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#529790 - 09/11/07 02:15 PM Joyce Hatto Redux
Aldous Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 65
Loc: New York City
This from the latest "The New Yorker":

http://www.andrys.com/Hatto-by-Singer.pdf
_________________________
Ich grolle nicht.

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#529791 - 09/11/07 03:07 PM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
it's a good read for sure.

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#529792 - 09/11/07 04:22 PM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21399
Loc: Oakland
Posting that is undoubtedly copyright infringement. If you want to read it, buy the magazine.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#529793 - 09/11/07 05:48 PM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8841
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
And UK members, the magazine is available in London. BDB, thanks for making the point about copyright infringement.
_________________________
Jason

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#529794 - 09/11/07 07:26 PM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
Aldous Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 65
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
Posting that is undoubtedly copyright infringement. If you want to read it, buy the magazine. [/b]
You would be wrong about that.

Permission was granted to the following website to post the article and to allow others to download it.

Obviously, "The New Yorker" has much to gain from the publicity, and even more to be grateful for, since this website has methodically laid all the research groundwork for the content manifested in this article.

But, thank you for attempting to insult me. It's a great welcome to this Forum. \:D

http://www.andrys.com/hatto.html#news
_________________________
Ich grolle nicht.

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#529795 - 09/11/07 11:52 PM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
Andrys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 41
Loc: Berkeley, California
Hi, -
Yes, I was given permission to forward my advance copy to anyone I liked, so I offer it to the interested. But I also ask that people support the magazine. Amazingly, the entire New Yorker history is on 9 DVDs for only $30 there.

I describe the article and point to both the full online article that is in HTML on their site now and more readable (on the monitor) which one can print out via their print version. It's text without the usual non-related cartoons and poetry if that's preferred but the cartoons and poetry are quite worthwhile.

I also point to the article's associated audio that, while it is highlighted on their current week's front page, is not obvious within the HTML article box itself. It is now on the left column but after this week might not be as prominently displayed.

I cannot recommend this article too highly. It's by far the most thorough and well-written one I've read, and the associated audio file acts both as introduction to the article and as a supplement in that it describes and explains the waveform analyses for the mainstream New Yorker readers who may not have heard about the story as most of us have.

My permalink, since more current articles at New Yorker and at my own news-history site, will move it a bit more out of sight eventually, is
http://www.andrys.com/hatto.html#newyorker

- Andrys
_________________________
- Andrys, hobbyist, intermediate level
Hobbyist mp3 site

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#529796 - 09/12/07 01:05 AM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21399
Loc: Oakland
The New Yorker website says: The material on this site may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, cached, or otherwise used, except with the prior written permission of CondéNet Inc. I still have not seen that written permission. It undoubtedly has not been granted to PianoWorld, which probably makes the link on this page infringement.

It is unfortunate if anyone is insulted, but certainly I have done nothing wrong. It is your responsibility to show us that you are not breaking the terms of use for the New Yorker website.

If you want to fix it, use the Edit command, and link to the New Yorker website.

At some point you may find yourself getting income through intellectual property. You may wish that others will be as careful with it then.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#529797 - 09/12/07 01:30 AM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
Aldous Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 65
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:


I still have not seen that written permission. It undoubtedly has not been granted to PianoWorld, which probably makes the link on this page infringement.

At some point you may find yourself getting income through intellectual property. You may wish that others will be as careful with it then. [/b]
Your concern is certainly quite high-minded and laudable, but I do have a question:

The icon used in Argerichfan's posts uses a reproduction of a Deutsche Grammophon CD cover that incorporates the intellectual property of a graphic designer and a photographer. Do we need to see written proof of permission in this instance as well?

Are you worried about PianoWorld's liability here, too?
_________________________
Ich grolle nicht.

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#529798 - 09/12/07 02:44 PM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
Mary-Rose Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/16/06
Posts: 1428
Loc: Essex, England
 Quote:
Originally posted by Aldous:
The icon used in Argerichfan's posts uses a reproduction of a Deutsche Grammophon CD cover that incorporates the intellectual property of a graphic designer and a photographer. Do we need to see written proof of permission in this instance as well?

Are you worried about PianoWorld's liability here, too? [/b]
No answer was the loud reply - surprise, surprise!

I for one would like to thank you for drawing our attention to the article, Aldous. For me, it shed a new light on the character of Joyce Hatto's husband.
_________________________
Best wishes from MR
http://www.extraloudpurrs.blogspot.com

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#529799 - 09/12/07 02:57 PM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3456
Loc: US
I've followed this story for a while-- it is truly fascinating and troubling at the same time. I've thought that the choice of "Concert Artist" for their label, which abbreviates conveniently to "Con Artist", was a sly wink and nudge at the world by the two of them. I find it hard to believe she was not aware of what was going on.

