I know exactly what the middle pedal does on a grand piano, and have read maestros' thoughts on using this pedal ... but in fact I never do use it.

How much do you use this pedal?[/b] Gyorgy Sandor stated in his excellent book, "The middle pedal is very important. I use it almost as much as the right pedal."

True story: While piano-shopping a couple of years ago, I ran into a guy who had been a classical piano major for one year at an excellent music school. He transferred to a state university and completed his undergrad degree in music with a concentration in jazz piano. It turned out he knew absolutely nothing about the middle pedal or how it worked, and had *never* used it (!)

I use it more in 20th century stuff than in anything else. If composers want it, they will indicate it.

I also use it in chamber music, mostly because using too much right pedal thickens the texture and tends to drown out everyone else. Actually, I just go for little to no pedal in (non-French) chamber music/accompanying.

I can use it, but I've never played anything which needs it.

no, i never use it, nor know how it is used. i very rarely use the left pedal, and use the left pedal [susteno] the most. i'm guessing that it is used for the jazz piano, but i'm not sure.
but with the upright, it's used to muffle the sound, so it won't disturb anyone else's sleep, or if you want your playing to sound very warm and 'jazzy'.

I seldom use it. Only a few instances playing the modern stuff like Copland Variations. Hopefully I remembered it. I need to pull out the music and check to see...

This seems virtually impossible to me. I think he must have said that he uses the una corda pedal a lot, but it would still be a huge and unusual stretch to use the una corda as much as the right pedal.

The pedals should be explained early in lessons I think. Some students ask what they're for and then I take the time to explain the function of each one. Some pianos, uprights, spinets, etc. might only have two pedals, others three. Dealing with uprights/verticals, the right (damper/sustain) pedal lifts the dampers from the strings and allows them to vibrate freely. It functions the same on grand pianos as well.

The middle pedal (sostenuto) works one of two ways on verticals: 1) it lifts the bass section dampers to sustain tones in that area; 2) or it has a mechanism which puts some kind of damping material between the hammers and the strings to mute the sound to keep from disturbing others.

The left pedal (una corda, or in some instances due corda) on verticals puts the hammers about an inch or so closer to the strings so that the striking distance is shortened and thus the blow is not as powerful.

On grands, the right (damper/sustain) pedal raises the dampers from the strings and allows them to vibrate until released and then they fall back on the strings and damp (stop) the vibrations.

The middle pedal on grands might vary some as well. On cheaper models it acts like the verticals and raises the bass section dampers from the strings. On quality grands with full sostenuto mechanisms any damper--or combination--can be raised but the timing has to be very precise and will keep those dampers suspended while the other dampers react only to the right(damper) pedal. It's useful for long sustained tones which have changing harmonies above or around them. Pedal points/organ points can be sustained that way while the rest of the composition goes on.

The soft/una corda pedal on grands moves the whole action to the right so that the hammers strike only two strings instead of all three. Since it isn't used as often it strikes on the softer part of the hammer as well and thus the produced tone is more subdued. Useful for those who have trouble producing a pianissimo or for color effects that it might give to a particular passage.

Ulrich Schnabel has a book dealing with pedaling with hints on how to use it effectively. I just can't find my copy!!!!!!!! (

Thanks for all your comments.

Pianoloverus, Sandor's comment baffled and surprised me too ... so much so, that I checked my memory against the book *twice* -- that's what he wrote. [Could it possibly have been a typo or mistake that got into the manuscript??]

Varcon, I agree with all you wrote and actually knew that stuff from having read Joe Banowetz's {SP?} excellent, thick book on pedaling, most of which was over my head.

Brendan commented that If composers want it, they will indicate it.[/b] Does anyone know the notation for "apply the middle ped" and "release the middle ped" ? I don't recall even Banowetz mentioning such notation.

Usually it's marked "S.P." followed by a normal release sign (*).

That's one string, not two. Hence the name "Una corda".

Just to clarify for those who didn't know what the middle pedal does on grands, it keeps holds up the dampers on keys that are currently pressed after they are released. So if you have a pedal tone, you can strike the key followed by the damper and then release it. The note will continue to sound as you do what you need to do.

This effect can be used a lot to hold melodies, bass, any held note, in place of just using the damper pedal for the effect. Used along with the damper pedal, you have a lot more control over the release of tones. It's a technique that's very helpful once you've learned the timing of it. You'll have to replace it with the damper pedal on pianos with out it.

