How am I supposed to pedal pieces from the classical period?
Is it similar to the Baroque period where you can't pedal anything? Or can I use pedal as necessary?
Of course not over pedaling, I'd only use it when I feel it's necessary to play in a smooth fashion.
I'm learning Mozart's K283 in G 1st movement, so if any of you have played it if you want to give specific examples of where pedal would be acceptable in the piece that'd be awesome.

Take a look at this book , which was recommended in another thread. I have not read it in detail yet, but it seems to be a very useful guide.

I object to the statement that you cannot use the pedal in Baroque
music.

Take, for example, the intro to the Sinfonia in Bach's 2nd Partita.
It would be pretty silly not to use the pedal quite heavily there.

As for the Classical period, Beethoven, for instance, often wrote
pedal markings.

The tone on Beethoven's pianos dissipated quickly and was thin compared to today's grand pianos. He could use the pedal very liberally and it produced an appropriate sound for the instruments of the time. Such use of the pedal today would often generate an overwhelming amount of sound that would distort the music.

The situation is even more pronounced in the Baroque period, where for composers like Bach the harpsichord was the instrument used.

Therefore you have to use proper judgment when applying pedal to such music. This leads many performers to adding only light amounts of pedal to Baroque and Classical period music.

So your first statement of not ever using the pedal is incorrect. mkorman points out there are cases where a steady pedal works fine.

I'd be a little bit cautious about your third statement as well. The pedal is necessary to smooth things out, as you say, but it is better if you can to generate a smooth line through finger legato, rather than through pedal. This becomes essential in Bach's music, where the polyphony can be washed away if you rely on too much pedal.

I guess the thing to do is listen carefully to the music you are producing. Does it provide all the details that are required? Does the pedal blur anything that should be more clear? This is your best guide to using the pedal.

I also want to point out that the pedal needs to be used with
discretion all the time. No matter what period of music you're
playing from. It's never OK just to hold your foot down, unless that's
specifically the effect you're after.

But, I never really understood the philosophy that we must "cripple"
the piano because the music was written for the harpsichord. If you
want a harpsichord, play a harpsichord. Otherwise, play the music as
best as a piano can play it.

But he didn't.

How do we know that he did or didn't, other than his markings in scores? Did Beethoven ever write anything about his pedaling? Are there contemporaneous descriptions of Beethoven's playing that would tell us?

Tomasino

According to the Hummelites Beethoven over pedaled. It p*ssed them off.

I would suggest that this is a purpose for which you should not use the damper pedal in Classical period music. It's not a substitute for legato playing.

Steven

From everything I've read the pedal was used by Beethoven more sparingly than it has generally been used when playing his works from around 1900 onward. But I believe he used it far more than other composers before him.

I think generally Beethoven marked pedal indications only when he thought it would not be obvious to the performer or when he wanted some special effect. I heard a master class once that was part of the Mannes Beethoven Sonata summer festival. The student played some Beethoven Sonata with almost no pedal and the instructor asked why. The student said he only played what Beethoven marked in the urtext score. The instructor gave a little smile and explained more or less what I said above.

Thanks for the info.
I of course wasn't meaning use pedal to in order to not play legato...especially with mozart, unless marked stacatto, legato is a must. And I know you can use the pedal in some baroque music, but in general you don't, yes?

And what I as meaning by necessary for playing smooth was like in one beethoven sonata I was playing around with [I don't remember which one....I think maybe opus 49/2]
there was one spot with no clear pedal markings, but it had a quarter not with the must hold for the whole beat line under it [cannot for the life of me remember what that's called dangit] and then the next not was a tenth below it and I couldn't reach it and have the smooth sound without popping the pedal down for a second then letting it go when I reached the next note.

Of course the pedal needs to be used with discretion all the time. It can ruin otherwise brilliant pieces of music....and I definitely have tendencies to over pedal. I'm getting better though!

Quoting Keyboardklutz

Curious as to what a "Hummelite" was, and thinking it was perhaps some long forgotten old Bolshevik, I googled it up, and found something quite fascinating. A veritable book on line called "Success in Music and how it is Won" by someone with the improbable name of Henry Theophilus Finck, with a chapter on rubato by Ignace Jan Paderewski. It touches on the subject of this thread. Here are a few quotes from the book.

There were cliques and partisans in those days as there are in ours. Among the rivals of Beethoven as pianist were Woelffi, Cramer, and Hummel. Concerning Woelffl and Beethoven, a critic wrote in 1799: “Opinions differ as to their relativesuperiority, but the majority incline toward Woelffl. . . . Beethoven’s playing is more brilliant but less delicate, and fails sometimes in clearness. . . “

…The same authority (Czerny) assures us that Beethoven’s general attitude in playing “masterly in its tranquillity and refinement, without the slightest gesticulation )except bending over as his deafness increased),” and we have also an interesting description by J. Russel (an Englishman who published his “Travels in Germany in 1820-22) of Beethoven when improvising. He “soon forgot his surroundings and for about half an hour lost himself in an improvisation the style of which was exceedingly varied and especially distinguished by sudden transitions. … He revelled rather in bold, stormy moods than in soft and gentle ones. The muscles of his face swelled, his veins were distended, his eyes rolled wildly, his mouth trembled convulsively, and he had the appearance of an enchanter….

…The supporters of Hummel accused him of “misusing the piano, of failing utterly in purity and clearness, and by this use of the pedal producing only a confused noise.” …Czerny, who knew what he was talking about…tells us that Beethoven used the pedal a great deal, far more than is indicated in his works…

…Of even greater importance…is his attitude toward those frequent modifications of tempo which are of the essence of modern music. Was he rigid or elastic, metronomic or poetic? Schindler, his pupil, companion, and biographer, answers this question for us reliably…He “was always, with few exceptions, free of all restrain in tempo; a tempo rubato in the most exact meaning of the term.”…Schindler also calls attention to the fact that sometimes the great master “delayed very long” over a single chord. He makes it clear that Beethoven treated a piece of music as an orator treats a speech—respecting the words and the punctuation marks, but reading in a good deal between the lines.

The book can be found here:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=h...num=1&ct=result

Tomasino

In Baroque music pedalling is fine butyou definitely shouldn't pedal a Bach Partita like you would a Chopin Ballade.

In Classical music you must use the pedal tastefully. It is very hard to explain what I mean by this but you must not use it to make up for uneveness in your playing but to add color and shade to your phrases as well as a connecting tool. Try to practice as much as you can without pedal so you don't use it as a crutch. I always feel that the una corda pedal is ok in most classical music (again...not a crutch).

But that doesn't mean Beethoven used more pedal than what other pianists in the 20th century used when playing his works.

I forgot to ask my teacher last night...we ran out of time. Currently I'm pedaling almost not at all, letting legato to the work. I pedal in one spot where I feel it would be impossible to play smoothly without the pedal. This part is there there's a third in the left hand on G and B and then you hit an octave G on the next beat. My hands aren't able to stretch that comfortably, so I play the notes, depress the pedal, and play the G while releasing the pedal.

Great advice! I just got it the other day, and have already gleaned much useful information from it.

Clearly, mileage varies on this, and I don't see any reason to get dogmatic about it. To my ear, Baroque music does sound best on piano when played without pedal, and that's the way I like to play it myself. That doesn't mean I think anyone else has to play it that way, and it doesn't mean I can't enjoy the playing of those who do use pedal in Baroque music.

Thanks tomasino, great find.

use pedal if you still can maintain the clarity of the sound; otherwise, use no pedal. my teacher always hates to hear me over use pedal when playing Beethoven, and asks me not to use pedal at all sometimes.