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#536606 - 12/07/07 10:20 PM Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
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Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
Starting at measure 22 (in Alfred Masterworks edition) I'm having a few problems. This is the "Tempo I" section where there is a ff marking at the passage with all the chords starts. In the first measure there is a B natural octave in the left hand with an F-sharp octave in the right. Trouble is, the left-hand octave is placed a millimeter before the right hand's. However, when I count the beats it looks like it should line up perfectly. Anyone know how that particular part should be played? Left hand octave first and then immediately right hand or both together?

Also, in the 3rd measure (and a few subsequent measures) there is a D and E mixed in with the chords for melody, but they also come in a fraction before the chords in the same hand. Is this just for clarity or do they really need to be played an instant before the chords? Any help with this would be appreciated, as I can't really learn the piece until I resolve this issue. ;\)

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#536607 - 12/07/07 10:42 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Clarity. Follow the notated rhythm.
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#536608 - 12/08/07 12:20 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
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Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
So I'm making it more complicated than it is, right? Those left-hand and right-hand octaves are supposed to line up, and those melody notes go WITH the chord?

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#536609 - 12/08/07 12:54 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
BruceD Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17672
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by Deus ex Pianoforte:
So I'm making it more complicated than it is, right? Those left-hand and right-hand octaves are supposed to line up, and those melody notes go WITH the chord? [/b]
Yes.

Regards,
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- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
Writing from Paris until 15 May, 2014

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#536610 - 12/08/07 12:55 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
dannylux Offline
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Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 1815
Loc: Connecticut
Yes.


Mel
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#536611 - 12/08/07 11:31 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
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Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
Great. Thanks for the replies. NOW I can start this beautiful piece...

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#536612 - 12/08/07 06:56 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
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Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
...after I get one other thing straight. :p

So I can see how the melody notes are part of the chords, but these octaves are still baffling me. See the thing is, that there is an eight note rest in the left hand directly below a right hand octave. (This is the first measure of the Tempo I section, by the way.) Anyway, there is a left hand octave before this rest, and if you were to draw a line upwards with a ruler, this octave would come right between the two chords in the right hand.

Does that make any sense at all? I wish I could post a screenshot of this measure but I don't have a scanner and can't find a free pdf of the piece online. The thing is that this left-hand octave that lands in between the right-hand chords appears in several measures, but it has different fingering each time. Sometimes the fingering would pretty much be impossible if I tried to play the right-hand and left-hand exactly simultaneously.

Rhythmically I suppose it would make sense to play them together, but this rest that is aligned with the right hand and the fingering really makes me wonder.

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#536613 - 12/09/07 01:02 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
wr Offline
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Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7432
The confusion is about the notation of the triplets against non-triplets. In that measure, the B natural octave in the left hand is not part of the triplet figures, but is a regular eighth-note, following the preceding dotted quarter in the melodic line. However, the F sharp octave in the right hand is part of the triplet accompaniment, and so falls after the left hand's octave. And no, they are not played together, in my opinion.

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#536614 - 12/09/07 04:30 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
timbo77 Offline
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Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 268
Loc: Singapore
My edition (Boosey & Hawkes) lines up the octaves at the end of bar 22 (and other similar ones). The editorial notes to this edition do not comment on a synopation in rhythm in the autograph here as suggested by wr. I think that the Alfred Masterworks edition intends to nudge the notes to one side for clarity only and not to indicate rhythmic difference. It sounds like slightly sloppy editing because the end result gives rise to your question and also to wr's perfectly legitimate interpretation of a rhythmic difference between the triplets and the octave melody.

However, I do not think Rachmaninoff intended there to be a rhythmic difference here. This section, entirely based on these pesante triplets does not seem to make much sense with a subtle rhythmic kick in the octave melody. Rather, rhythmic unity drives forward this section.

I feel more confident in this analysis also because in all 14 recordings I have of the piece, the octaves are played in time with the triplet chords.

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#536615 - 12/09/07 09:25 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
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Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
wr:
The confusion is about the notation of the triplets against non-triplets. In that measure, the B natural octave in the left hand is not part of the triplet figures, but is a regular eighth-note, following the preceding dotted quarter in the melodic line. However, the F sharp octave in the right hand is part of the triplet accompaniment, and so falls after the left hand's octave. And no, they are not played together, in my opinion.

Hmm. In edition I have (Schirmer) this passage is notated as entirely triplet-based, both the melody and accompaniment, so there is no ambiguity or confusion. Where the melody notes coincide with the chords, they are notated with 'sticks down' at certain points and thus perhaps give the visual impression of falling slightly before; this is merely a notation convention to make for ease of reading. There are quite a few sections in Rachmaninoff's Preludes where triplet and duplet rhythms occur simultaneously[1] and should indeed be made clear, but this isn't one of them. And as timbo77 notes, various recordings would seem to confirm this too.

-Michael B.
[1] Opp 23/2 and 32/1 are the ones that first come to mind.
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#536616 - 12/09/07 10:14 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17672
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by Deus ex Pianoforte:
...after I get one other thing straight. :p

So I can see how the melody notes are part of the chords, but these octaves are still baffling me. See the thing is, that there is an eight note rest in the left hand directly below a right hand octave. (This is the first measure of the Tempo I section, by the way.) Anyway, there is a left hand octave before this rest, and if you were to draw a line upwards with a ruler, this octave would come right between the two chords in the right hand.

