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#543757 - 01/02/02 10:37 PM Beethoven 81a "Les Adieux" questions...
Aura Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/01
Posts: 92
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Dear people,

I'm revisiting the Sonata Op. 81a by Beethoven - and have actually realised that when I learnt it before, I overlooked quite a number of important details. I understand the whole work much better now, can play the second movt with much more intensity than before and the third movt seems more energetic than the first time as well.

I was wondering about a couple of things though... perhaps you can help me:

3rd movt - last two bars of "introduction" bars 9 & 10. SHould I be clearly articulating the slurs over the groups of two semiquavers? I have been playing these without phrasing, but was wondering if I should actually be following these instructions more carefully. I find it much more difficult to phrase them of course, at the tempo. Suggestions?

If anyone can be bothered, could you tell me what fingering you used in the LH running passages at bars 158-160?? If you can't that's OK, but no fingering seems to be efficient so far.

A tricky one... how does one play the theme softly but with joy, vitality and energy? in a soft dynamic, what is it that makes that difference between energy and just playing a lovely melody?

As with the Chopin post, any comments on this work in general would be appreciated. if you've played the piece, I'd love to hear from you.
_________________________
cheers

Aura

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#543758 - 01/03/02 12:57 AM Re: Beethoven 81a "Les Adieux" questions...
Rodion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Salt Lake City
in bars 9 and 10 you should most definitely play to bring out the slurs. i don't think in any music where slurs are written out like this would they not need to be emphasized. for each two note group, it's as if the first note has an accent, and the second note is staccato...but maybe you already know about slurs like this.

the fingering in the henle edition goes like this, starting with the first note in measure 158: 3-1-4-3-2-1-2 (or 3 on the e flat)-1-2-3-4-5 measure 159: 4-2-1-3-2-1-2 (or 3 on the a flat)-1-2-3-1-2 measure 160: 1-5-3-2-1-3-1-4-1-2-3-5....

i hope that helps \:\)

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: Rodion ]
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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. - Hector Berlioz

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#543759 - 01/03/02 01:03 AM Re: Beethoven 81a "Les Adieux" questions...
Rodion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Salt Lake City
...of course i just used staccato as a description for these fast slurs. they need to be played at their full value still, but in something fast they will sound staccato anyway because you need to lift off of them so fast. in two note slurs the second will sound quieter than the first. the same works for groups of notes that are slurred - the last note needs to end quieter than the rest. this of course is a general rule, but if the composer wants it another way then it will be noted by extra dynamics.
_________________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. - Hector Berlioz

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#543760 - 01/03/02 11:00 AM Re: Beethoven 81a "Les Adieux" questions...
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Rodion:
...of course i just used staccato as a description for these fast slurs. they need to be played at their full value still, but in something fast they will sound staccato anyway because you need to lift off of them so fast. in two note slurs the second will sound quieter than the first. the same works for groups of notes that are slurred - the last note needs to end quieter than the rest. this of course is a general rule, but if the composer wants it another way then it will be noted by extra dynamics.[/b]


I recall having my teacher refer to this technique as "portato". Does that ring a bell for anyone?
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Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#543761 - 01/04/02 03:24 AM Re: Beethoven 81a "Les Adieux" questions...
Aura Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/01
Posts: 92
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Dear Rodion,

Thank you very much!

Would you be able to tell me what fingering you used for bars 9-10 in the third movt??? Sorry to bother you, but my edition doesn't have any fingerings at all, and I've been having trouble with that bit! I know about slurs like that, but have trouble articulating them at the fast tempo. I was thinking perhaps I hage a fingering problem.

Would be much appreciated.
_________________________
cheers

Aura

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#543762 - 01/04/02 08:28 AM Re: Beethoven 81a "Les Adieux" questions...
Anonymous
Unregistered


Matt G.,

it does ring a bell for me \:\)

My teacher refers to the technique as "portato" as well and it was explained to me as being neither legato nor staccato but something in between.

