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#541532 - 03/28/08 12:33 PM New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
80k Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 126
Loc: Portland, OR
It looks like ABRSM has released a new complete Urtext set of Beethoven's piano sonatas, this time edited by Barry Cooper.

I found an NY Times article available here .

Here is the link from the ABRSM website .

With the addition of 3 early sonatas that Beethoven wrote, it looks like a pretty important release.

I'm curious if anyone has seen this, and whether they would recommend the set? I was looking into replacing my worn-out Schnabel set with a Henle set, but this new ABRSM set looks interesting as well. I'm also curious if anyone who owns ABRSM large volumes can tell me if the binding holds up well, and whether they lay flat.

Thank you very much!

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#541533 - 03/28/08 01:02 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
Kevin109 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/11/07
Posts: 10
Loc: London
It does indeed seem a very important publication, especially with the copious notes and CD.

I guess after the Schnabel edition, either Henle or ABRSM will be very Urtext (though of course the Schnabel is important for the light it sheds on the thought processes of a great Beethoven interpreter.)

But I'm a bit disconcerted by this "35 Sonatas" stuff. I can see his arguments, but I think I'm getting a bit long in the tooth to cope with the number of Beethoven sonatas being changed!

I saw the new edition in a music shop the other week. It looks quite manageably and well presented. I resisted the temptation to try out opening the volumes out flat though, as I suspect I might then be deemed to have just bought them!
_________________________
Kevin

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#541534 - 03/28/08 01:17 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
I just ordered it a few days ago but haven't received it. My sense is that each edition has benefits.

Henle is Urtext and that's great - but in learning pieces, it's helpful to have some "suggestions" on fingering, pedalling and such - and that's where some of the editions are great. I actually like Casella (Ricordi) a great deal for fingering - BUT it does not use the most current scholarship - and there are some "wrong" notes and practices. Schnabel is great for looking over his shoulder and getting the ideas of one of the greats - but once again - it's helpful not to confuse his great ideas with HIS ideas.

I'm looking forward to Cooper - but I wouldn't want to rely on just an Urtext edition.

Henle, Casella and a few others also offer sonatas individually which is nice.

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#541535 - 03/28/08 02:19 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
80k Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 126
Loc: Portland, OR
kluurs,
I agree that I prefer to have an edition with some suggestions. It's nice to have my old Schnabel to refer to, but I have realized that it is no longer in any condition to take around with me. I'm thinking of getting a nice urtext set and now debating between Henle and ABRSM.

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#541536 - 03/28/08 03:15 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
DameMyra Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1948
Loc: South Jersey
I have the ABRSM Tovey and boy it doesn't like to lay flat at all.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher
MTNA/NJMTA/SJMTA

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#541537 - 03/28/08 03:37 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17952
Loc: Victoria, BC
I don't know of any edition that can "lay" anything or lay in any manner. My ABRSM (Bach: WTC; Beethoven: Sonatas, Volume III; Mozart: Sonatas, Volume II), all lie flat quite nicely.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#541538 - 03/28/08 03:50 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
Gabe Racz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 119
Loc: Denver, Colorado, USA
This is great, the Henle edition is, what, 50 years old? Tovey and Schenker are even older. There has been some significant scholarship on the Beethoven Sonatas since then!
_________________________
Schimmel 190E EP 103330

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#541539 - 03/28/08 04:25 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
arp Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 64
Loc: Solihull, England
 Quote:
Originally posted by 80k:
It looks like ABRSM has released a new complete Urtext set of Beethoven's piano sonatas, this time edited by Barry Cooper.

I found an NY Times article available here .

Here is the link from the ABRSM website .

With the addition of 3 early sonatas that Beethoven wrote, it looks like a pretty important release.

I'm curious if anyone has seen this, and whether they would recommend the set? I was looking into replacing my worn-out Schnabel set with a Henle set, but this new ABRSM set looks interesting as well. I'm also curious if anyone who owns ABRSM large volumes can tell me if the binding holds up well, and whether they lay flat.

Thank you very much! [/b]
I think this edition was more successful than ABRSM thought it would be because they sold out quite quickly and it has only just come back into stock. I did have a set on back order from Amazon but I needed some other books for my Renaissance course so I had to cancel. Maybe next month's budget might cover them!

