Just to be clear, the thumb is tucked under the palm when playing the piano, when the other fingers are playing, and while, obviously, the thumb isn't playing.

Sounds strange, probably to most, but it really helps with developing good technique.

Would you possibly be open to posting a recording of either your Chopin or the Rachmaninoff? I'd be extremely interested in hearing you play. I think there must be a communication problem here where you are calling the thumb under technique something different than we are, because the ballade simply can't be played without thumb crossing.

BTW, regardless of what Charles Rosen might say, he crosses his thumb constantly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5vJeaEIN5c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-DT8lHx_vA

Hi again,

Sorry for this late reply..I was on a plane for most of the day, I am checking out Indiana University Campus this weekend!

But to answer some questions.

SottoVoce, I have never heard of the term "thumb-over" used before, but I am a little embarrassed (since I caused such confusion, I really did mean to!)to say that sounds exactly like what I am doing. When I play scalar passages I am slightly shifting my arm over and never tucking my thumb under my hand. This is to say that I never tuck my thumb under there are certain places where you must absolutely have your thumb under, but about 99.999 % never tuck my thumb under for scales. I was watching my hands in the mirror late last night while practicing and even while playing the fantasie impromptu I always tend to shift my arms slightly. A clue[/b] to why I was told to do this might be because I have pretty short or "stubby" thumbs. So that be why my teacher recommended this technique? So sorry about the confusion.

Also, I did not know if there are other fingerings out there. I was just asking. Someone I met at a master class said they were using virtuosic fingering for their scales but they might have just been trying to show off? I talked to my teacher earlier today at my lesson before leaving and he says he has never heard of any either, and that if I want to learn the scales and arpeggios I should just used the standards fingers like you've all said.(but continuing to do the thumb-over stuff) Now I am wondering what that person I met at a master class was talking about?!

I really cannot answer that question for you pianobuff...my teachers only ever assigned music and barely any exercises. I've never met anybody else that hasn't done Hanon etc. playing at my level...it's a little disconcerting.

Well not really...just really the standards...Bach prelude and Fugue, Full Classical Sonata, a technical romantic work, a 20th century piece, and an etude. I prepared 3 preludes just in case some of the schools don't think one is enough to fulfill the requirement for a 20th century piece. One of the preludes is only 2 pages in length, so just trying to play it safe.

And computerpro3...I don't have any video recordings of myself playing, just audio so I don't think that will tell you much...but I really think what I am doing is this "thumb-over" technique, I would have called it something myself, but my teacher doesn't have a name for it, he just tells me "shift your arm!". And I agree Charles Rosen is certainly tucking his thumb alot after saying he doesn't really.

Oh, and thanks sottovoce for mentioning the thumb over technique! I thought I was beginning to look a little crazy on this forum D:

I would be love to hear your audio recording if you feel comfortable posting it.

The well-known teacher and pianist Gyorgy Sandor was very much against tucking the thumb under and advocated something like you are doing. You can read all about it in his book "On Piano Playing: Motion, Sound, and Expression", which Schirmer publishes at an extortion-level price, but many libraries have it.

I don't know what "virtuosic fingerings" would be, but as an example of an alternate fingering, Prokofiev practiced scales using 12345 and 54321 for all. And he was a remarkable pianist.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how a pianist, classical or jazz could ever get to a virtuoso level without being a "monster" at playing all 12 major, minor scales and arpeggios, in all positions and keys. The scales should also be played in thirds, tenths, sixths and contrary motion.

Scales are the building blocks to melody, harmony, improvisation, counterpoint and every other element in music.

There should be no aversion to studying them correctly with proper fingering and to actually develop a passion to work on them till we "retire."

I used to hate practicing scales when I was in school and dreaded having to play them every week for my private lessons. But then, later on, I found them as a challenge and saw how much I became a better, more in control player working on them consistently with and without metronome.

katt

Scales to musicians are like Plies to the ballet dancer, imo.

It is the foundation.