Sophia

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#529800 - 09/12/07 04:31 PM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
Andrys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 41
Loc: Berkeley, California
I want to reiterate that while I have permission (from the author) to pass the pdf on as I please (and other website owners have received it as part of a Sunday advance-copy distribution), it is really easier on the eyes to read this online at New Yorker for as long as it is there (I think these usually last about 2 weeks or so?). You can print that version and it has no distracting cartoons or poetry.

It's also very beneficial to hear their featured 15-minute audio, a conversation with the author, introducing the piece.

My permalink to these, as mentioned before, is http://www.andrys.com/hatto.html#newyorker
_________________________
- Andrys, hobbyist, intermediate level
Hobbyist mp3 site

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#529801 - 09/12/07 05:26 PM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
Octavia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 283
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Andrys:
I want to reiterate that while I have permission (from the author) to pass the pdf on as I please (and other website owners have received it as part of a Sunday advance-copy distribution), it is really easier on the eyes to read this online at New Yorker for as long as it is there (I think these usually last about 2 weeks or so?). You can print that version and it has no distracting cartoons or poetry.

[/b]
Here's the link if you want to read it directly on the New Yorker site:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/09/17/070917fa_fact_singer?currentPage=all
_________________________
"These are the good old days" --Carly Simon

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#529802 - 09/12/07 06:12 PM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
sergeparis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 35
Loc: paris
Does any one know who is actually playing the Chopin Ballades on Hatto CD ?
_________________________
Serge

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#529803 - 09/12/07 07:25 PM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
Andrys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 41
Loc: Berkeley, California
Octavia,
I've written them that if people go only to the article page w/o knowing more, they won't see there is an important associated audio conversation file with the author.

Today it's at least showing in the left column under their general headings.

If they enter by the front door, then it's evident once they find the box for the entire feature.

Serge,
Here's a really wonderful page presented by Farhan Malik that's constantly updated for latest identifications.

http://farhanmalik.com/hatto/cdlist.html

Doing that leads you to the Chopin box and
http://farhanmalik.com/hatto/chopin4t.html

- Andrys
_________________________
- Andrys, hobbyist, intermediate level
Hobbyist mp3 site

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#529804 - 09/12/07 07:49 PM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
it's insane that they actually copied from so many different pianists, known or unknown. should Hatto's husband be charged with some sort crime for this, or just give him a break till he dies?

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#529805 - 09/12/07 10:31 PM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
Mary-Rose Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/16/06
Posts: 1428
Loc: Essex, England
I feel the husband got off too lightly. After all, he was stealing the life-work of others. If he is allowed to get off scot free, then others might do the same thing. Originally I assumed he was a pathetic old man trying to help his dying wife; we now know that he had a history of theft and deception, and that she was probably involved as well.

What puzzles me is that generally you can tell a pianist's playing from their own personal style, once you get to know them. Obviously Hatto must have appeared to possess a huge variety of styles. In retrospect it's difficult to imagine how they got away with it.
_________________________
Best wishes from MR
http://www.extraloudpurrs.blogspot.com

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#529806 - 09/13/07 12:12 AM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3456
Loc: US
maryrose,
I think Hatto had been out of the public eye and ear long enough that very few if any could have recognized her personal style of playing. In a way, she was the perfect blank slate onto which others' playing could be projected and no doubt it's part of the reason they did get away with it as long as they did.

did they ever figure out who performed the Mephisto Waltz recording?

Sophia

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#529807 - 09/13/07 01:30 AM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
Andrys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 41
Loc: Berkeley, California
 Quote:
Originally posted by sophial:
did they ever figure out who performed the Mephisto Waltz recording?

Sophia [/QB]
Not yet, despite all the interest in it, probably because so many have recorded it, it's a lot more work to try to get and hear everything.

- Andrys
_________________________
- Andrys, hobbyist, intermediate level
Hobbyist mp3 site

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#529808 - 09/13/07 01:48 AM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10354
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
I suspect Barrington-Coupe knows. Since he has confessed, someone should just ASK him.