Sketchee, you should look inside the piano at the hammers when the 'una corda' pedal is depressed. You'll see it strikes two strings (except for the single and double string bass notes), not just one. In the early days of piano construction when only two strings were used for the upper areas, 'una corda' applied. With the addition of the third string it was no longer true but the appellation was still used. In some rare instances in music publications one might see a more 'modern' use of 'due corda' but, as I said--it's rare.

hey, im starting to discover the middle pedal, im using it a lot on BACH, great for certain fugues or pieces where you want absolut clean sound.

I don't play much Bach but this seems quite unusual to me unless your talking about Bach/Busoni works(I assume you're not). Which Bach pieces do you use the middle pedal on? Any other members use the middle pedal for Bach? As far as I know any pianos around in Bach,s time had no middle pedal, so that would be an additional possible reason to not use this pedal for Bach works.

It doesn't sound so crazy to use the middle pedal. If you have a held note, just hold it with the middle pedal instead of your hands. While Bach didn't have a middle pedal, he didn't actually play the piano either, the much of the mechanics of playing will be different. If it's an harpsichord/organ transcription, an arrangement from the cello suites or a reduction of an orchestral piece then that's something to consider. The mechanics of playing are different than each of those instruments, but one can use the various abilities of the piano to achieve the desired sound.

The piano was in its infancy during J. S. Bach's time and pedals were a later addition. If one is a 'purist' then no pedal in Bach would be correct. If the use of modern advances would improve/enhance the music, then think of what Bach himself might have done. Certain things were simply not available to him. Would he have utilized them if they had been? Probably and with zeal since he did with what was currently in use. The use of the sostenuto pedal for Bach is a novel idea in its way. Hm . . .hold a seance and ask him?

I don't think I've ever had to use the middle pedal out of the 10 years I've been playing the piano.

Is that bad? lol

-Paul

No--it isn't 'bad.' You just haven't had occasion to use it or the instructor failed to let you know that it is an option/need in some of your repertoire. Pedal/organ points in compositions need to be sustained so, in piano music, it could fulfill that requirement. Experiment with the pedal and discover at what point it will/won't catch the dampers and then find a piece that you can learn to use it on and you'll determine when to use it next.

Brendan -- thanks for the info about "S.P." notation.

Varcon posted:

The soft/una corda pedal on grands moves the whole action to the right so that the hammers strike only two strings instead of all three. Since it isn't used as often it strikes on the softer part of the hammer as well and thus the produced tone is more subdued. [/b]

I *do* use the left (una corda) pedal significantly often, for color effects and, of course, where the composer wrote "una corda," as Liszt does at the beginning of two sections in his "Benediction To God."

In an interview with a well-known Polish woman virtuoso [sorry, her name eludes me], who was a student of Artur Rubinstein, she mentions that Rubinstein told her something like, "See, you have to get the sound to the back row of the balcony as well as those people sitting close. So I keep my foot on the una corda pedal and play as loudly as I can!"

One authority pointed out that sometimes it is useful on grands to press the una corda only *part way* down ... that causes only a partial shift to the right, and the hammers press on less played portions of the felt. Anyone ever use this technique?[/b]

actually, Varcon, the left pedal is to make the hammers slide to the right so that all of the strings will strike one less string [therefore making the bass strings, which only have one string, have a softer sound], therefore making the sound softer. that's why they call it the 'soft' pedal. one of the only times this pedal is used is by professional and concert pianists.

On good grands the sostenuto pedal (middle pedal) holds the dampers off the notes just played and keeps them off these notes until it is released. It is useful in pieces where you might want to "suspend" tones while others are played, as in Debussy's first prelude from Book I, "...Danseuses de Delphes," which is full of high and low octaves alternating with triads marked staccato. If you really want to play the triads staccato but sustain the outer octaves, you need the sostenuto pedal.

