I want to cut back on writing rock and roll for a while and focus more on composing classical style pieces. Actually, I was just listening to soundtracks from movies like Gladiator and Lord of the Rings and it would be a dream of mine to compose peices like that. How do start? It's not as easy as simply chord progressions. Is it a lot of voicings etc? Help me get on the right track please.

First things first...you have to starve yourself and start wearing the same clothes every day. Then after about 7 years you'll get your lucky break on "Showtime at the Apollo" unfortunately no one with any musical resources that would interest you will be watching , and you consider it a waste of time and effort.

The next day your best friend is on the cover of Entertainment magazine for writing the most appealing movie soundtrack of the year.

Hope that helps.

It didn't...lol

im not good at theory or anything but you should first listen to alot of it, then you can obtain ideas from several pieces and make your own creation. Like i said, im an inexperienced 16 year old, but hey, it can happen.

Well... ... ... when you say classically sounding pieces I assume you mean in a vauge sense like Multiple themes, variety in dynamics and tempo, maybe more dramatic. I don't know if you mean orchestrated as well. The pieces you mentioned above use a big orchestra.

If you mean classical just in style (not the period but the pop definition of classical) and you don't mind if it's on the piano then you need to find some theory books and really study more then anything else structure, sonata form, rondo form, theme and variations to understand how a classical piece differes in structure from a rock piece with has a much more straight foward form or a new age piece which can have almost no form.

It maybe just the form itself which you are hearing as "classical"


Now classical music really differs in rock because it requires that the music tells the story rather then the lyrics. So it depends on a wide variety of techniques to imply drama.

So write like you would a story almost. Interesting you mentioned to great film scores as examples...the Lord of the Rings score is an incredibly complicated, sophisticated and emotional work of art...but notice that the goal of the film scorer is to write the music over the movie.

It must bring out the story through music and it does so through...

multiple themes (rings actually has over 50
different themes)
Large use of dynamic contrast
in the case of orchestration multiple instruments
harmony...tension and release, minor vs. major
variety in tempo (if the scene is tense...the
music maybe fast)
variety in texture (solo voice vs big thick
chords)


So for starters I would simply start by trying to tell a story using only the music. Get used to creating different sections, different themes, different effects (stacatto, legato, trills) to bring out your idea. And in the mean time get some books down at the library about different forms of music, as well as books on orchestration, and get scores and read along while you listen and see what the composers did that is always helpful no matter what level your at.

Ok thank you. When I listed those movie themes, can't you write songs with that same feel? Would that be considered classical if I just played a song like that on piano rather than with an orchestra?

Most classical composition training includes work in harmony, counterpoint, instrumentation and orchestration, and an enormous amount of analysis.

first off you are actually confusing me with the term song....(usually people are just picky about that term) but I actually need to know if you mean song as in something you would sing or Piece as in music for different instruments. Important to distinguish the two and in your case very important cause you are actually wanting to know how write a piece rather then the songs like you have been.

Here's how it goes, I'm not sure about Gladiator but I will assume it was written like a standard film score. For film scores you'll be interested to hear that the composer usually just writes down the themes and the harmonies in a very dull manner and then hand it over to an arranger to orchestrate it, manipulate the themes to fit the movie, basically all the fancy stuff you hear. So actually the stuff you hear in Gladiator and other films usually started off as a simple piano reduction.

If you want, and you may want to, you can go out and buy the simple piano versions of popular film scores and see what it would sound like just on piano.

Lord of the Rings is again an exception since Howard Shore actually wrote the piece like an opera in structure.


Now it's important we stop talking about film scores because for a film score the music must have the film to make sense...You could play themes from the movie and people may or may not reconize it as "classical" they would probably though reconize it more as a theme and that's all.

You want to write a complete piece with a begenning, middle and end. For a movie that takes 2-3 hours. However, you could still write a piece that sounds "classical" that lasts 3 minutes.

That "classical" feel your talking about is probably just structure. It has a begenning, middle, and end usually with some interesting harmony (like a key change or two) and a couple of themes to contrast. Maybe like you write the begenning in major, then a second theme in minor for the middle, then return to the first theme in major to finish. Something basic like that.

