1 or 2 years ago I learned 3 or 4 of the Bach inventions. This summer I plan to learn the entire set.

3 questions...

1) Have any of you ever done this before (PianoJerome???) ?

2) What order should I tackle these in?

3) Would anyone else like to join me in my quest for the entire 15 two part inventions? If not...what are your goals for the summer?

The summer is a great time for some radical improvement. I'll have a much better practice time than I do during the school year. Thanks for all your help!

Matt

My teacher did that. He suggested that I do it a couple of years ago...I haven't yet.

If it was any other summer, I would probably join you, but I'm working on some serious competition repetoire this summer, which is going to take up my time.

Good luck with it!

Matt, that is a wonderful idea. I love those inventions and, so far have learned #l,#13,#14,#8. Would like to learn them all.

I have not taken them in any order. I Just read through them, found the ones I liked the most and started there. They are not easy, but once you get the fingering down, and stick to it, they get easier.

After that I would like to tackle the 3 part inventions. Gaby tu

For my freshman year for Piano Performance at Indiana University, one my tasks my teacher gave me was to learn all of these 2 part inventions in the first semester. I had already learned 3 or 4 of them before I started my year. I started at #4 and went in numerical order. I am now on the Sinfonias (3 part inventions) and on #4 of those. I am trying to finish these by end of the summer. I try to play the 2 part inventions through once in a while.

Matt ;

It's a great project, and I hope that you'll be able to carry through with it.

I've been thinking of doing the same thing at some point, so you may have spurred me on to joining you in this project. It would have to be after my summer school session which takes place the first three weeks of July, but I could certainly start on some of them now.

Thanks for the idea!

Regards,

it's going to be a tough project, i think. they're not easy to get under fingers and in memory, as i always find. i keep learning the few and keep forgetting them as well...

Well, last week I started to re-learn number 1. I have it memorized and up to preformance level. hmmm... mabey i'll also record the whole set. That would be cool!

Matt

For anyone doing these as a self-generated project, it is useful to consult the Alfred Edition of these works.

Of interest :

• 6 pages of detailed description of the execution of ornaments in Baroque keyboard works
• a brief discussion of Phrasing and Articulation, Dynamics, and Pedaling
• Tempos suggested in two editions, in two commentaires, and those actually used in the recordings of 9 different pianists.
• a writing out of all the ornaments above or below the staff when they occur in the score of each piece
• variants from different sources

This second to last item may be both useful and a hindrance. It's useful in that it doesn't require one to constantly refer back to the disucssion of the ornament, and, of course, the ornament's execution is shown in the context of the piece, for both timing and pitch clarifications.
It can be a hindrance, I suppose, in that it doesn't encourage one to learn/memorize the individual symbols for each ornament; everything is written out in full in the score.

Regards,

I'm slowly chipping away at these as well. numbers 1 and 8 are pretty reliable, I'm reworking fingering on 13. 14 sounds good to me but it's not memorized, and I'm reading through 2, 3, 4, and 9. I'm not sure if I've even read through the rest. A few of these are going to force me to spend some time on my left hand trills.

Marc

I will try to get involved in this project as much as I can.

One caveat about the Alfred Edition :

The score is heavily edited with phrase markings. One should be aware that these are just suggestions - often good - but are not necessarily the only way to phrase the passages so marked.

Regards,

Ahhh, I'd really love to go along with you on that one but it seems they are above my level right now. My summer project is K545 from Mozart, and some Clementi Sonatinas... I have looked into the C Major Invention and it looks like I can do it but I may not be able to do the whole set

Great project though, there's always something to learn from Bach... Good luck!

I just started to learn all of the inventions as well. I have completed 1 and am very close to fininshing putting HT on 4. Hopefully today. I have memorized the E minor, HS, and am about to start memorizing F major.

I havent really put a time limit on it. It is all that I am working on right now.

