|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
73 members (AaronSF, apianostudent, beeboss, brdwyguy, benkeys, Abdulrohmanoman, 15 invisible),
2,241
guests, and
453
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,480
2000 Post Club Member
|
OP
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,480 |
Who really made it easier for the transition from the classical period and conventions to the more Romantic idiom? 1) Beethoven 2) Schubert 3) Some other guy (And as Sam and I always state: please explain your point of view ) Sorry if I offend anyone with my crude simple uneducated question. Because I know such transition can not rely on only one composer. But there must this one who just .. you know what I mean. I know this will largely depend on how one views the 'Romantic idiom'. Educational replies to reform my ignorance are most welcomed. I expect a serious hot debate.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,509
5000 Post Club Member
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,509 |
i've always thought of the classical-to-romantic bridge as taking place as a baton passed from beethoven to brahms.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163 |
Originally posted by Bassio: Who really made it easier for the transition from the classical period and conventions to the more Romantic idiom?
1) Beethoven 2) Schubert 3) Some other guy
I think this is a different question from the one in the thread's title, with perhaps a different answer. I don't have an answer to the first question. To this one, I would say "some other guy": Johann Nepomuk Hummel, at least as regards the transition from Mozart to Chopin. I won't attempt to offer evidence of this viewpoint, though, as I believe it's already well documented by historical facts and very apparent in Hummel's piano music, too.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,868
9000 Post Club Member
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,868 |
I'd say Beethoven -- ignoring Rossini, Beethoven was probably the most famous composer/musician in Europe during his time, and I'm guessing he had many imitators. Schubert was popular in his circle, and certainly had an influence as well. I think it'd be hard to pick a first, and probably 'romanticism' evolved over time. Remember also that it began in literature, not music -- those poets that Sulzer called "effeminate" because they expressed their emotions to the extreme, for example. There may have been certain romantic trends that picked up during the late 1700s, so by the time Schubert was born, a part of "romanticism" was already becoming mainstream, only to then be added to until we get a much clearer perception of a clear movement, "romanticism", with guys like Chopin and Liszt. As a side note, here are a few paintings: First, a painting of Beethoven by his friend, Mahler (no, not THE Mahler!) Beethoven loved it so much that he had it on his wall his entire life, after it was painted in 1803. Look first at the left side -- that's the classical side: roman archictecture, a lyre, his right hand, very clear details. Then look on the right side -- that's the romantic side: very dark and undetailed, you can't even see what he's sitting on, stormy sky, barren tree in the top right... Interestingly enough, Beethoven has his back turned to the romantic side, although it looks like his eyes are peering behind him. I think this shows how he was very much a part of the classical tradition, and yet at the same time he was looking forward. Remember, he loved this painting. Here's another painting, called "The Wanderer above the Mist", by Caspar David Friedrich. It's very romantic: nature scene, stormy waves, the person has his back to the viewer. If the classical world was more about popularity and pleasing the crowd, romanticim was very much about introspection, privacy, and escape from society. The character here, "The Wanderer", is lost in his own thoughts, which are unknown to the viewer, above the mist. Romanticism represented a sort of turning away from society: this was essentially the creation of "art for art's sake", focus on "the musical work", the rise of "classical composers."
Sam
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047 |
Building on Sam's point that it started not with music but with romantic literature, I'll go with Schubert, as he picked up that literature and set it to song. And so the baton is passed.
Tomasino
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,506
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,506 |
I would say Schubert is the 1st full-fledged Romantist.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 921
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 921 |
A lot of people consider it to be Beethoven, but I would say that it is most certainly Schubert. I never found Beethoven's late piano music to be completely romantic in nature, but Schubert's music of the same period is more romantic than Beethoven's, in my opinion.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837 |
Beethoven beats Schubert.
