Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Is college really going to prepare me?

I don't have first-hand experience in
this area, but I would think that for
a piano performance professor position
the most important thing would be a
doctoral degree: D.M.A., PhD., DEduc.,
D.Mus. D.F.A., etc. (I'm not sure what the
differences are between them and how
they would be regarded by different
institutions.) You would not be
able to teach at most institutions without
some kind of doctorate (a bachelor's and
master's degree from Julliard won't get
you any kind of permanent teaching job
at any college anywhere). As for where
you got your bachelor's degree, I don't
think that really matters all that much.

As for your concerns about the faculty at
Alabama, ask yourself these questions:
would any faculty member at Julliard be
that much better a piano player than any faculty
member at UA?; do you play better than
any faculty member at UA?

Thank you all for the wonderful advice.

In more thought yesterday, I decided that at least one year at UA (without marching band) will be a great experience and an excellent transition from my somewhat slacking piano routine in highschool. College is, as a lot of you said, what you make of it, and I'll have to stop relying so much on external motivation and discover my own drive. I've started to do a little of that, but I'm way behind where I should be. Given the environment of a practice room, the time blocked out to practice, and the chance to play a very wide variety of music, I think the college atmosphere at UA will provide me with the spark I'm needing to discover my potential.

It was also great hearing from people who were in the same situation as me and are now doing just fine. I know I can make it, but it's going to take a lot of work next year, and I posted this to make sure that I'm doing the right thing. As long as I work hard enough and discover my motivation, I can rest assured that I'm making the right decision.

I know for grad school I'll have to attend a "quasi-prestigious" system of study, be that whatever it is. So, whether I transfer to that location after four years or one year, I'll have the degree necessary for my resume.

And I don't feel too worried about the "in-state" feel. I've lived in three other states, stayed with relatives in many other states and overseas, and I've played piano in Texas, Florida, and Indiana before. I love going to masterclasses and attending recitals, and I'll take the advice to travel a lot during the summer.

Once again, thank you all. The support really makes this transitory time of my life feel a little more secure.

I think you're misinformed. To teach piano
performance at the college level the one
thing that you're going to need above all
else is a doctoral degree. Where you
got that doctorate from (or even
what field you got it in) does not
really matter all that much--and where
you got your bachelor's and master's
from matters even less. If you have
a bachelor's and master's from Julliard
(and are too burned out after getting
them to finish a doctorate), you won't be
able to teach permanently anywhere.

Let me add one other observation I didn't make in my earlier post: Because you are going to have to attend a graduate program to prepare for your goal of being a professor of music, there may actually be a hidden benefit to attending a school like UA rather than a more prestigious music program or conservatory: You will have a greater chance of standing out among the other UA piano majors, and if you follow the strategy I and others described of being proactive and seeking out faculty and experiences at UA, you will distinguish yourself to the faculty there. The faculty in turn will be absolutely delighted to have a student who is more talented and motivated than they typically encounter, and they will lavish all sorts of attention on you (and work hard to get you into a good graduate program; faculty reap rewards when their students get placed in good schools).

This happened to me eons ago when I applied for college. I got turned down by my first choice, Stanford, which was a tremendous crushing blow at the time. I ended up going to U. of California, Riverside, which doesn't exactly have a blistering academic reputation. However, I was one of the better and more motivated undergraduates they had encountered in some years, and as a result I got all sorts of attention and intensive research and internship opportunities that I would not have gotten at Stanford, where I would have been just another bright student surrounded by hundreds of equally if not brighter students. As a result I was able to get accepted at several top-notch graduate schools. I'm telling you this not to blow my own horn, but to demonstrate that with the benefit of hindsight, I can honestly say now that getting turned down by Stanford and going to UCR instead was one of the best things that happened for my career. And Gyro is right; when you go on the market for an academic position in music, where you obtained your undergraduate degree will have very little if any impact; it's where you got your graduate degree that will count.

You can obtain excellent training and achieve your dreams by starting at UA, and it sounds like you have a healthy attitude and plan for doing just that. I hope you will remember this thread and give us an update after you get to UA to let us know what you think of it.

I would imagine that Professor Penick has an incredible amount of knowledge to share with you, as she's been on the faculty since 1955! And I looked her up on Google, and she just recently (Feb.) gave a recital. Good luck -- just take advantage of everything offered that will further your abilities and love of piano and music in general. Work as hard as you can and stay focused. You'll be amazed at how much you will improve in a year or two. Keep us posted!

BTW...good decision not to do marching band.

Marching Band is evil. I don't know a single person who's been able to major in performance and keep a strong practice schedule while being involved in the band.

