slowly and relaxed. Keep in mind that there are records of Rachmaninoff practicing the Chopin double thirds etude at a rate of about 1 bar per 23 seconds. Edit: Horowitzian, it is double thirds fingering in all 24 major and minor keys. [/b] Yeah, I guess there is a difference.  Thanks for the warning; I figured out pretty quick that you need to be relaxed in order to play them at all. My problem is smoothness; the Hanon fingering doesn't seem to lent itself all that well to smoothness. I'll try Tausig's fingering and see how it works for me.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
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#522829 - 01/05/09 08:13 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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Full Member
Registered: 03/30/07
Posts: 128
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This is another site with good resources, including double thirds scales: http://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/pedagogy.html Scroll down to the heading Resources, the 2nd bullet point.
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#522830 - 01/05/09 09:21 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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8000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8393
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Thanks!  Looks like the same fingerings as those Tausig exercises above, but a lot easier to read.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
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#522831 - 01/05/09 11:36 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 16728
Loc: Victoria, BC
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This source does not include chromatic scales in double thirds, while Tausig's does - separated by a minor third and by a major third. Regards,
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BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
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#522833 - 01/06/09 12:29 AM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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8000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8393
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Originally posted by BruceD: This source does not include chromatic scales in double thirds, while Tausig's does - separated by a minor third and by a major third. [/b] No, it's just major and minor. After playing with the Tausig scales this evening, I noted that the fingerings to make them fit neatly into 4 octaves are rather odd, and hard to remember. I guess they are correct, and OK to drill into habit? Or is there yet a better way I ought to do? For C major: 3453434534343...34543434354343...543 1231212312121...12321212132121...321 3212132121213...32123121212342...123 5434354343435...54345343434534...345
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
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#522834 - 01/06/09 12:48 AM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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8000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8393
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Actually, those are not chromatic thirds (there are some earlier in the piece, though); but they might as well be. I've tried them, and they are  difficult to pull off cleanly. Those are actually a series of 1st inversion chords on white keys.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
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#522836 - 01/06/09 08:02 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
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Have you taken a look at Chopin's 25/6? It won't necessarily help you with fingering for pure double-thirds scales (as there is a mixture of major thirds and minor thirds), but it's pretty interesting to compare many different editions and the diverse fingerings that are suggested. The chief problem in execution of the ascending scales is how to treat the lower notes when they are two successive white keys. Many editors recommend using the thumb for both notes, but I find it easier to slide my index finger from the previous black key onto the first white key and then use my thumb on the second one. As fun as this piece can be to play, it won't help with the left hand at all; for that, you'd have to go to the Godowsky transcription.  ) Steven
_________________________
"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer
Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19
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#522838 - 01/06/09 08:04 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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8000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8393
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No, but I will. Thanks for the suggestion! I still would like some confirmation from someone knowledgeable on those Tausig fingerings before I drill any of them into my head...  @ JScomposer: I'm just trying to learn scales in double thirds right now. 
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
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#522839 - 01/06/09 08:14 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
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Originally posted by Horowitzian: @ JScomposer: I'm just trying to learn scales in double thirds right now. [/b] OK. So, what piece of music are you prepping for? Are you panning on writing something with such patterns? Or is this just for shits and giggles?
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#522840 - 01/06/09 08:15 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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8000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8393
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The Mazurka in Op. 44 has quite a few double thirds (and other intervals, too) I might try my hand at the Chopin etude Steven mentioned once I get comfortable with a few scales. And, yes, being a composer I might want to use some double thirds.
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
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#522841 - 01/07/09 06:28 AM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 6512
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Originally posted by Horowitzian: No, but I will. Thanks for the suggestion! I still would like some confirmation from someone knowledgeable on those Tausig fingerings before I drill any of them into my head... [/b] I asked more or less the same question here some time ago (and for more or less the same reason) and and got no response. Anyway, I have been using those fingerings for some months now and they seem okay. I got them from somewhere other than Tausig; I think they are pretty standard. But if you want to get REALLY serious about thirds and other double-notes, take a look at Moszkowski's "School of Double Notes", op. 64. I'm not serious enough to tackle that, but I have been supplementing scales with various etudes in thirds, too, to help keep from getting too fixated on just the scales and those particular fingerings.
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#522843 - 01/07/09 01:05 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
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Full Member
Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 367
Loc: Connecticut/Cincinnati
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Look at Czerny Op. 740. There is an etude in double thirds. We had to do it as one of the pieces for our studio etude competition last year and it helped my thirds incredibly. Here's a video of a kid that plays it decently http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMLSs1CepU8
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#1989815 - 11/22/12 03:00 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
[Re: soccer_daemon]
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Full Member
Registered: 07/28/12
Posts: 492
Loc: Canada Alberta
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Thank you very for posting this awesome piano resource.
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#1989817 - 11/22/12 03:07 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
[Re: jscomposer]
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Full Member
Registered: 07/28/12
Posts: 492
Loc: Canada Alberta
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Wow, I have never teared up before watching any video. Thanks for helping my education.
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#1989821 - 11/22/12 03:17 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
[Re: Horowitzian]
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Full Member
Registered: 07/28/12
Posts: 492
Loc: Canada Alberta
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Wow, I have never teared up before watching any video. Thanks for helping my education. (Horowitz plays Carmen Fantasie)
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#1989882 - 11/22/12 06:29 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
[Re: Horowitzian]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2443
Loc: Netherlands
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there is so much difference between minor and major thirds, diatonical or chromatic, one hand /two hands, parallel motion/contrary motion, quick or slow, compare Chopin/Saint-Saēns/Scriabin/Debussy.
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Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Chopin op.25/35/22, Liszt sonata, Schubert D.960, Kapustin op.40
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#1989908 - 11/22/12 08:47 PM
Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
[Re: Horowitzian]
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Full Member
Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 238
Loc: NJ
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FWIW, I've found that practicing one voice legato and the other voice stacatto is very helpful for double thirds, double sixths, etc.
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'Nothing in music is hard, just unfamiliar' -Kenny Werner
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