Exhibit 1: "An die ferne Geliebte" Exhibit 2: Last movement of Op. 90
Though I could see one make a pretty strong case for someone like John Field or Johann Baptiste Cramer. Relatively unknown today, but enormously influential in their own time.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13
Junior Member
|
Junior Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13 |
Originally posted by phonehome: A lot of people consider it to be Beethoven, but I would say that it is most certainly Schubert. I never found Beethoven's late piano music to be completely romantic in nature, but Schubert's music of the same period is more romantic than Beethoven's, in my opinion. As per my understanding, Beethoven's 'romanticism' is mostly applicable to his middle period works. The late piano sonatas and quartets probably don't fit in any category, neither romantic not classical. Boogie-woogie comparisons of Op 111 aside, was there ever a line of works by others that followed in the style of Late Beethoven?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 32,060
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 32,060 |
Semipro Tech
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 314 |
very interesting painting essay, Sam. But being one generation younger, Schubert definetely was more free from the classical style than Beethoven. Yet some would say the first romantic was Mozart himself, as seen in his late operas, symphonies and piano concertos... devilish passions, free artist etc...
gggEb!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 115
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 115 |
Definitely Beethoven... As pianoid written Mozart's later works do have a touch of romanticism but in Beethoven's music there is something that was not there before him. I mean look at his symphonies, piano sonatas and other works. Even his earliest sonatas do no fit perfectly to the classical period, even the very first. I know I can't make my point here with the words, but I just know it is Beethoven Another related question that bugs me, who was the last true Romantic?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,931
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,931 |
Aren't some of you forgetting Carl Maria von Weber? I do believe he's often cited as the first musical romantic tho the contention for that honor is certainly debatable as evidenced by the proposal of other contenders in the previous posts. With the publication of Lyrical Ballads in 1798, the 'official' start of the Romantic period begins in the literary world by William Wordsworth. Music tends to come later than trends in art and literature so fixing a definite date and person is somewhat difficult to do.
Best wishes in the resolution of this 'search.'
Ralph
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,230
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,230 |
I think Schubert was the first great composer who in his works began to shift towards the free forms of Romanticism. Putting aside formal considerations for a while, Mozart is a strong contender with his ghost-world chromaticism. It took Beethoven his whole long life to get anywhere near Mozart in that respect. Look at the first page of Mozart's KV 465, for example (and that written when Mozart was 28):
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639
7000 Post Club Member
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639 |
The title of the thread was, "In your opinion, Who was the first Romantic?" In keeping with that, I will answer J.S. Bach. Much of his choral music is especially so. The ending to the St Matthew Passion, for example, is emotionally gut wrenching to the extreme. The form, of course, was not.
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,480
2000 Post Club Member
|
OP
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,480 |
Great replies guys keep em coming! You guys have very informative opinions. And I really want to go to listen to the examples (as those posted by Kreisler) to see what is the 'Romantic' element they may have. But still I guess if one can only define 'the properties' of Romanticism. Is it breaking the forms loose? Is it introducing new forms? Or is it the emotion that counts? What is your opinion here? Interesting. Scoring
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,480
2000 Post Club Member
|
OP
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,480 |
Originally posted by Antonius Hamus:
Putting aside formal considerations for a while, Mozart is a strong contender with his ghost-world chromaticism. It took Beethoven his whole long life to get anywhere near Mozart in that respect. Interesting observation but Bach was already doing that in his cradle .. in 128 voices at once Not to mention others who came before him. Really, do you see a link between chromaticism and Romaticism Antonius?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,392
