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#527619 - 08/17/03 12:42 PM Re: Ballad No. 1 Op. 23 (Chopin)
Brendan Offline


Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5535
Loc: McAllen, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kreisler:
And why do you think everyone wants to play Rach 3? It's easy to understand musically - or at least much more so than the Brahms concerti (which nobody seems to ask about.) This is why everyone asks to play it. [/b]
It's also the reason why everyone is asked to play it (or #2). If a orchestra asks a pianist for Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky, Liszt, Chopin, or Prokofiev, in 5 months, the pianist will likely do it. However, if they ask for either of the Brahms, the pianist is more likely to look at their schedule and say "I don't think I have enough time."
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#527620 - 08/17/03 08:30 PM Re: Ballad No. 1 Op. 23 (Chopin)
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
pianoloverus,

 Quote:
The meanings of words can change and I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years(due to it's overwhelming usage by young people) the word "song" will be an acceptable(according to the dictionary definition) synonym for what you and I would call "piece".
I doubt it! Not as long as there are caring people around to point out the inaccuracy of using the word 'song' for a piece that is not a 'song'.


 Quote:
There is little enough interest in classical music already and I think this constant need on some people's part to correct those who use the word "song" just turns more people off to classical music.
You are factually wrong on the first point, interest in classical music is not down. And IMO you are also wrong on the second point. I think anyone interested in classical music is going to be eager to learn the correct lingo and will be thankful that someone had the consideration to further their learning.

When I was in high school band, our music director, Mr. Rondinoni, would NOT let us get away with using the word 'song' if it was not appropriate. I'm quite glad he did this.

Why bastardize the language?
_________________________
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#527621 - 08/18/03 07:40 AM Re: Ballad No. 1 Op. 23 (Chopin)
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 21416
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
pianoloverus,

 Quote:
The meanings of words can change and I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years(due to it's overwhelming usage by young people) the word "song" will be an acceptable(according to the dictionary definition) synonym for what you and I would call "piece".
I doubt it! Not as long as there are caring people around to point out the inaccuracy of using the word 'song' for a piece that is not a 'song'.


 Quote:
There is little enough interest in classical music already and I think this constant need on some people's part to correct those who use the word "song" just turns more people off to classical music.
You are factually wrong on the first point, interest in classical music is not down. And IMO you are also wrong on the second point. I think anyone interested in classical music is going to be eager to learn the correct lingo and will be thankful that someone had the consideration to further their learning.

[/b]
(1) Since the way people use a word can easily determine it's accepted(dictionary) meaning (and most young people today use 'song' for what you call 'piece'), it's seems likely that "song' and 'piece' will soon be interchangable.

(2)I'm not at all sure that most people who correct other people's use of the word 'song' do it because they are "caring". I think they are sometimes annoyed(as I was in the beginning) because it sounds so wrong or silly to their ears.

(3)I did not say interest in classical music is down(although it probably is), I said there is "little enough interest in classical music" which is definitely true. I don't have the exact figure, but I've read numerous time that around 10%(I think the figure is actually less) of the population listens to classical music on any sort of a regular basis. The audiences at the concerts I regularly attend is getting older and older(with the exceptions of the younger Asians). And to the best of my knowledge, sales of classical recordings are down(although I'm not postitive of this one).

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#527622 - 08/18/03 07:08 PM Re: Ballad No. 1 Op. 23 (Chopin)
Krazypaul Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 133
Just out of curiousity, what would be an average age or "level"(in terms of years of experience if that would be more precise) of a pianist when he/she would play or even attempt the hungarian rhapsodies?

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#527623 - 08/19/03 07:27 PM Re: Ballad No. 1 Op. 23 (Chopin)
Krazypaul Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 133
I guess no one knows or have an idea?

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#527624 - 08/19/03 11:32 PM Re: Ballad No. 1 Op. 23 (Chopin)
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Krazypaul, I'm sorry I have no idea.

pianoloverus,
 Quote:
(1) Since the way people use a word can easily determine it's accepted(dictionary) meaning (and most young people today use 'song' for what you call 'piece'), it's seems likely that "song' and 'piece' will soon be interchangable.