Has Ivan Davis said anything publicly since the truth became known? He was one of Hatto's promoters, and his website used to extol her 'new' recordings. I would be curious to hear his take on how these diverse styles could impress him (and many others, to be fair) as the same person.
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#529809 - 09/13/07 04:21 AM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8841
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by maryrose:
I feel the husband got off too lightly. After all, he was stealing the life-work of others. If he is allowed to get off scot free, then others might do the same thing.
It's not quite that simple. There was an excellent letter to the editor in the June issue of Gramophone by Robert von Bahr, CEO of BIS Records. Amongst other things, he pointed out the utter folly of trying to litigate against Barrington-Coupe.
_________________________
Jason

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#529810 - 09/14/07 04:54 AM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
Aldous Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 65
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Has Ivan Davis said anything publicly since the truth became known? He was one of Hatto's promoters, and his website used to extol her 'new' recordings. I would be curious to hear his take on how these diverse styles could impress him (and many others, to be fair) as the same person. [/b]
Ivan Davis was one of the influential people in the music world who was methodically seduced and conned by Hatto and her husband. He was betrayed and it surely had to have been a painful experience for him. I doubt he wishes to discuss it on a public forum.

I, too, briefly, was in email contact with Barrington-Coupe, as, I'm sure, many people were. I had heard of the Hatto CDs from many prominent critics and pianists and was eager to hear them. I placed my order on the Concert Artists website and found myself in contact with him.

And the Concert Artists operation was designed to deceive.

Barrington-Coupe, personally, handled my CD orders and offered personal glimpses into his life with Joyce. I had admired the Liszt/Bach Organ Prelude in A minor on her sampler disc (and told him so in an email). He responded, expressed gratitude, and commented on how this piece was part of her funeral ceremony. He offered other moving details of her funeral and wrote: "Joyce would have been moved that her recording of the Liszt inspired you to learn and perform it." It was difficult not to be moved by this widower's grief. And, as with others, it gave emotional power to the hoax.

I write all of the above to try to explain how Barrington-Coupe and Joyce managed to defraud so many people. It was a very sophisticated "con," based on the exploitation of the best in human nature. That sounds malevolent, I know, but here's the key to it all: both Barrington-Coupe and his wife were delusional. They were ill. Not evil.

Ivan Davis was in email contact with Joyce and her husband months before her death. He, like most of us, had been dazzled by the CDs. (Did Joyce author her own emails to Ivan, or did her husband? In retrospect, the question arises, but, based on the New Zealand radio interviews with Hatto, Joyce's emails to Ivan seem to conform with her peculiar manner of expression.) But during this email exchange, it was impossible not be convinced of the sincere and earnest tone of Joyce and Barry. I've read them. They are skillful manipulations of the best in human emotions. They are the works of experts in the art of the "long con." They appeal to the deepest hopes in all of us: that there are extraodinary artists out there who have been shunned by critics, who are unknown, yet, who have perservered despite all odds. And, with Joyce, there was a tissue of past performance history that contained tantalizing hints that maybe, just maybe, a great artist was overlooked. That she was a woman, a cancer sufferer, an artist discriminated against by a critic for looking ill, only garnered more sympathy. But, then again, that "history" was fabricated by Barry. Ivan, and the rest of us, did not know this.

In retrospect, it is hard to believe how intelligent musicans could have been conned by this woman and her husband. Yes, how could any pianist have the supreme command of so many musical styles?

But that's the question all of you who personally never came under the spell of Barrington-Coupe and his wife bring up repeatedly. It's rather arrogant of you. Had you been in contact with them, as some people were, you would have been subjected to an entirely different experience. I think "The New Yorker" article details this powerful psychological component to the hoax. If you can't understand it, if you can't empathize with those victimized by it, then I feel rather sorry for you. This hoax, of course, is about faith and trust.

Those who trusted and were faithful were betrayed is the real story here.

To those who wish to see Barrington-Coupe punished: well, I'm not a lawyer and I know little of British law, but I vaguely recall that plagiarism there is only punishable if one can demonstrate that harm was inflicted. So far, it would appear that the pianists' performances who were pilfered have actually gained from the notoriety. God knows, their recording label publicists hardly had the effect that this scandal has. That's nice symmetry when you think about it -- victims who are automatically compensated.

And one final irony: in my effort to share this excellent New Yorker article with you, I found myself charged with "copyright infringement." I've proven that the charge is unwarranted, but I still wait for an apology. One I will never get, I'm sure. It seems like any connection with Joyce Hatto brings on unresolved controversy. Barrington-Coupe, who monitors websites, must be gratified by this.

Barry, if you're out there, listen to this: in your deluded effort to please your wife and salve your own ego, you've hurt more people than you can imagine. You owe all of us an apology.
_________________________
Ich grolle nicht.

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#529811 - 09/14/07 06:37 AM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8841
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Aldous:
So far, it would appear that the pianists' performances who were pilfered have actually gained from the notoriety.
Yes, that was covered nicely in Robert von Bahr's letter in Gramophone. I'm certain you read that.

But to throw out an accusation of arrogance? I have studiously read Gramophone since my mid teens, but when those Hatto reviews starting appearing again and again in the last several years, I smelled a rat. Plain and simple.

