There seems to be in much of Chopins music a melancholic strain and a sense of impending doom and sadness.[ the polish word for this is zal]

I think in particular of Nocturne in C sharp min [post] used to such brilliant efect in the opening scenes of "the Pianist".

The monochromatic images of the doomed pre-war city of Warsaw accompanying the tune are just breathtaking

I suppose this "zal" is due to the personal circumstances of his own poor health and fragility.

Perhaps why his appeal is so great is that the music brings us close to the cusp of lifes end.

There's a morbidity to the chromaticism that is always striking with his music.

Even if zal is uniquely Polish, it's not unique to Chopin.

I find the entire range of human emotion communicated by his music. If there is melancholy, there is also vigor, vitality, exuberance and joy in equal measure. All these qualities—expressed with grace, beauty and refinement—co-exist in all his music, even (or especially!) that which was composed nearest the end of his life.

Chopin was certainly as at ease in major key signatures as minor ones; he wrote more pieces in A-flat major than any other key by a considerable margin.

I think it's his exquisite harmonies, above all, that give his music that certain je ne sais quoi; one of the essentials of his harmonic language is the diminished seventh chord, which could easily be felt to have a morbid sound.

Steven

Whats intriguing is that this 'morbidity" sounds so beautiful.

Is the lesson here from Chopin that death itself is beautiful.

I think of his March Funebre and the lyrical central section [not heard often enough unfortunately]. These passages to me have always represented resignation to the intense grief of bereavement.

I often wondered what the last compositions he wrote were.

My own experiences of death have taught me that humans usually look their best just before they pass on.

Often too great artists produce their best work shortly before death ie Mozarts Requiem.

I certainly agree that one can find melancholy in Chopin's music, as you can in almost all of the composers of his era. Melancholy was an element of the Romantic view of the world, in art, in literature as well as in music.

While certain music does evoke thoughts and images of approaching death - often because their titles say so - I don't agree that a given piece of music necessarily evokes the same reaction in all individuals. Your citing of the C-sharp minor posthumous Nocturne is a case in point. While the director of "The Pianist" obviously felt a connection - and you have, perhaps, been influenced by the movie - I have never considered this Nocturne a "death" piece, but rather one that expresses, calm, peace and beauty.

Regards,

But always lurking in those pieces that express calm, peace and beauty are those particularly creepy chromatic passages that Chopin seemed to revel in. Which makes them stand out even more.

Chopin once had an hallucination of a beloved friend, a boyhood friend who'd died of consumption, literally in Chopin's arms, standing at the foot of his bed, his face a skull and his mouth pouring blood. How's that for love, sorrow and horror all mixed?

I just finished reading the book on which the movie was based. The choice of this Nocturne was based on the fact that it really was the last piece performed on the radio by the Polish pianist of the title before he started hiding from the Nazis.

Although I didn't like the movie that much, the book makes the incidents in the movie look like a walk in the park (because it includes many things not in the movie).

You do make a good point that anyone who has seen the movie will probably be influenced by the movie in their thoughts about this piece.

I agree with BruceD. Chopin's illness probably contributed to the mood of his music but he also lived at the peak of "romantism", where people expressed 'malaise' or melancholy for no clear reason, often referred to as "mal du siecle". People (artists) celebrated the "taste of tears", expressed keen interest in hallucinations and the macabre, the redemptive or self-revealing nature of pain and suffering.. It was "in" to be pale, "tuberculous" (with the subsequent 'positive" impact on one's complexion.. think Violetta in La Traviata) and Emma Bovary (great movie by the way if you have not seen it, with my favorite actress Isabelle Huppert, who also starred in The Piano Teacher).. Oooh but I do digress..

Chopin's musical moods are all over the map despite chronic illness, so any correlation between his health and his music seems fanciful to me.

Was he any less ill when he composed cheerful, happy, jovial, ebullient music than when he wrote music that could be considered morose or morbid? I think it's easier to find an exalted celebration of life in his compositions than anything resembling a foreshadowing of death.

Steven

I usually associate "death music" with Scriabin.

I'd think Chopin's most explicit "death music" must be the Second Sonata, third movt. in particular.

I read that Julius Zarebski dragged himself out of his death-bed in order to give a rendition of the sonata's Funeral March. What a dramatic way to go!

How would you know about that, unless you were dead already? In fact, all the Chopinesque sadness and morbidity surrounding death is about the reactions by the living to the death of others, and has nothing at all to do with knowing anything about what it is like for the person who actually dies. So no, that's not the appeal of Chopin.

Perhaps the most relevant Chopin death music was that which was performed at his funeral service at the Madeleine in Paris in November 1849. The orchestra played his Funeral March from the Op.35 Sonata, and Op.28 Preludes No.4 in E and No.6 in Bmin were played on the Great Organ.

WR.
If im dead why are you talking to me?

I do not claim to know what its like to die that would be silly.

I merely contend that within Choppies music lieth a deep sad strain of morbidity in general and believe the reason for this is Chopins
immanent sense of his own demise exacerbated by his chronic ill health.

You only have to look at Chopins photo, [he looks about 90 in it]
he died at 39, to understand that this was never a physically well person.

Its not unreasonable to posit a view concerning someone with a lifetime chronic illness and to say that such a person probably is more aware of the nearness of death than someone in peak physical condition.

If you dont understand this then theres not much more I can do for you

Chopin would have been equally aware of the "nearness of death" when he managed to write all that merry, gay, cheerful, joyous, jolly music as well.

An "imminent sense of his own demise" didn't deter him from writing plenty of music that could be said to exalt heroically the beauty of life.

FWIW, I don't agree with your assessment of Chopin's photo at all. "Looks about 90"? C'mon ... that's silly!

Steven

Dramatic indeed!

Hmmm? Maybe that's why I like him.
I'm not a morbid person but I have always been drawn to that type of music-like Heavy Metal. And I always wondered what is it about Chopin that I like so much. You just answered that for me-Thanks

:rolleyes:

Words fail me.

Steven

Heaven help us, the goths have invaded!

Mmmmmm, heaven ... a place of death where dead people go after they die.

Steven

Well, where some of them go after death. :p

We see dead people!

Any port in a storm—a sad, dark, gloomy, morbidly beautiful storm!

Steven

Saul: Which is better: death or life?

Lazarus: I was a little surprised. There wasn't that much difference.

Janus K what sort of view holds there is no diference tween life & death? There is a huge difference.

When youre dead you will become a disembodied soul,.Quite a difference to an embodied soul I should say.

Not just Chopin but many great art works concentrate on death.

This is as it should be.

Intimations of immortality are what elevate mankind to the position of global dominance.

The backward cultures lack this insight.

You didn't get the reference, Mocheol.

A pity.

Your reference is so obscure I doubt its worth bothering about

Go forth into the wide world and learn.

I might get back to you once you've done so, but certainly not before.

But it may be that the task of learning is too much for you. Ah well -- your loss, not anyone else's.

Global dominence over whom?

Please list the "backward cultures" which have no intimations of immortality.

If you imagine that Chopin concentrates on death, that's a product of your imagination.

It's obvious that people can hear what they want to and turn a deaf ear to what they don't—and a blind eye to what they apparently don't want to read.

Steven