(2)I'm not at all sure that most people who correct other people's use of the word 'song' do it because they are "caring". I think they are sometimes annoyed(as I was in the beginning) because it sounds so wrong or silly to their ears.

(3)I did not say interest in classical music is down(although it probably is), I said there is "little enough interest in classical music" which is definitely true. I don't have the exact figure, but I've read numerous time that around 10%(I think the figure is actually less) of the population listens to classical music on any sort of a regular basis. The audiences at the concerts I regularly attend is getting older and older(with the exceptions of the younger Asians). And to the best of my knowledge, sales of classical recordings are down(although I'm not postitive of this one).
(1) I don't recall society ever giving the young a right to redefine words--it's not so simple as that. Your students could just as well decide that an ellipse is close enough to a circle and start calling it that!

(2) It sounds wrong to my ears because it is wrong. True, we sometimes react stronger, but all in all, speaking for myself, I correct this usage because 1) I care very much for music and 2) I care that young (and older) people learn the proper terminology that goes with learning the art.

(3) Question is, has the percentage of people who listen to classical music ever been much greater than it is now? I don't know the answer, but I don't think so. I do not think low attendance at concerts is a reflection of people's interest in classical music. I think it is more probably a reflection of the hideous cost of a ticket. As big a music lover as I am, I do not go to the NY Philharmonic very often. It is prohibitively expensive... another issue, another topic for another thread.
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#527625 - 08/20/03 03:52 PM Re: Ballad No. 1 Op. 23 (Chopin)
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 21416
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
pianoloverus,
 Quote:
(1) Since the way people use a word can easily determine it's accepted(dictionary) meaning (and most young people today use 'song' for what you call 'piece'), it's seems likely that "song' and 'piece' will soon be interchangable.

(2)I'm not at all sure that most people who correct other people's use of the word 'song' do it because they are "caring". I think they are sometimes annoyed(as I was in the beginning) because it sounds so wrong or silly to their ears.

(3)I did not say interest in classical music is down(although it probably is), I said there is "little enough interest in classical music" which is definitely true. I don't have the exact figure, but I've read numerous time that around 10%(I think the figure is actually less) of the population listens to classical music on any sort of a regular basis. The audiences at the concerts I regularly attend is getting older and older(with the exceptions of the younger Asians). And to the best of my knowledge, sales of classical recordings are down(although I'm not postitive of this one).
(1) I don't recall society ever giving the young a right to redefine words--it's not so simple as that. Your students could just as well decide that an ellipse is close enough to a circle and start calling it that!

(2) It sounds wrong to my ears because it is wrong. True, we sometimes react stronger, but all in all, speaking for myself, I correct this usage because 1) I care very much for music and 2) I care that young (and older) people learn the proper terminology that goes with learning the art.

(3) Question is, has the percentage of people who listen to classical music ever been much greater than it is now? I don't know the answer, but I don't think so. I do not think low attendance at concerts is a reflection of people's interest in classical music. I think it is more probably a reflection of the hideous cost of a ticket. As big a music lover as I am, I do not go to the NY Philharmonic very often. It is prohibitively expensive... another issue, another topic for another thread. [/b]
(1)It's not a question of rights or young people. It's simply that usage can determine meaning, so if a word is used a certain way it may take on that meaning.

(2) I never said that that using "song" as a synonym for "piece" was correct. I think it is far more important to make sure the small number of teenagers who are interested in classical music are not turned off by being too quick to correct them. Together, the music teacher at my school(who I mentioned as using "song'in my original post) and I have 50 years experience working with teenagers.

(3)The question was whether or not a very small % of the entire population is interested in classical music. The answer is yes. I don't doubt your motivation is genuine but why risk making it smaller?

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#527626 - 08/20/03 04:23 PM Re: Ballad No. 1 Op. 23 (Chopin)
Orlando Gibbons Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 848
Loc: CA
(1) :rolleyes:

(2)

(3)
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