9000 Post Club Member
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,392 |
Originally posted by Bassio: Schubert: 4 AndrewG phonehome Antonius Hamus
argerichfan
Jason
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163 |
Originally posted by Bassio: [b]Other guys: 4including Hummel 2 Weber 1 Bach 1 [/b] I'd like to think somebody else stepped up for Hummel (specifically vis-à -vis Mozart and Chopin, anyway), but actually it's two votes for Weber at this point—or were you counting both me and my avatar?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047 |
Schubert: 5
AndrewG phonehome Antonius Hamus argerichfan Tomasino
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,480
2000 Post Club Member
|
OP
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,480 |
Originally posted by argerichfan: Originally posted by Bassio: [b]Schubert: 4 AndrewG phonehome Antonius Hamus
argerichfan [/b]You lazy pro-Schubertist .. at least throw an opinion or a comment why you chose him .. do not just leaving us hanging there So you say Schubert. What can I make of that? Pancakes? :p (Or I won't count your vote )
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,480
2000 Post Club Member
|
OP
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,480 |
Originally posted by Sotto Voce: Originally posted by Bassio: [b][b]Other guys: 4 including Hummel 2 Weber 1 Bach 1 [/b] I'd like to think somebody else stepped up for Hummel (specifically vis-à -vis Mozart and Chopin, anyway), but actually it's two votes for Weber at this point—or were you counting both me and my (avatar? [/b]Sorry Update - the first romantic: Beethoven: 4 pique pianojerome Kreisler wisredz Schubert: (5) AndrewG phonehome Antonius Hamus Tomasino (argerichfan) - waiting for a non-nonsensical reply :p Other guys: 4 including Hummel 1 Weber 2 Bach 1
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,392
9000 Post Club Member
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,392 |
Originally posted by Bassio: Or I won't count your vote You bloody will count that vote! :p One could make a good case for Weber as the first romantic, and Der Freischutz is often cited in favour of him. I happen to love that opera, but truth to tell, it doesn't seem to export very well outside of Germany.(1) The Lortzing operettas are another good example. So I went with Schubert (and agreeing with posts earlier in the thread) because he literally transcends his country of origin. Hope that makes sense. Okay, Bassio? (1) Sort of like Elgar -whom I'm always chirping about- in England.
Jason
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047 |
Picking up on Sam's point that romanticism first appeared in literature, and my therefore voting for Schubert, as he was the first to seriously commit to setting romantic poetry to song, can we then make a safe generalization that vocal music led the way from poetry to romantic music, and that vocal music is more innately romantic. The forms of poetry and of music did not gel easily. Poetry demanded free form.
Someone above suggested Bach as the first romantic, citing the passions--vocal music--while Jason brings up Carl Maria von Weber and FreiSchuetz. Again, vocal music.
Also, to me, romanticism in music has as much to do with line as with a wandering tonality.
Tomasino
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,895
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,895 |
I'll second the vote for Bach. Just about anything you use to describe Romantic music, has already been done by old JSB. In his own way, of course...
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,230
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,230 |
Originally posted by Bassio: Bach was already doing that in his cradle .. in 128 voices at once
Not to mention others who came before him.None of them was doing anything with more than four-note chords, though. Originally posted by Bassio: Really, do you see a link between chromaticism and Romanticism Antonius? . Not really. But a certain ahead-of-his-time quality is often associated with tonal ambiguity and heavy chromaticism in, especially, pre-19th century works. So, if Mozart could be shown to have been fifty years ahead of his time, then he would have to be called a Romantic, since the year 1835 belongs to the Romantic period. :p
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,117
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,117 |
Why isn't the Mozart vote counted - I'll second it. Chopin was a romantic composer, but if you listen to the 4 voices (solo) parts of Mozarts Requiem, the opera arias or the adagios from the late piano concerts they have the same ; freedom to the performer, strong emotions and unexpected musical turns.