Mike

Summer rehab: Beethoven Op 57 and 101, Debussy Preludes, de Falla Three Pieces from 3-Cornered Hat, Granados Allegro de Concierto, Bach 3-part Inventions, Schumann Fantasie and g minor Sonata -- oh, the things we do for love...

I am not going to try to memorize the Bach inventions. I usually don't have a problem memorizing, but for some reason I find the Bach inventions harder to memorize than any thing else. I will concentrate on playing them as well as I can with the notes in front of me.

I envy those who can play them from memory.
Perhaps some day, I will be able to do so, but not right now. I have enough trouble learning them with the notes in front of me.

Auntie Lynn, you have a wonderful selection chosen for the summer. Do you memorize them?
Gaby Tu

I'm experiencing the exact same issue. I've had little difficulty memorizing other pieces but can't seem to handle even one of the inventions. I've been working my way through them numerically and by now have probably played #1 several hundred times but if you take the sheet music away, I'll crash within 15 bars.

My current theory is that I have trouble breaking these pieces down into discrete phrases or even sections. I'm hearing them as just two long strings of notes. I think this is partly due to the fact that these are the first pieces I started working on when I returned to the piano after nearly 20 years. I had to work very hard to be able to play them and had to concentrate too much on hitting the right notes at the right time rather than actually listening to the music.

i find Bach in general is harder to memorize (in long term). it's not to say that i cannot memorize any Bach piece, and i can. but it's just not sticking in my memory for long and quite easy to slip away... i don't know how many times i would get back to Bach and could only play part of the piece from memory. the good thing is that my sight reading has improved and i could just play it with music many times to get it back...

SEODave,

I think the linear nature of Bach's compositions definitely make them more difficult to memorize than say a Beethoven sonata where the harmonic structure and melodic phrasing are (generally) more clearly laid out.

At first glance it can be difficult to separate out Bach's phrases from the seemingly endless stream of notes. If, however, you look for repeating sequences the task becomes much simpler. Take for example the first and second bars of the right hand in Invention #1, or the first and second beats of bar three compared to the third and fourth beats.

Furthermore, it has been extremely helpful for me to identify the key changes and general harmony implied. Again in Invention #1 the first bar implies the Tonic in C major, the second bar the Dominant, and the third the Tonic again. In the fourth bar there is a modulation to the Dominant of G major and on the third beat of bar five The Tonic of G major appears. Since the music is so linear, describing the harmony is less important than knowing the key and consequently the scale that is being used at any one point. Thus looking at only the key changes Invention #1 can be broken down to:

Bars 1-3: C major
Bars 4-8: G major
Bars 9-10: C major
Bar 11: d minor
Bars 12-15: a minor
Bar 16: d minor
Bars 17-18: C major
Bar 19: F major
Bar 20: C major
Bar 21: F major, then C major
Bar 22: take a wild guess

This is pretty general. The key changes in reality often occur in the last beat or even two beats of the previous bar. Also, the d minor sections are too short to really be considered key changes but I include them because the d minor chord and d minor scales are clearly being outlined.

Actually one of these inventions would be a great candidate for a theory thread.

Marc

Markeyz. I break the inventions down into the chords as an aid in playing them, but, somehow, with the notes all strung out, I don't seem to be able to fasten them down in my memory.

The easiest one to memorize seems to be #14, but it is mostly muscle memory as I have played it so much. #1, which is much simpler, is harder for me to retain in my mind.

I am working on #13 now, and having real problems with measures 11,12,&13, even though my wonderful teacher got the fingering all laid out for me. I will just have to take one group of notes at a time and get it really fixed in my mind.

gabytu, I don't find chords to be as useful as scales in Bach for the simple reason that much of Bach's music is written more melodically than harmonically. Identifying chords in a Beethoven sonata or Chopin waltz is extremely helpful but in Bach, particularly the two part inventions, any identifiably chords are going to be fleeting and often ambiguous. Scales are more helpful because they allow you to think in melodic sequences i.e. up three steps, down a third, up a step, down a third for invention #1. This sequence occurs 18 times and its inversion occurs 19 times by my quick count. Combine this pattern with the correct scale and starting note (i.e. measure 1: C major, root; measure 2: C major, fifth) and you have a good chunk of the invention.