If the books are soft back like the Chopin series that ABRSM do, then they won't lie flat. My copy of the Mazurkas is a right pain to play from.

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#541540 - 03/28/08 04:31 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
80k Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 126
Loc: Portland, OR
 Quote:
Originally posted by arp:
I think this edition was more successful than ABRSM thought it would be because they sold out quite quickly and it has only just come back into stock. I did have a set on back order from Amazon but I needed some other books for my Renaissance course so I had to cancel. Maybe next month's budget might cover them!

If the books are soft back like the Chopin series that ABRSM do, then they won't lie flat. My copy of the Mazurkas is a right pain to play from.
Yea, it appears they are only selling a softback version.

The Tovey edition actually has a clothback version (as do the Mozart and Schubert's volumes). I would imagine the Cooper will eventually have a clothbound version available.

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#541541 - 03/28/08 05:56 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
stevedavis1776 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 66
 Quote:
Originally posted by BruceD:
I don't know of any edition that can "lay" anything or lay in any manner. My ABRSM (Bach: WTC; Beethoven: Sonatas, Volume III; Mozart: Sonatas, Volume II), all lie flat quite nicely.

Regards, [/b]
Bruce, you've got it backwards. Inanimate objects lay, only animate things are able to lie. Sorry. It's the English teacher coming out!

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#541542 - 03/28/08 08:16 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17952
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by stevedavis1776:
 Quote:
Originally posted by BruceD:
I don't know of any edition that can "lay" anything or lay in any manner. My ABRSM (Bach: WTC; Beethoven: Sonatas, Volume III; Mozart: Sonatas, Volume II), all lie flat quite nicely.

Regards, [/b]
Bruce, you've got it backwards. Inanimate objects lay, only animate things are able to lie. Sorry. It's the English teacher coming out! [/b]
I don't know where you learned English, but I was never taught that these two verbs were distinguished by their subjects being animate or inanimate objects.
I was taught - and subsequently taught my students - that :

to lay is a transitive verb, requiring a direct object (noun or pronoun) :
- to place (an object) in a horizontal position or position of rest
- to put or place (something) in a particular position
I will lay the book on the table.
The hen is laying an egg.
If you lay the baby down gently, she will go to sleep.
Lay your head on my shoulder!
Lay it over there.

to lie is an intransitive verb taking no object
- to be in a horizontal or recumbent position
- (of objects) to rest in a horizontal or flat position.

The book lies (not lays) flat - or doesn't lie flat if it's a Dover edition! - on the table.
The dog will lie (not lay) in front of the fire.
I am tired, I am going to lie down - (not lay down!)

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#541543 - 03/28/08 08:42 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
DameMyra Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1948
Loc: South Jersey
Stating simply that I should have used "lie" instead of "lay" would have sufficed. I am hoping your response was meant to be both humorous and instructive and not demeaning and pedantic.

Regards,

Sharon
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher
MTNA/NJMTA/SJMTA

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#541544 - 03/28/08 09:44 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17952
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by DameMyra:
Stating simply that I should have used "lie" instead of "lay" would have sufficed. I am hoping your response was meant to be both humorous and instructive and not demeaning and pedantic.

Regards,

Sharon [/b]
Some teachers can't prevent themselves - try as they might - from sounding pedantic. There was, however, no intent to demean.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#541545 - 03/28/08 09:59 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5921
Loc: Down Under
Dame Myra, I took the intention to be instructive and a touch humorous, and certainly not demeaning. Perhaps a tad pedantic, but that's Bruce and I for one rather enjoy it \:\) . In this case I'm certainly of his opinion on the lay=transitive, lie=intransitive. I just wonder if this could be one of those US English vs English English (& Canadian & Australian) things. Curious - I've never heard of the animate/inanimate thing before either, only the transitive/intransitive.

Anyway, as far as ABRSM editions go, my Tovey-edited WTC lies perfectly flat, and is easy on the eyes, as is my ABRSM Clementi sonatinas volume. I'd be interested to see this new edition, because my Schnabel is also falling apart, and I'm not sure I can afford the Henle \:\(
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#541546 - 03/29/08 12:05 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
wendyf Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 14
Loc: New Zealand
Are the margins wide enough to allow the books to have spiral binding?