Ragnhild
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163 |
Originally posted by Ragnhild:
Chopin was a romantic composer, but if you listen to the 4 voices parts of Mozarts Requiem, the opera arias or the adagios from the late piano concerts they have the same ; freedom to the performer, strong emotions and unexpected musical turns. I'm not familiar with opera, generally speaking, so I can't say whether one would expect to find precedent for Chopin's bel canto melodies in Mozart's arias. (I had thought it was associated primarily with Rossini and Bellini.) But, especially as regards what everyone considers typical Chopinesque roulades and fioriture, Chopin was unquestionably influenced (to put it mildly) by the piano writing of—you guessed it—Mozart's pupil and protégé, Johann Nepomuk Hummel. From Wikipedia: "His [Hummel's] music reflects the transition from the Classical to the Romantic musical era." (No, I did not write that!) I believe that the ongoing Hummel revival of the last two decades—beginning, it seems, in 1983 with the popular Wynton Marsalis CD of the trumpet concerto, and sustained by Stephen Hough's superlative CD of Hummel's two finest piano concertos in 1987, is not without reason or without merit. But you already knew that from my avatar! It surely was another milestone in this Hummel revival when strains from the Allegro of piano concerto Op. 89—one of those on the Hough recording—wafted from a radio while Agent Scully was trying to enjoy her vacation in an episode from the fifth season of The X-Files. I guess I'll consider the transformation of Hummel's reputation complete when recordings are released of his music as background for performing other activities, in the manner of the dubious "Shacking Up to Chopin" mentioned in another thread! Steven
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 314 |
Originally posted by Sotto Voce: I can't say whether one would expect to find precedent for Chopin's bel canto melodies in Mozart's arias... Chopin was unquestionably influenced (to put it mildly) by the piano writing of—you guessed it—Mozart's pupil and protégé, Johann Nepomuk Hummel.
Chopin loved Mozart and studied with Hummel. Sure he's influenced.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sotto Voce: It surely was another milestone in this Hummel revival when strains from the Allegro of piano concerto Op. 89—one of those on the Hough recording—wafted from a radio while Agent Scully was trying to enjoy her vacation in an episode from the fifth season of The X-Files. Well, I guess the truth is out there!
gggEb!
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 169
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 169 |
My first reply to this was to be "Adam and Eve." But since the question implied, "Who was the first romantic in classical music?", I'd have to go with Jubal, mentioned in Genesis 4:21 as having been "the father of all such as handle the harp and organ." The piano is a merely a harp brought to its logical conclusion. The number of persons wooed into matrimony via the harp must be legendary. The technically-superior pianoforte has always had romantic aspects as well, especially after the advent of gushy Romantic music. How many husbands did Teresa Carreno have?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639
7000 Post Club Member
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639 |
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,366
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,366 |
I'm going to have to vote P.D.Q Bach!
Or actually, I think I'll stay with J.S.
Practice makes permanent - Perfect practice makes perfect.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,230
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,230 |
Originally posted by Ragnhild: Why isn't the Mozart vote counted Mine? No, no... I voted for Schubert; just mentioned Mozart as a strong contender if formal considerations were abandoned... I actually think that labeling as Romantic all the composers who were born and died in the 19th century is quite a sweeping and suspicious act of categorization. My last post kind of satirized this academicism. (Did you know that musicologists had so much trouble placing Gesualdo and his chromaticism that for many decades, up until the last decade or two, they just brushed him off as a scribbling amateur who didn't know what he was doing? This led Stravinsky in the 70s to publicly hope that Gesualdo would once be saved from musicologists.)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,990
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,990 |
Actually I believe Friedrich Kalkbrenner is one of the first Romantic composers, and had an influence on Chopin and others that followed. http://www.answers.com/topic/friedrich-kalkbrenner He helped in the advancement with many of the piano playing techniques we use today. John
Current works in progress:
Beethoven Sonata Op. 10 No. 2 in F, Haydn Sonata Hoboken XVI:41, Bach French Suite No. 5 in G BWV 816
Current instruments: Schimmel-Vogel 177T grand, Roland LX-17 digital, and John Lyon unfretted Saxon clavichord.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163 |
Originally posted by John Citron: Actually I believe Friedrich Kalkbrenner is one of the first Romantic composers, and had an influence on Chopin and others that followed.
I recently noticed that Howard Shelley has recorded two of Kalkbrenner's piano concertos. (Not much point mentioning it in the "underplayed concerti" thread, though—I think a concerto probably needs to be a part of the standard performing repertoire to qualify.) By the way, Chopin didn't study with Hummel. When Chopin first arrived in Paris, Kalkbrenner offered him lessons. He declined. Specifically as regards the origins of influences on Chopin, I think Moscheles must be mentioned along with Hummel and Kalkbrenner. I'm not familiar with much Moscheles beyond the Op. 70 studies, but Howard Shelley has recorded his piano concertos, too. I didn't expect to find a website dedicated to Moscheles !