I don't disagree with everything you said, but I do with 99% of it. No, it doesn't necesarily matter where you get your degree from as long as it is an official degree, BUT what if you are applying for a teaching position with degrees from a state college with a mediocre music departament, and you are competiting with someone who holds degrees from Peabody and Indiana?

Also, why would someone be "burned out" after 4 years at Juilliard? Just becuase it demands an extreme work ethic and lacks the traditons of a normal college, like drunken frat parties and a football team?? If you seriously think everyone who attends Juilliard is burned out after 4 years, then you need a reality check.

If your aspirations are high, then you should be feeling the same amount of pressure to succeed, regardless of weather you're at Juilliard or at a state/community college.

Double Post, sorry

I also disagree with the notion that you need a doctorate to teach at university level.

Perhaps it is harder, but it is not out of the question.

Just a quick reply for now. I will preface all of this by saying that, in a performance major, your teacher is THE most important consideration. If you don't take a lesson in advance of your audition [or at least the beginning of your first semester], you already have two strikes against you, IMHO.

I have 3 degrees in piano performance, 2 from a fairly prestigious conservatory and the DMA from a large, well-known state university. I am on the faculty at a college [working my way up from the bottom of the totem pole--full time adjunct to hopefully a full-time applied teaching job].

One thing I did not see here is any comparison of what you'd be doing as a piano performance major between the different types of college situations. Each degree is different, and should influence your decision greatly.

At the conservatory, the degree requirements included 3 years of theory, 4 semesters of history, 4 semesters of piano literature, a required-attendance recital series, lessons every semester, and courses in sightreading, accompanying, chamber music, pedagogy, and keyboard theory.

The state university's undergrad program doesn't have this level of comprehensive keyboard study at all. Some things are represented for sure, but not for as many semesters [for example, 1 semester of piano lit instead of 4]. There are a bunch more liberal arts/sciences/math courses that are required. You may like that, you might not.

The state university facilities were nicer than the conservatory's, but that isn't the case everywhere. There were good faculty and bad faculty at both places. The "pressure" argument is overstated greatly; sometimes it is helpful to be around better pianists than you in order to keep you motivated to improve. The disparity between the "median" student's ability at the state university vs. the conservatory isn't that huge, it's the difference between the finest and weakest students at each place you'd notice most.

I wouldn't trade my conservatory undergrad education [and the debt incurred] for anything. Having at least one degree from a prestigious place and having studied with at least one teacher who has international credentials can [in general] be helpful when job interview time comes. Have a good recording ready at all times-- some piano professor searches tend to quickly become like piano competitions... A teaching assistantship in the area you are interested in can also be a great help [assuming your TA supervisor will make a few phone calls on your behalf]. Since I am in the market right now, about 90% of applied piano job openings REQUIRE that you have a doctoral degree to apply. Ironically, most of the world's most prestigious pianists and teachers don't even have a bachelor's degree, though.

Hope this helps. Sorry it got rather long-winded.

The marching band issue. At first
glance, it would seem to be a bad idea: because of
the thing about the piano being a jealous mistress,
intolerant of other instruments; it would
take too much time away from piano practicing;
playing three instruments would dilute
the time you could devote to any one of
them; etc. But in some circumstances
it could be okay. First, it's
music, and if it helps with your understanding
of music and musicianship in general, helps
with your music reading, and gives you things
musically that you would otherwise not get by
just playing piano, then it would be
good rather than bad. Second, some individuals
love band and consider it great fun,
and love and fun is important in music.
If band gives you passion and enjoyment
with respect to music that you would otherwise
not get by just playing piano, then it would
be a good thing, rather than bad. But this
all is assuming that you still will be
able to put in as much quality time
practicing piano as you would if you weren't
in band--you'd probably need to carry a portable
88-weighted key piano with you on road trips
with the band.

The prestigious school issue. Suppose you
got your piano performance bachelor's
from UA, and then wanted to experience
music in other areas of the country and got
your master's from Idaho, and your
doctorate from North Dakota. And then
in interviews you're competing against
people with degrees from, say, Peabody,
Julliard, and Eastman. At first glance, it
might appear that you would be at a
disadvantage, but not necessarily. This
is the real world now, and things like
how you come across in the interview,
your passion for your calling, you as
a person rather than you as a set of
degrees, etc., then come into play as well
what schools you happened to attend. Here
the fact that you were in the marching
band at UA for 4 yrs. and yet managed
to get a piano perf. deg. with honors,
would be an asset. As would the fact
that you were adventurous and willing
to experience music in places that are
not generally known for high-performance
piano programs, and yet you thrived in
them, absorbing all they had to offer
and graduating with honors.

Well, I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with some of the positions advanced here.