Is there any theory book in particular that you guys know of that can help compose?

I just write. I think it helps if you listen to classical music more (just don't copy it!). Also you need to feel inspired. If you are happy, write a major peice, if you are sad, a minor. Also, start with "easy" classical peices. Don't go out and try to write a big peice first try, because you probobly won't end up doing so well. Composing is an art just like piano is, and you have to learn how to do it. You don't just sit at the piano for the first time ever and play "The Dante" Sonata. You have to learn the easy stuff too. So, my advice to you is start small. Also, once you get more comfortable with writing, try writing for the orcheastra too. It opens a lot of doors in composing.

one thing i do... that helped tremendously.. and I BY NO MEANS am not a "composer".. just trying to develop...

ANY MUSICAL PHRASE.... no matter HOW SMALL... write it down. Even if you NEVER EVER DEVELOP IT... keep a spiral book of ledger paper... and keep it at your piano... If you think of something while you are away from your piano... try to lock it in your brain... if you remember it by the time you can jot it down... its worth jotting down.

I am currently developing a theme I wrote down 2 years ago... for my project in my music class. I think it is coming along nicely and in classical styling.. I should own finale 2005 by the time it is done... so I can upload it.

Good luck to you... It is fun!

I've got notes everywhere Neciebugg, they're great later on when and if you want to go back to them.

Hi TremolO,

You've gotten some good responses. The thing you have to know is composing in a classical manner means that you have to really understand the guts of music. There's no shortcut. When I was in high school I played in bands and wrote rock 'n roll so I have some understanding of your situation. It's now more than 30 years later and I haven't written any rock 'n roll in a decade or two, but I still enjoy writing classical music. I'm still learning how to do it, every new piece is an exploration of some kind. One thing I've noticed is that when I think I know what I'm doing is when I write the least inspired music. Start now and never stop until it's involuntary.

Cheers,

you know speaking of Lord of the Rings it may interest you to know that Howard Shore started out as a player in the rock band Lighthouse. He attended the Berklee college of music a few years priorer and divided up his time between school and road tours. He later became the original music director for SNL when him and a group of friends got together to create an improv show. From there he made his way into film scores for movies like "The Fly" and "seven" finally he met with Peter Jackson and worked on Lord of the Rings for about 4 years.

Now if you are familiar with the Lord of the Rings score you would realize that it is not just an ordinary movie score but a very sophisticated, well crafted piece of art. Interesting that a rock and roller who knew virtually nothing about the technical aspects of composing eventually went on to compose what should be and will be once published, performed and properly analyzed, a very important work of the 21st century and it proves that with dedication and motivation you can achieve some great things.

I seriously doubt Shore "knew virtually nothing about the technical aspects of composing." Berklee has one of the most rigorous music programs in the United States.

Some of the classes offered by their composition department:


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Number Name
AR-228 A Survey of Jazz Composition and Arranging
COND-311 Advanced Conducting Seminar with Live Orchestra
COND-351 Advanced Conducting Workshop with Live Keyboard Ensemble
CP-213 Advanced Counterpoint
AR-407 Advanced Jazz Arranging for Large Ensemble
COND-421 Advanced Rehearsal Techniques
LHAN-385 Analysis of Sonata Forms
AR-328 Arranging for Contemporary Jazz Ensemble
LHAN-372 Bartok’s Chamber Music
LHAN-371 Beethoven String Quartets
AR-331 Big Band Arranging and Score Analysis
CM-351 Choral Composition
AR-201 Chord Scale Voicings for Arranging
CM-495 Composition Internship
LHAN-261 Concert Music after 1945
COND-211 Conducting 1
COND-212 Conducting 2
COND-361 Conducting for Film and TV Production
AR-321 Contemporary Arranging and Composition
CM-311 Contemporary Techniques in Composition 1
CM-312 Contemporary Techniques in Composition 2
CM-398 Directed Study in Composition of Small Forms
COND-498 Directed Study in Conducting
CM-499 Directed Study in Jazz Composition
CM-498 Directed Study in Orchestral Composition
CM-497 Directed Study in Sonata Composition
LHAN-373 Early Chamber Music of Arnold Schoenberg
LHAN-251 General Music History 1
LHAN-252 General Music History 2
LHAN-211 History of Western Music 1
LHAN-212 History of Western Music 2
CM-231 Instrumentation and Score Preparation
AR-340 Jazz Arranging for Small Ensemble
CM-371 Jazz Composition I
CM-373 Jazz Composition II
CM-375 Jazz Composition III
JC-495 Jazz Composition Internship
CP-361 Jazz Counterpoint 1
CP-362 Jazz Counterpoint 2
CM-345 Jazz Fusion Composition and Arranging for Small Ensemble
LHAN-353 Music of Charles Mingus
LHAN-352 Music of Duke Ellington
LHAN-375 Music of Igor Stravinsky
LHAN-374 Music of J.S. Bach
CM-385 Postbebop Harmonic Innovations
CM-355 Principles and Techniques of Writing for the Voice
CW-441 Scoring for Full Orchestra
CW-341 Scoring for Strings
LHAN-381 Seminal Composers of the Twentieth Century
CM-434 Serial Techniques as Applied to Jazz Composition