Thanks Markeyz, I will try your system. It certainly makes a lot of sense. Gaby Tu

It would seem to me somewhat counter-productive to look at pieces like Inventions, Sinfonias, and Fugues from a chordal point of view when they are linear in structure; chords really are not chords but just different voices converging at the same point in time.

Comparing the subject lines, their entry points relative to the previous one, their tonality (tonic, dominant, etc.) would seem to me a more logical and a more secure way of trying to memorize such works.

I've always marvelled at those who can memorize the more complex fugual works of Bach. That said, I've also seen/heard professional performers give recitals from memory, but use the score for Bach.

Regards,

WooHoo!


I've got the first invention memorized and up to speed. I'm beginning work on the sencond invention tommorow. It's a real beauty, any tips?

Matt

I don't seem to have trouble memorizing Bach, although I have only memorized three inventions, but I do seem to have a little trouble putting HT.

Any tips for putting hands together, other than practice?

Mike

Hi everyone! I'm new to the forum and am excited to join these discussions!

It's funny, I just started the Bach Two-Part Invention summer project two weeks ago and I'm glad to see some others are working on it as well! Right now I just finished up the second invention in C minor. I'm using the Alfred edition because I am currently not taking lessons over the summer (the Alfred editions really do help out when working without a teacher).

As far as putting hands together when playing Bach, it's very useful (for me) to practice hands separate at a slow tempo, making CAREFUL note of the fingering. If I mess up the fingering, I isolate that measure and work on it until it's right. Once you're comfortable with the fingering, hands separate and at a slow tempo, try putting them together at a slow tempo. For me, playing the inventions (or anything else for that matter) absolutely relies on solid fingering!

Anyway, glad to be part of the discussion and let's keep ourselves motivated with this project!

I play about half the inventions (at varying degrees of proficiency), and I'm planning on learning a few more, but I don't think I'd ever try and learn them all. I've played through all of them, and some just don't appeal to me musically. What's the point of playing music I don't care for? There are tens of thousands of other pieces waiting to be discovered. Just by Bach alone there are Sinfonias, the misnamed Little Preludes and Fugues (which for the most part, are neither so little nor so simple to play. This name was given by later editors. Bach just called them preludes and fugues), the Well Tempered Clavier I and II, etc. There's too much music to learn for me to waste my time learning pieces that don't interest me.

Boy do I ever agree with that one.

These other pieces are fantastic if you're technically ready to play them. From my personal experience, I tried jumping too far ahead of my skill level over the past few years. I finally got fed up with spending over a month and a half on a 3 part fugue in WTC book one. I enjoy playing something at my skill level and being able to finish and refine a piece, rather than struggle to just play the notes of the virtuoso repertoire. I have found that sort of enjoyment in playing these wonderfully crafted little two-part inventions and have already seen my technique in terms of finger independence improve! Not to mention, they don't take that much time to learn! Call me crazy, but I actually like them!

Matt, the second (c minor) Invention is indeed a real beauty - I have spent some weeks on it earlier this spring - I managed to play it nicely, but I did not memorize it (guess my brain is too old... )

I had some problems in the beginning with the trills - I tended to rush them and destroy the calmness and rhytm of the music.
I had to practice first without the trills and then add them (slowly and without too many repetitions, starting with the upper note on beat).

Wish you the best of luck with your project - as long as you are also playing Grieg !

Ragnhild

If more young/intermediate pianists had this attitude towards repertoire they

1) would undoubtedly make more musical and technical progress and

2) would agonize less about "how to master" the Rach 3 or the Chopin Etudes before they are ready to even attempt such works.

That's such a refreshing change of pace.

Thank you!

Regards,