Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner The two schools about Hannon

I am having my first "real" piano lesson in decades next Friday. I'm in my mid- 60's The teacher is young and once told me she was a child prodigy (oh boy!). Anyhow, when setting the appointment with her over the phone, she asked me what I was working on. After I replied, she asked if I was using Hannon. I answered No because I was of the school of thought that you can play real music for improving your technique. Not going to waste precious time pounding out page after page of non-music.

Naturally, I had Chopin's etudes in mind. They were composed for the purpose of improving technique, yes? I know she is going to give me a hard time about this. After all, she is the expert, and I am the student.

But I am going to stand firm on this (one of the advantages of older age is that you can pretty much do what you want and not be intiminated by anyone...especially someone a lot younger).

So what I am asking you (for I value your opinion) is which etude of Chopin's would you recommend as a starting point? One that would get me off to a good start. I play several of his preludes now and I never, never tire of them. Whereas if I had to play Hannon, I think I would go nuts in a very short time and quit taking lessons.

So, any suggestions? Thanks.

"They were composed for the purpose of improving technique, yes?"

But they are still to be played musically - you have to be careful to always play them for this purpose, and ignore any technical benefits.

The best ones for starting depend on the pianist, but overall 10/3, 10/5, 10/6, 10/9 and 10/12 are the more comfortable starters IMO. I would stick with opus 10 until you are more comfortable with them.

How about agreeing to do Hanon if she will allow you to do the Chopin etudes.

If it were me, I would keep an open mind about her ideas and suggestions, find out what the reasons she believes in doing Hanon and what benefits she think Hanon gives a person. Who knows, she may change your mind about Hanon . I would try to learn what she thinks is the value in doing certain things first and then you can always tell her if you disagree. As a teacher, if a person was absolutely against Hanon or something, I wouldn't "make" them do it, but find a suitable substitute the student could live with that accomplished the same thing. But that's just me.

I think, though, a student should be able to tell a teacher things they would like to do and what they want. What I would do is sometime at a lesson is just bring the Chopin etudes or other music you want to learn, say, "I've been working on these, could I play them for you and get your imput." I used to bring music to my teacher all the time and just say, "I would like to learn this."

One should be able to express your wishes and desires of what you would like to learn and have an explanation if the teacher feels it would be advisable to do differently. However, it is best to go with an open mind also of what you can learn from another.

All of the Chopin etudes are difficult, but
if you want to take a shot at them for
the challenge, and the prestige of playing
them, then you might want to take a look at
Op. 25 No. 9 (the "Butterfly Etude") and
the first of the Tois Nouvelles Etudes.
They're difficult, concert pianist-level
pieces, but they have the saving grace
of being only 2 pages long each.

You play both without looking at your hands.
The Butterfly develops brute strength in
the rt. hand, which you'll need for
advanced pieces with brutal r.h. passage work.
The key to playing this properly is to
play the first two notes in
each 4-16th note group in the r.h. in legato,
and the 3rd and 4th notes staccato, as notated.

The no. 1 of the T.N.E. gives practice in
polyrhythm work and develops pecision in
the lt. hand. You play this one with
rock-solid strict time in the l.h.: each
8-8th note figure in the l.h. in each measure
is played pefectly evenly throughout the
piece. The r.h. would initially be
played in strict time too, but eventually
you would graduate to playing the r.h.
in rubato in order to get the piece to
sound the best.

You don't need to do all of Hanon in order for it to benefit you - even just a couple exercises, if practiced well will indeed benefit you. One reason they are great is because they are so simple so you can remember them easily and watch what your fingers/hand/arm are doing and also you don't have to worry about not being able to play them (because they are easy), whereas other music may be much more difficult, and you would struggle just to get the notes, let alone get your fingers curved and lifted high, your hand and wrist shifting for each finger, your arm shifting for each finger, etc. Those motions are much easier to practice when the exercise is simpler, and if you can learn those motions, then you really don't need to do more than a few exercises of Hanon.

If your teacher really wants you to do them, I would do them. Unless she wants you to practice the entire book every day, but if she's anything like my teacher, it'll maybe just be a few to be practiced in a certain way.