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,990
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,990 |
Originally posted by Sotto Voce: Originally posted by John Citron: [b] Actually I believe Friedrich Kalkbrenner is one of the first Romantic composers, and had an influence on Chopin and others that followed.
I recently noticed that Howard Shelley has recorded two of Kalkbrenner's piano concertos. (Not much point mentioning it in the "underplayed concerti" thread, though—I think a concerto probably needs to be a part of the standard performing repertoire to qualify.)
By the way, Chopin didn't study with Hummel. When Chopin first arrived in Paris, Kalkbrenner offered him lessons. He declined.
Specifically as regards the origins of influences on Chopin, I think Moscheles must be mentioned along with Hummel and Kalkbrenner. I'm not familiar with much Moscheles beyond the Op. 70 studies, but Howard Shelley has recorded his piano concertos, too. I didn't expect to find a website dedicated to Moscheles ! [/b]Moscheles is quite a musical figure, and played a great part in the advancements in pianos and piano-technique as we know it today. Unfortunately his music has not been heard that often in the past, and I think this has pushed him into obscurity. It's only recently, with the interest in early music, and more obscure composers that he and others are being rediscovered. I came across one of his sonatas, and this piece was quite difficult. In some ways it was still very Classical yet in others he was hinting towards the Romantics in the way he moved the themes and harmonics. Another composer from the same period to think about too as a transitional Classical to Romantic is Georges Onslow. He was a student of Cramer and wrote some very interesting piano pieces. In some ways these pieces are like Mendelssohn's, and in others they're more like Schubert's. John
Current works in progress:
Beethoven Sonata Op. 10 No. 2 in F, Haydn Sonata Hoboken XVI:41, Bach French Suite No. 5 in G BWV 816
Current instruments: Schimmel-Vogel 177T grand, Roland LX-17 digital, and John Lyon unfretted Saxon clavichord.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,501
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,501 |
If you mean complete Romanticism, it's Schubert. Beethoven was a revolutionary, but there was always a rough-hewn feeling of robust classicism in Beethoven... even in the strange experiments Op. 130+.
Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 233
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 233 |
I've been taught that Beethoven started the romantic era in his 3rd Symphony, the 3rd note, since he modulates at that point.
I've also been taught that Schubert and Brahms were the true first romantics.
That being said, I would vote for John Field, but I'm not familiar enough with his music to make a case for it, so Beethoven it is.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 387
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 387 |
there's a difference between being a romantic and ushering in the romantic movement in music. i go with bach on the former, and schubert on the latter. schubert's smaller forms, with freer form, helped get it started (i.e. wanderer fantasy, impromptus, etc.).
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 892
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 892 |
Beethoven never abandoned the classical style. If you want "a new music" that heralds a new era then it must be Weber. Do people realise how late Brahms is?
John
Vasa inania multum strepunt.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 892
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 892 |
Bach, for all his wonderful emotional music, never broke the mold in a classical-romantic way. Romanticism is not about cramming deep emotions - music of all periods has that.
John
Vasa inania multum strepunt.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
5000 Post Club Member
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921 |
John Field needs to be in here someplace.
Slow down and do it right.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 395
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 395 |
To the original question (Who really made it easier for the transition from the classical period and conventions to the more Romantic idiom?) my answer is Mozart. Besides some strong allusions to him in the posts above, I think the main point of Romanticism is it's critical stance towards rationalism. Mozart was as a first struggling strongly with rationalism, listen to Le nozze di Figaro, for instance. The other question (Who was the first romantic?) is harder to answer as it's unclear whether one romantic phase would do, or whether the question means, who was nothing but Romantic. Take the great German writers Goethe and Schiller. They are well know to have had both a 'Klassik' and a 'Sturm und Drang' (+/- Romantic) period.
Robert Kenessy
.. it seems to me that the inherent nature [of the piano tone] becomes really expressive only by means of the present tendency to use the piano as a percussion instrument - Béla Bartók, early 1927.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,405
Posts3,349,434
Members111,637
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|