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#541547 - 03/29/08 12:31 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
DameMyra Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1948
Loc: South Jersey
My Beethoven is so ill behaved and the margins are not that wide so notes keep hiding in the creases. Both my teacher and I have folded back sections and for some reason it just won't "lie" flat. It would probably be easier to just memorize the darn sonata I'm studying but for some reason the next to last page continues to elude me. (Op. 78, that second movement is really a bugger to memorize. It has those three little alternating hands connecting passages that keep changing and expanding and the last one follows some strange internal logic that is completely lost on me.)My Schnabel is also falling apart. Now I do have the Henle also but I hate marking it up, so my Tovey is my working copy.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher
MTNA/NJMTA/SJMTA

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#541548 - 03/29/08 02:57 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
Ferdinand Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 938
Loc: California
Originally posted by BruceD
 Quote:
to lay is a transitive verb, requiring a direct object (noun or pronoun) :
- to place (an object) in a horizontal position or position of rest
- to put or place (something) in a particular position
I will lay the book on the table.
The hen is laying an egg.
If you lay the baby down gently, she will go to sleep.
Lay your head on my shoulder!
Lay it over there.
If I may expand your exposition with a few more examples:

Lay can also be used reflexively, as in
Now I lay me down to sleep

Lay is also the past tense of lie (intransitive)
Yesterday I lay down but couldn't sleep

Past tense of lay is laid (transitive)
I laid my burdens down and slept

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#541549 - 03/29/08 04:48 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
 Quote:
Originally posted by BruceD:
 Quote:
Originally posted by DameMyra:
Stating simply that I should have used "lie" instead of "lay" would have sufficed. I am hoping your response was meant to be both humorous and instructive and not demeaning and pedantic.

Regards,

Sharon [/b]
Some teachers can't prevent themselves - try as they might - from sounding pedantic. There was, however, no intent to demean.

Regards, [/b]
Yes, Bruce can really lay it on and I'm not lying!

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#541550 - 03/29/08 07:25 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
JBiegel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 850
I was looking for an autograph or facsimile of the 'Pathetique', and Professor Cooper contacted me and said there are no such manuscripts available. I plan to purchase these editions, as well as the ones by Stewart Gordon, which readers should equally explore.
_________________________
www.jeffreybiegel.com

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#541551 - 03/29/08 08:40 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
dannylux Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 1818
Loc: Connecticut
Does anyone know if the pages of the new Cooper Edition are sewn in, or are they glued?

At $88.00 for the set, I would think they would be sewn.


Mel
_________________________
My Recordings

"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. What you will receive in return varies. But it really has no connection with what you give. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn

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#541552 - 03/29/08 11:10 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
Mattardo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 1306
I started on the Schirmer years ago (Bulow and Lebert) and moved to the Henle edition. The Henle lays flat at all times whether it's on a grand or an upright. It may be older, but there's only so many revisions and scholarly "discoveries" until you're playing a piece that no longer is Beethoven. Somehow, I think Beethoven would have laughed at some of the small details that scholars harp on. While they may be important for interpretation, Beethoven would probably have said "enough! just play it!"

I prefer the Master's prose to an editor's prose, unless - like you say - I need an occasional view apart from my own.

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#541553 - 04/08/08 09:53 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
Took a while to get here - but they finally came today. I quickly looked at three of the sonatas I've recently been working on. It's a very fine edition and from my limited exposure to them, I'd take them over the Henle - more helpful information - excellent binding - though not sewn. The print is exceptionally clear - the best of any edition i have - and I have six others...

A lot of thought went into this edition - even the page turns seem to be in better places than I've seen in many other editions.

Since I'm a psycho I'm reporting before I've spent hours with the books - but I have to say my initial impression is this is a superb edition.

I'm going to spend some more time with it over the coming days - will let you know if there's anything else to say.

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#541554 - 04/08/08 10:57 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
stevedavis1776 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 66
I ordered it a little over a week ago. Of course, it's Oxford, so they don't exactly bother to reply after the initial purchase order e-mail. It would be nice to know if it was coming, but that would of course require them to do something convenient for customers. Sigh....