The una corde pedal (soft pedal), as Varcon describes, shifts the action to the right so that the hammers hit two of three tri-strings. The result is not just a softer tone, but a different tonal character -- mostly because the unstruck string is still vibrating in sympathy with the struck strings. On a well regulated grand, the hammers should strike in the string grooves -- the hammers should move precisely one string to the right. By half-pedaling with the una corde you can get the hammers to strike outside the grooves where the hammer is less compacted, and partially striking the left-most string, which gives yet another tonal quality. I've done both depending on what quality I want. I've always been discouraged by all my teachers from using una corde just for producing pp or ppp. I've always been taught that it's use is primarily for a tonal effect, not for softness. I use it often when a composer asks for "sotto voce." I think that describes well what the una corde pedal produces.

I use the middle pedal a whole lot in Rachmaninoff, largely because of those deep, russian tones that are produced when you have low notes sounding throughout the piece. (Also, my hands are not as big as Rach's!)

As for the left pedal, I use it in nearly every piece I play, at least once. Some teachers claim it is a crutch, but those teachers are not out performing a lot. It is a marvelous invention, and one that should be taken full advantage of.

Actually, Pianafetish, the entire action slides--not just the hammers. Check it out. There are all sorts of opinions on quarter pedaling, half-pedaling, full-pedaling, etc. One needs to experiment with positions say for dampers. All the way up, part of the way up, barely off the strings. While I'm not familiar with the Banowetz book mentioned earlier, I have the Schnabel book with its suggestions for effective pedaling. It can get rather complicated, can't it? Anyway, Pianodevo and others must know a bit more about the pedal assembly now! Some informative posts have made that relatively clear. Thanks for the interchange.

Are you thinking of a particular place in a particular Bach work? If a note is held in Bach work I think it is meant to be held with the fingers. Even if you disagree with this, I'm not sure there are any places where using the middle pedal would be easier than holding the note with the fingers. Can you give some specific places in specific pieces you're thinking of?

-using middle pedal for Bach, or right pedal, it's just as "crazy" (¿?) as playing Bach on a conert grand.

-i like using this pedal. It already exist and can serve for lot of purposes, if you discover them and if you are interested on.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pianoloverus:
Are you thinking of a particular place in a particular Bach work? If a note is held in Bach work I think it is meant to be held with the fingers. Even if you disagree with this, I'm not sure there are any places where using the middle pedal would be easier than holding the note with the fingers. Can you give some specific places in specific pieces you're thinking of? [/b][/QUOTE

Again, Bach did not write piano works; the middle pedal on the piano is a technique that pianists use to achieve a desired effect. In a transcribed work originally for the organ, harpsichord with two manuals, orchestra, cello, with a note long held then it is perfectly acceptable to use the middle pedal.

The beginning of Toccata and Fugue where reaching the interval to hold the bottom note may difficult, why not hold it with the pedal. A not held with the fingers will sound no different than a note held with the middle pedal. Both simply hold the damper up in the same way.

In my personal taste, I also don't think it would hurt to use a little of the damper pedal for the piano transcription of Air on a G string or other orchestral transcriptions. This piece also has very long held notes that you could use the middle pedal for. To mimic the orchestra there are various techniques one can use. The limit on use of the pedals is an artificial one, especially the middle pedal which makes no difference in sound when used to hold a note.

I don't see why one would limit their piano technique for the sake of creating a limitation. Having as many skills as possible and using them when necessary will make playing and interpreting easier. Some techniques should be used carefully or sparingly in certain situations, but never say never

it's PIANAFETISH, Varcon.

My apologies! I now see that now. Interesting choice. Thanks for the correction and I do apologize.

The only piece I remember using the middle pedal on is the popular Rachmaninoff Prelude in C# minor. On my old upright, the middle pedal was a huge damper, in essence a practice mute so you wouldn't disturb the neighbors (the left pedal was still the normal una corda damper).

interesting thread. i do use the soft pedal a LOT. just depends on the contrast that i'm looking for. sometimes i use it to soften things up, sometimes i use it for the tonal quality or because i feel it can get a warmer or more mellow sound.
as for the middle pedal, i don't remember when i was first introduced to it but i first used it for debussy/dr gradus. pedals seem to give so many possibilities and my teacher did suggest that I use it for one spot in this piece. and i remember back then i thought there was a conflict because i wanted to use the soft pedal for that part. so he said, "why not just use them both?" I was such a noob(still am), I was like "oh, i didn't know that was possible." LOL
so i still play this piece just like that to this day i can't see a better way to do it.
I've never experimented with different levels of pedalling i'll have to check that out.

not enough! I have never seen it marked in a peice i played, but i have seen it marked in music before.