[/b]
I also have the Schirmer edition of these Preludes, and the melody octaves are not always in the left hand, in spite of the register in which they are played. Starting at the Tempo I, measure 22 :

First chord (RH) C# F# B C#
second chord (beat three, LH) C# octave
third chord (last triplet of beat 4, LH C# octave)

Measure 23:
first chord (beat 1, RH) C# F# B C#
second chord (beat 4, LH C# octave

Measure 24:
first chord (beat 1, RH) C# F# B C#
second chord (last triplet of beat 2, LH) B octave
third chord (beat 3, LH) C# octave,

etc., etc.,

Timing is never determined by how notes in one stave may - or may not - line up with the notes or rests in another stave. Timing, as you should know, is always determined by counting note - and rest - values in the time signature of the piece.

I still don't see the problem that you are encountering, however. All the rests in this measure and in the following indicate that the accompanying triplet chord figures do not sound on the beat where there is a rest; To me, if looks very straightforward: four beats to a measure, all in triplets (making a total of twelve triplets per measure) with the triplet being silent when the melody octave is played, either by the right hand or left hand.

Nowhere in my score do I see a "left hand octave before a rest" I see a LH (sometimes RH) octave under and above a rest, simply indicating that the triplets going on over and above the melody are not sounded on those beats so that the hand involved can play the octave melody.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
Writing from Paris until 15 May, 2014

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#536617 - 12/09/07 05:16 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7432
Okay, now that I've looked at it again in the cold light of day rather than late evening, I think that melody octave should most likely be played in sync with the triplets, in spite of the dotted quarter preceding it in the melody line. It does seem to me that playing it as a regular eighth would possibly help separate the melody from the accompaniment at that spot.

Does anyone have easy access to the critical edition of the preludes that came out last year? That might shed some light on the ambiguous notation.

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#536618 - 12/09/07 05:47 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
wr:
...in spite of the dotted quarter preceding it in the melody line.[/b]

You are indeed correct that dotted quarter is a tad misleading; it should of course be a quarter note tied to another quarter followed by an eighth (with a triplet bracket over this and the preceding quarter note), but this would be a bit of a mess to read given the triplet accompaniment activity going on at this point.

Does anyone have easy access to the critical edition of the preludes that came out last year? That might shed some light on the ambiguous notation.[/b]

Is the edition you refer to the one published by Boosey & Hawkes[1]?

Hmm... could be time to write a quick note to Santa \:\)


-Michael B.
[1] Rachmaninoff Preludes (Authentic Series)
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#536619 - 12/09/07 07:36 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7432
The critical edition I mean is the one published by Russian Music Publishing, and distributed by Bärenreiter-Verlag. They are expensive hardbacks, with extensive notes and lots reproductions of manuscript pages. I've not actually seen these for sale to individuals anywhere - some libraries have them, but they often are not in circulation and aren't supposed to be allowed out of the library. I lucked out with the Etudes-Tableaux because people at the library weren't paying attention when I made the interlibrary loan request for it, and I got to take the volume home, which is where I discovered I wasn't supposed to have it. Fortunately for them, I'm not the type that marks up library books, or spills drinks on them, or worse, steals them.

http://tinyurl.com/24dhre

Boosey is publishing paperback urtext performing versions of some of the volumes, but the preludes aren't out yet (I'm assuming they are on the list of things that will come out in this form eventually). The Etudes-Tableaux are.

http://tinyurl.com/2cf3hs

I did a comparison of the Etudes-Tableaux critical edition to the Dover and Universal editions I have, and found the Universal to be reliable, but the Dover had quite a few discrepancies.

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#536620 - 12/09/07 08:17 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7432
Oops! I meant to say that the International edition was the reliable one, not Universal. Sorry.

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#536621 - 12/09/07 11:55 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
Ok, so I just checked my Schirmer edition and they have this LH octave lined up perfectly with the RH octave.

In the Alfred Masterworks edition, in measure 22 and similar measures the LH octave is slightly to the left of the last eighth rest in the LH and the RH octave. Now I would normally attribute this to a confusing editing job, but they assign a different fingering in these similarly printed measures.

For example in the first measure it directs the pianist to play a RH F# octave and play the top note of the LH B natural octave with 4 and the bottom note with 1. It's almost impossible to play an F# octave with your right and and simultaneously play a B natural with your fourth finger. In measure 23 there is also a RH F# octave and LH B natural octave, but this time it directs the pianist to play the notes with the 2nd finger, which is obviously much more practical.

So I'd be completely willing to play these octaves simultaneously, if it weren't for this impossible fingering. That's why confusion still lingers.

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#536622 - 12/11/07 01:13 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
This fingering issue make sense to anybody?

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#536623 - 12/11/07 04:54 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
wr:
I've not actually seen these for sale to individuals anywhere - some libraries have them, but they often are not in circulation and aren't supposed to be allowed out of the library.

It looks like the Critical Edition of the 24 Preludes is available to anyone willing to part with a rather hefty €195 according to www.baerenreiter.com , whereas the only other Rachmaninoff volume displayed on their website is indeed the Etudes-Tableaux at a wallet-busting €238. The B&H version of the same edition is about a tenth of the price... so well worth the wait for their cheapskate Preludes as well \:\)

Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#536624 - 12/19/07 01:29 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude 32-10 in B Minor question...
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
Forget it guys, I've mastered it.

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