Nici

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#543763 - 01/04/02 11:09 AM Re: Beethoven 81a "Les Adieux" questions...
Rodion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Salt Lake City
okay here goes for measure 9, starting on the slurs: 2-1 2-1 3-2 4-1 3-2 measure 10: 4-1 3-2 4-1 3-2 4-1 3-2....and the repeated b flat in the next measure starts with 5.

glad to be of help \:\)
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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. - Hector Berlioz

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#543764 - 01/04/02 11:14 AM Re: Beethoven 81a "Les Adieux" questions...
Rodion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Salt Lake City
Matt G,

i wasn't describing portato, i was describing playing these fast two note slurs. you should always lift off at the end of a slurred group and i mentioned in these fast groups the lift off will be fast, making the second note essenitally staccato.

what you're talking about is when you actually have a staccato dot and a slur (or legato line) written out at the same time over notes.
_________________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. - Hector Berlioz

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#543765 - 01/04/02 11:55 AM Re: Beethoven 81a "Les Adieux" questions...
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Oh, I know what portato notation and touch are, so I guess I didn't express myself properly! I'll try again, then.

I was instructed to deal with two-note slurs as if one were to play the second note of the slur group with a portato, not staccato, touch. The glide-off of portato, as opposed to the lift-off of staccato, has always helped me in situations like this. Using a portato touch you get the required detachment between slur groups without putting undue accent on the second note. I also think it is much less stressful than staccato at a fast tempo, probably because it requires less motion.
_________________________
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#543766 - 01/04/02 06:11 PM Re: Beethoven 81a "Les Adieux" questions...
Rodion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Salt Lake City
i see what you mean....

well once again, i'm trying to describe more of how it will sound to the ear, not the actual technique of how the keys are pressed...that just depends on what you're playing more than anything.

it's all good though \:\)
_________________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. - Hector Berlioz

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#543767 - 01/06/02 07:41 AM Re: Beethoven 81a "Les Adieux" questions...
Aura Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/01
Posts: 92
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Thank you very much Rodion, and to the others for their comments.

Have you all learnt this piece? it's a fabulous sonata... perhaps you can suggest a recording for me to listen to? I already have Arrau and three inferior pianists... forgetten their names, which is a blessing. Interested to hear your suggestions. Wilhelm Kemff? What do you think?

thank again \:\)
_________________________
cheers

Aura

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#543768 - 01/06/02 01:08 PM Re: Beethoven 81a "Les Adieux" questions...
Rodion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Salt Lake City
we have an old tape of van cliburn playing it, so you might still be able to find it somewhere, but most likely on cd. and schnabel is famous for his beethoven sonata's, and richard goode is known for the same.
_________________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. - Hector Berlioz

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#543769 - 01/06/02 01:15 PM Re: Beethoven 81a "Les Adieux" questions...
Rodion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Salt Lake City
oh yes,

You're Welcome \:\)
_________________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. - Hector Berlioz

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#543770 - 01/06/02 02:27 PM Re: Beethoven 81a "Les Adieux" questions...
Brendan Offline



Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5319
Loc: McAllen, TX
Aura,

I played this sonata for some recitals last year. The bad part was that it was only in my fingers 8 times out of 10 (lust like any mid-late Beethoven Sonata for just about everyone).

In the running passages in the third movement, try to get as many fingers in a row as possible. Cross-unders will tend to slow you down. Here's the fingering that I used for bards 158-60:

158
3-1-4-3-2-1-2-1-2-3-4-5-

159
4-2-1-3-2-1-2-1-2-3-4-5-

160
1-5-3-2-1-3-1-3-1-2-3-5-
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http://www.BrendanKinsella.com

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#543771 - 01/07/02 10:56 PM Re: Beethoven 81a "Les Adieux" questions...
Aura Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/01
Posts: 92
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Thanks brendan and rodion.

I'm practising this sonata today. I have until Friday morning to get it, and the 2nd ballade of Chopin, the Mozart 457 another piece perfect! \:\(
_________________________
cheers

Aura

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#543772 - 01/09/02 12:03 AM Re: Beethoven 81a "Les Adieux" questions...
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3915
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
As you are looking for a recommendation for a recording, I suggest the Solomon performance. I believe this has been reissued both on EMI and on Testament labels. There is also a recording by Leopold Godowsky, but I can't remember what that sounded like.
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