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#541555 - 04/08/08 11:09 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ferdinand:
Originally posted by BruceD
 Quote:
to lay is a transitive verb, requiring a direct object (noun or pronoun) :
- to place (an object) in a horizontal position or position of rest
- to put or place (something) in a particular position
I will lay the book on the table.
The hen is laying an egg.
If you lay the baby down gently, she will go to sleep.
Lay your head on my shoulder!
Lay it over there.
If I may expand your exposition with a few more examples:

Lay can also be used reflexively, as in
Now I lay me down to sleep
[/b]
Good point, though it's still a transitive verb requiring a direct object, as Bruce pointed out, even though that direct object is oneself.

What am I laying down to sleep? Me. I am laying *me* down to sleep. Though shouldn't it read, "I lay *myself* down to sleep," since, you're right, it is reflexive?
_________________________
Sam

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#541556 - 04/09/08 09:04 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
stevedavis1776 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 66
Bruce , you still have it backwards. Yes, the book is an object. The book assuredly does not place itself on the piano rack to lie open. It is laid open by an animate critter (a person). Sorry, the whole thing about transitive/intransitive is just something that grammarians made up last century to hopelessly confuse a mostly simple point. Same thing with who and whom. There's a simple way to remember which one to use, and then there's a way that people who teach English but don't actually speak or write it use. Believe me: the simple way is the way you want to go!!

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#541557 - 04/09/08 09:27 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1397
Loc: Dallas, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by stevedavis1776:
Bruce , you still have it backwards. Yes, the book is an object. The book assuredly does not place itself on the piano rack to lie open. It is laid open by an animate critter (a person). Sorry, the whole thing about transitive/intransitive is just something that grammarians made up last century to hopelessly confuse a mostly simple point. Same thing with who and whom. There's a simple way to remember which one to use, and then there's a way that people who teach English but don't actually speak or write it use. Believe me: the simple way is the way you want to go!! [/b]
Here's part of a usage note (under the verb "lay") from the Merriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary:
 Quote:
LAY has been used intransitively in the sense of "lie" since the 14th century. The practice was unremarked until around 1770; attempts to correct it have been a fixture of schoolbooks ever since... Much of the problem lies in the confusing similarity of the principal parts of the two words. Another influence may be a folk belief that LIE is for people and LAY is for things...
Bruce has this one right, but he is swimming against the tide of popular usage.
_________________________
Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718

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#541558 - 04/09/08 10:02 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
stevedavis1776 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 66
Never mind. I finally broke out the English manual. I thank God that I don't find myself teaching "lie" and "lay" very often. Bruce is write. In present tense, a book "lies" on the music rack. Don't ask me how I got part of that rule twisted about a bit! Well, good, I learned something new, for when that situation crops up in a paper somewhere!

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#541559 - 04/09/08 10:13 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
stevedavis1776 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 66
er...Bruce is "right," not "write." Well done!

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#541560 - 04/09/08 11:20 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
wdot Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 727
Loc: South Carolina, USA
Bruce is correct, as always. This is one of my many word usage pet peeves. My wife (the Phi Beta Kappa) will tell one of the girls to "lay" in bed. My routine response is "Lay what? An egg?"

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#541561 - 04/09/08 07:13 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
ctnski Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 272
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBiegel:
I was looking for an autograph or facsimile of the 'Pathetique', and Professor Cooper contacted me and said there are no such manuscripts available. I plan to purchase these editions, as well as the ones by Stewart Gordon, which readers should equally explore. [/b]
I have the first two volumes edited by Stewart Gordon (Alfred), which I strongly recommend. He refers constantly to all previous editions, eleven total. To my knowledge, this is unique among Beethoven editions. This is especially helpful for working out ornaments. Gordon will typically say something like, "These six editors suggest playing it like this, while these other five suggest this, which this editor prefers." I had both volumes spiral-bound at Kinko's. I also have Tovey's, which I enjoy for his erudite commentary, and Schenker's, whose fingerings are always creative and worth studying. The latter is also the best buy, two volumes by Dover.

Cheers,

Craig
_________________________
NY Steinway A 2005; Roland FP-7F/ FP-4

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