I kept wondering: how was it that a pianist I had never heard of (and physical disabilites aside) would play the most difficult repertoire as well or better than the pianists in my collection?

The music Hatto played -Liszt, Rachmaninov, Godowsky for example- was familiar to me, and I even have the scores to the Godowsky paraphrases which she supposedly so excelled at.

Even the album covers reproduced in the reviews looked suspicious, and then when one of my favourite and trusted Gramophone reviewers -Bryce Morrison- went hog-wild over Hatto, I was tempted to look into it.

But subconsciously it just didn't add up. It all made no sense to me, something[/b] looked wrong. So say what you will about me, yet when the news broke, I wasn't in the least bit surprised.

I'm grateful Mr. Barrington-Coupe never made any money off me.
_________________________
Jason

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#529812 - 09/15/07 10:26 AM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
Mary-Rose Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/16/06
Posts: 1428
Loc: Essex, England
Aldous - I do indeed have sympathy with those who, like yourself, were duped. This couple were such masters of the art of fraud that they convinced many intelligent and knowledgeable people by the cheap means of playing on their better nature, their human sympathies. That is why I feel disgusted - I don't think they should be excused on the grounds of "illness".

I'm not sure that what they did was plagiarism - it seems like theft to me.

sophial wrote: maryrose,
I think Hatto had been out of the public eye and ear long enough that very few if any could have recognized her personal style of playing.


I wasn't suggesting that anyone would know how she sounded, but that it might have been suspicious to hear one pianist with so many diverse styles.
_________________________
Best wishes from MR
http://www.extraloudpurrs.blogspot.com

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#529813 - 09/19/07 04:09 AM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
Andrys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 41
Loc: Berkeley, California
 Quote:
Originally posted by sophial:
maryrose,
did they ever figure out who performed the Mephisto Waltz recording?

Sophia [/b]
As of today (Feb. 18) the pianist has been identified, by Farhan Malik, as Janina Fialkowska, who has quite an incredible back-story of her own! and is concertizing today.

Details and various links are at my
http://www.andrys.com/hatto.html#news

- Andrys
_________________________
- Andrys, hobbyist, intermediate level
Hobbyist mp3 site

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#529814 - 09/19/07 04:28 AM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3456
Loc: US
Thanks, Andrys, for the update!

Sophia

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#529815 - 09/19/07 04:56 AM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17929
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by Andrys:

Sophia [/b]
As of today (Feb. 18) the pianist has been identified, by Farhan Malik, as Janina Fialkowska, who has quite an incredible back-story of her own! and is concertizing today.
- Andrys [/QB][/QUOTE]

I don't know Fialkowska, so I don't know her "back-story" (what's a "back-story", by the way?), but I will be hearing her perform the Chopin E minor concerto with the Victoria Symphony Orchestra next Monday.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#529816 - 09/19/07 07:20 AM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
Andrys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 41
Loc: Berkeley, California
Bruce, I link to that as well as other areas in connection with the Fialkowska-Hatto connection. Do read it before seeing her.
http://www.andrys.com/hatto.html#news

I look forward to hearing your report !

Sophia, you're very welcome. I've been waiting to hear too. And it didn't take Farhan long once he decided to focus on this after analyzing so many other recordings.

- Andrys
_________________________
- Andrys, hobbyist, intermediate level
Hobbyist mp3 site

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#529817 - 09/19/07 03:01 PM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17929
Loc: Victoria, BC
Andrys :

Thank you for the links to Fialkowska; apparently she was great news in Canada at a time when I was still living in the US. Still, it rather astounds me, even though I live on the western rim of civilization, that I do not remember having heard of her before.

I believe, also, that Ms. Fialkowska is scheduled to give a Master Class the day of one of her appearances here. I'll make a point of checking that out and I will attend if I can.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#529818 - 09/19/07 03:38 PM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3456
Loc: US
Hi Andrys,
Was the Mephisto recording altered from the original (i.e. speeded up or otherwise modified) do you know?
Thanks!

Sophia

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#529819 - 09/19/07 05:17 PM Re: Joyce Hatto Redux
AndrewG Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2506
Loc: Denver, Colorado
If my memory still serves I remember she took part in the Rubinstein Competition and got the attention of Artur Rubinstein himself. He helped her in various ways to get her career launched, succesfully in some fashion, I guess.

I heard her live once in Denver playing Tchaikovsky No.1. To me that particular performance was just 'another run', nothing special. Her Chopin Etudes CD is quite well-known though.

She used to belong to a group called something like "Canadian Six" that included 6 Canadian pianists. I remember Angela Cheng, Jon Kimura Parker and the great MAH are members of the Six. I forgot about the others. Just wonder if this group still exists...

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