In terms of Chopin, I started with 10/12, and it was really rough for me. You already play the first part of 10/3, right? Why not just continue with that?

Thank you all for your suggestions.

I have considered compromising with my teacher as was advised. I'll do a couple of pages of Hannon (Sam, I agree they are easy to memorize) if she'll let me play an "easy" etude. And, Sam, I play only the A part of 10/3 and it is a simplified, yet impressive arrangement. The B part scares me.

Gyro: I will have to print out your suggestions because I got lost somewhere while reading them. And I once tried the Butterfly (which is one of my favorites)...my left hand wasn't ready for all those broken chords.

Great. Now I have a list, at least, of etudes to look at and determine which look the "easiest" (ha). Thanks again.

Chopin once suggested to a student to play in a dark room. That would be the best way to determine whether you knew the piece. I'd probably fall off the bench, but it does sound like an interesting, albeit dangerous, challenge.

lctm :

I think it might be a little premature to start working on a Chopin Etude. I am not absolutely sure of your level, yet, but too many - if not all - of the Chopin Etudes have elements in them that require advanced technique. You might, for example, do the A section of the Op 10, No 3, but it would still only be the A section of the Etude. Or you might, for example, do the first page of the Op 10 No 5, or Op 10 No 12, or ...(etc), only to find that you haven't yet built the technique required to maintain the Etude through to the end. Some of them are real tests of stamina even after you get the initial technical problem mastered. So, like your teacher, I might be prepared, too, to give you a hard time about starting out with a Chopin Etude or two.

There are many works by other composers that would help you work up to the Etudes and which would provide you with two basics essentials : 1) the development of the skills to master a certain technical problem and 2) the satisfaction of working on something that you are able to complete; something that may be just a shade above your current level.

Indeed, if it MUST be Chopin, many of the Preludes present technical difficulties, and they could be used as technical problem-solvers without the formidable barriers that the Etudes (may) present.

If your teacher does want you to do Hanon (or Dohnanyi, or Schmidt or Czerny) remember that you won't be doing only that (those) composer(s); that will be just a small part of your expected daily routine.

Working on repertoire that you really want to work on when you're not quite prepared for it can turn out to be just as discouraging as working on repertoire that you don't really care for.

My next - and final, for this post - suggestion would be to go to your lessons with an absolutely open mind, and let your teacher call the shots for the first few lessons. Don't be too firm about asserting yourself. Give your teacher time to assess your abilities and to assess your needs. They may not all be readily apparent at the first lesson Then, after a few lessons, discuss with her how the two of you are going to agree on meeting those needs.

This can turn out to be a very exciting moment in your life. Make the most of it.

Regards,

it depends on your current level. if you have already played some advanced pieces, then etudes are only helpful for building even more advanced techniques.

btw, op.10.9 is not that hard, but you need to know how to play LH especially, using sort swing/rotating movement with wrist/hand. it's easily getting tired if your movement is not right. but i'm sure your teacher would help you with that.

How does your new teacher feel about Bach? Chopin taught himself a lot of his own technique from the WTC and it shows. One of the observed characterists of Chopin's own play was shifting fingers the a key to sustain a note. This is essential in a lot of fugues and something I've found myself doing nauturally in several places in the noctures (left hand particularly) even when not essential simply as a matter of smoothness. I realize what I'm doing and have one of those "Got ya" moments.

Usually for those who are tackling Chpoin, they've done their Hanon work at least six/seven years ago. I haven't heard of anyone who stuides Chopin's etudes and Hanon's excercises at the same time. These two works simply aren't at the same level.

IMO you could try Czerny instead. They are much more musical than Hanon, and more accessible than Chopin. Ask your teachers to play selections from Op.599, Op. 849, and Op.299 for you and see if you like them.

Interesting. Is there a source for this info? Switching finger for sustained notes doesn't count as a "technique" though, imo.

Actually, I say switching fingers does count as technique, as well as the incredible evenness of touch and independence of the fingers required to play the p+fs. In addition to the fugues, it takes really good fingers to play the c minor or G major preludes of book 1, for instance, really well.
Not to stray off the topic.
I do agree with Bruce, however. I think the Chopin etudes are tremendously helpful, but I think they help if you're already building on a good technique. I've improved a lot from working on a few, but I started my first after 9 years of playing.