First, I'm with Gyro on the doctorate issue. Most adjunct faculty stay that way. They teach piano or horn or whatever, and that is all they do at the college. They often have private students on the side and/or play in various professional settings outside of the college. It can be a fine life, but they are not quite equal (pay, prestige, etc) to the regular faculty. If you aspire to be a card carrying member of the faculty, the doctorate is the entry ticket for the most part.

On the band issue I think it cuts both ways. The second instrument is a very good idea. My son studies composition privately with a faculty member at W&M. She was very pleased to learn that he studies a second instrument (horn). She actually suggested in all seriousness that he try out violin as well. I put my foot down. But if you want to be a serious academic musician a knowledge of different instruments is a great advantage. But one doesn't need to be in band to study multiple instruments seriously. Each individual must weigh the time drain issue against the other benefits.

I wish this were true, but it is often not.

Making the cut into the interview round is absurdly difficult-- a piano search at my school yielded 93 candidates who met the application requirements. 4 people were called in for an interview. All 4 had at least one degree from a prestigious "piano school"-- and I would consider our department to be among the second-tier in Texas. Two of the applicants who already worked full-time at the school didn't even make it to the interview round! The University of Oregon position had over 300 [not a typo] applicants! When you're being scrutinized on paper alone, you want every possible advantage to even get into that interview. After "making the cut", indeed, it's all up to you-- and not your degrees-- to get hired.

The flip side to this-- Connections with a job you are interested in are helpful, of course. If it's a local job, a recommendation from a well-known local faculty member might make a difference. Some big-time teachers don't really care enough about job placement for their students, so it's worth asking how others students of a particular teacher fared in the "real" world.

I cannot believe this. This is the stuff
of anecdote, not the real world. Consider
it this way. If you were an interviewer,
would you choose 4 people out of 93
sight-unseen, based entirely on where they
got their degrees? No interviewers anywhere,
in the real world, would do that.

Actually, they do. We get hundreds of applications for every position in my department. We schedule half hour meetings at a conference for maybe twelve of them. The first cut is based on paper credentials, so it is in a sense sight-unseen. Most academic department use credentials as signals. If you got into Princeton for your Ph.D. that says that you are more likely to be a productive scholar than if you did your graduate work at Mississippi. Everyone knows the anecdotal "diamond in the rough" because we've all seen some. That's why we DO look at all applicants before setting our interview schedule, but someone from a lower ranked graduate program gets very little benefit of the doubt. There must be something truly distinctive about them before we consider advancing them out of the general applicant pool.

Band can be a wonderful experience, but in this case I think it is a good idea for Nathan to skip it.

Why? Because he already admitted to feeling that he was behind in his piano studies.

Nathan,

I've been following this thread through its different twists and turns. My suggestion, as one who didn't have the self esteem, to go into music, and now regrets it, is to try for a smaller school. The one that comes to mind is Longy School of Music up in Cambridge, MA.

What I would do is work towards the entrance requirements of the conservatory. These appear to be the same whether you are applying at Boston, New England or Longy. Study with a good piano teacher, and let him or her know what your goals are. I am sure they would be more than happy to lead you in the right direction.

The reason why I suggest Longy is that it is a smaller school that does not have the competition of the bigger ones such as Boston, Peabody, or New England. The Longy piano department I think only has four or five faculty members, and handful of students. These faculty members are, in many cases, also on the faculty at New England, or are former New England members. They include such people as Victor Rosenbaum and many others.

So having said this, try for the school first, then once you're there, you can then aim in the direction for your career. Having given up a music career in favor of something I don't like, I don't want to see someone else do the same thing. Because of this, I am now, after nearly 27 years of floundering around, I am finally finishing off my IT degree!

John

I think someone who, for example, played
in the marching band for 4 yrs. at UA,
and graduated with honors, and then did the
same at Idaho and N. Dakota, would look
as attractive as someone what has only
degrees from Peabody, Julliard, and
Eastman, and nothing else, going for him.

Sorta. The problem is that a LOT of marching band time is not devoted to music. A lot of time is spent learning the show, dealing with uniforms, sitting in the stands waiting for halftime, travelling to away games, etc... I think it would be preferable to play in wind ensemble - then you'd get the benefits that Gyro describes without all the negatives.

If you don't have a doctorate, you probably don't have a good chance to teach at the uni level for long. A doctorate is almost a necessity. I think I want to teach at college, too, and I won't apply anywhere until I have my doctorate.

My dad taught double bass, music history, and some theory and other classes at some colleges, but didn't do it long because he never got his doctorate, so they kicked him out. He was a great prof, and all the kids liked his classes a lot, but it didn't matter. Sure, he got his Bachelor's and Master's from Indiana, but he didn't have his doctorate, so he got fired. You really do need to have a doctorate to have a secure job as a piano prof.