Here's a quote from Howard Shore off the Berklee website


"There was nothing in my mind back at Berklee that sent me in this direction," Shore says. "Actually, when I did my first films, I developed all my own techniques, because I was kind of isolated. So I read books and figured things out on my own. I was like somebody putting a motorcycle together that didn't know much about motorcycles. You know, I got some parts here, and had an idea of how it worked. But I figured out a way to do it, and over the years, I've kind of used the same techniques. I did a lot of my early movies with just a calculator, to figure out timings. I had to learn it all myself."

The technical aspects he seems to be talking about relate more to scoring techniques than the actual nuts and bolts of music theory.

I guess I could be way wrong, that he learned nothing at Berklee, but everybody I've met from the school has been remarkably well-trained.

Exactly, Kreisler. It's not at all like writing your regular pop song. I also think that with the comment snap apple posted, the composer was referring to techniques for working with film music specifically, as in dealing with timecodes and maybe sound FX, matching your composition's arrangements to the action onscreen, etc... you can't definately compose, arrange and write memorable music for orchestras if you don't get the education you mentioned.

Just imagine this: in a full blown orchestral composition you have to write music for two violin sections plus the concertino, one or two viola sections, cellos and bass sections, wood and brass wind sections, percussions sections, a four to eight part choir with maybe two soloists... all these following certain harmony rules depending on what you want your music to sound like, then know how to score it for each instrument (and it involves knowing how the instruments are tuned, their pitch range and their technique for playing so you don't write incoherencies or unplayable melodies)... all this while making it say what you want to say (taking into account that what you wanna say it's worth saying)... and to sum things up -if itīs music for a film- you gotta make it last certain exact amount of frames and match what's happening on the screen...
would you still think it's as easy as "listen more orchestral music" and learning how to use a notation/sequencing program with a "built in" MIDI orchestra? In my opinion, you definately NEED education for it.

uh huh....it's not easy, in fact Lord of the Rings is over a 200 piece orchestra with some very unique folk and percussion instruments as well. But I can believe him because you'd be surprised as to how much great information you can learn from deep study of scores even by strictly copying note for note other composers works and following thier scores (cause when you actually physically write it out, even if it's mechanically copying, it forces you to focus on every detail of the score and why it's important) So just studing scores on your own can teach you a ton of information. Reading books on orchestrating and theory will supplement your score reading and listen and can also teach you a tremendous amount of info...and Howard said he spent a lot of time reading and studing.

But from other interviews I've heard it sounds like he didn't spend to much time at Berklee but more on the road with his band. I too, thought that Berklee is where he got all his education but the more I hear the more it doesn't seem like so and it doesn't even seem like film scoring was an issue for him at the time, but life ended up taking him in that direction.

"I had a rock-n-roll career, I had a television career as well, This film career is interesting. It's part three, and there's probably a part four somewhere in there. But they're all part of a musical journey."-Howard Shore

Study full scores. The Planets (Gustav Holst) is cheap and easily available in a Dover score. I know it isn't a film score, but if so many film composers are going to persist in ripping it off, you may as well get your start that way too.