Saying Chopin was into Bach is like saying Washington was at Valley Forge. It's pretty well known. His first (really only) "piano" teacher was a violinist named Zwyny who was a great admirer of Bach, who was out of style at the time, considered only quaint and old fashioned. Chopin once played 14 preludes and fugues from the WTC from memory for one of his students. This last is from the book Chopin, Pianist and Teacher by JJ Eigeldinger. As for the shifting finger remark, it may be from the same source. At any rate it was a observation by a contemporary admirer that he had seen "Chopin change fingers on a key as often as an organist." (Chopin was also an organist so this makes quite a bit of sense.) Technique? Perhaps I used the term an amateur, more or less self taught pianist might. To me a technique is a practice that facilitates the attainment of a result. In that sense, the finger shift certainly is a technique.

This is what I love about Chopin's Etudes (and his works in general) - once you understand how to play correctly, his writing is very pianistic and comfortable (well, with a few exceptions..). I think for this reason Chopin Etudes are valuable because you will be able to take what you learn in them and apply them to all instances of a similar technique. But at the same time, if you aren't ready or don't understand the techniques involved, then you could injure yourself. This is definitely something that your teacher could easily help you with.

Also another thing that my teacher told me - if you think Hanon isn't music, then why not try to make it music? You can play anything and make it sound musical and not just a technical exercise - a bit of imagination would go far. This is how I treat any sort of technical exercise, even Hanon/Czerny etc.

And finally, in response to thoughtful's post:

"Switching finger for sustained notes doesn't count as a "technique" though, imo"

You wouldn't believe how useful this technique/whatever you want to call it is - as well as Bach, I have come across it in Beethoven, and Rachmaninoff, and I'm certain that it can be/should be used in quite a lot of pieces - it's definitely something that is best learnt with the WTC (which is how I did, think it was the book 1 #13 fugue)

Wow!! It is going to take me a while to digest and give serious thought to all your suggestions. But I know there is some very valuable information/insight written here, and for that, I thank you.

That switching fingers thing. That little waltz in A minor by Chopin that Sam went wild about (me too) has several incidences of switching fingers. Also some of his preludes. I always thought it was useful because it allowed you to get ready for a big jump. Or am I thinking about it in a different context?

Having read every biography about Chopin that our library carries (the best: - Chopin in Paris by Tad Szulc...the worst: Frederick Chopin by Franz List [the author on this one is very suspect. Many think a Polish countess wrote it and gave her over-the-top views about Chopin to Liszt to copy as his own])...

Gosh, where was I? Oh! Chopin thought of Bach as a God; he also admired Mozart, but not nearly as much. I play Bach's Prelude #1 from WTC everyday, several times to build strength in my fingers and to improve my legato.

Of course I know Chopin has an affinity with Bach (and Mozart for that matter). But the implication of "Chopin taught himself a lot of his own technique from WTC" seems to be saying that the technique of his etudes are derived from Bach's Well-Tempered Claiver...is that what you are saying or am I reading into something that's not there? I am studying both works, and I can't find anything (technique-wise) in Chopin's etudes that resembles to Bach's P and Fs.

If you consider shifting fingers is technique, that's fine with me. I use it, too, more or less as circumstance demands, but since it's something you do with so many differnt composers, I don't see that as an example of Chopin's own technique (as manifested in his etudes) coming from Bach.

You're reading too much into it. All I was implying is that there are a lot of useful things to be learned by playing Bach that are also useful in playing Chopin (and just about everyone else!) I was referring to what little is known about Chopin's actual playing, not composing, technique. And I don't think it's that much of a strech to say he learned a lot of it from WTC. He's actually said to have slept with a copy of it under his pillow as a boy. Legend probably, but something started the rumor.

Lots of fascinating information here about Chopin! I noticed a book in Tower Records today called "Chopin's Funeral" and I was thinking of going back to buy it. Frycek or loveschopintoomuch, have either of you read that one? Thoughts on it?

Good.

Frycek - so you're saying "Chopin's Funeral" is a good book?