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#556665 - 02/15/07 07:48 PM Joyce Hatto hoax
pianojerome Offline
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
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#556666 - 02/15/07 07:57 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3915
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Absolutely astonishing.

It was amazing, though, that anyone could record all of that music. I've got her Hammerklavier, which I haven't listened to as yet. I wonder who recorded it?
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

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#556667 - 02/15/07 08:34 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Bassio Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 2480
Loc: Alexandria, Egypt
Amazing!! \:D

But I have one question:
Who the f*** is Joyce Hatto?

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#556668 - 02/15/07 09:27 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Bassio Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 2480
Loc: Alexandria, Egypt
PianoGate

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#556669 - 02/15/07 09:36 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
it's shocking things like this could ever happen...

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#556670 - 02/15/07 09:51 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Brendan Offline



Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5318
Loc: McAllen, TX
Oh. My. God.

This is unbelievable, I have a friend who will be very[/b] interested to read this.
_________________________
http://www.BrendanKinsella.com

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#556671 - 02/15/07 10:15 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8903
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Yes indeed, this is very[/b] interesting. For several years I've read glowing reviews of Hatto in Gramophone, but something about the whole thing just seemed a bit dodgy. I wondered how a woman in such poor health could have made such landmark recordings of some of the most piano difficult literature.

I had planned on purchasing some of her CDs, but the music would always have duplicated existing -and satisfactory- recordings in my library. After Hamelin, I didn't feel a necessity to duplicate the Godowsky Studies or add yet another Rachmaninov 3 from any pianist.
_________________________
Jason

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#556672 - 02/15/07 10:22 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3915
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by argerichfan:
...I wondered how a woman in such poor health could have made such landmark recordings of some of the most piano difficult literature.... [/b]
Her disease did give an excuse for her never playing in public, however (she claimed never to be able to predict when the pain from her disease was going to hit her).

I've got to listen to that Op. 106 soon.

I remember that her Barcarolle (or the one attributed to her) was pretty good but not great. I could post it. Who would sue me?

She claimed two recordings of the Chopin Études, one made on her 70th or 75th birthday. I'd love to compare the two now, to see if (with hindsight, of course) one could conclude that the set would have to have been made by two different pianists (they were purported to have been recorded only a few years apart).

(Sigh) One fantasy dashed, though - the idea that one could devote oneself assiduously to Cortot's Rational Principles..., which she claimed to have done and really achieve broad mastery of the piano literature.
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

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#556673 - 02/15/07 10:28 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8903
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Palindrome:
Her disease did give an excuse for her never playing in public, however (she claimed never to be able to predict when the pain from her disease was going to hit her).
Yes, I had read something to that effect, yet how much of this in hindsight can I believe? Gramophone (according to the link posted above) will have an article in the April issue. I wouldn't post the Chopin right now.
_________________________
Jason

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#556674 - 02/15/07 10:34 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3915
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by argerichfan:
...I wouldn't post the Chopin right now. [/b]
Why not? It'll be a great "Guess the Pianist!" ;\)

I'll bet a lot of those guys proven not to be the father of Anna Nicole Smith\'s Baby start claiming to be the true pianists in the Hatto recordings. \:D

And Jason, what are you doing up at 4:30 in the morning over there in London?
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

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#556675 - 02/16/07 12:18 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Lee_Gato Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/06
Posts: 60
Someone also posted a thread regarding this on gff. This is rather intersting stuff. I have both her Chopets and Chopgods that were recorded in her 70's. I remember comparing her Chopgod No 2 Op.10 No.1 D Flat Major-Left Hand and to Hamelin's, and being were impressed. I've also been contemplating buying her recently released complete Ravel which was favorably reviewed: http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=10667

While the evidence posted at pristineclassical is pretty damning on the face of it, I would like to see further substantiation. I would also like to hear a formal response from Joyce's husband, who owns and runs her label, Concert Artists.

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#556676 - 02/16/07 03:27 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8903
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lee_Gato:
While the evidence posted at pristineclassical is pretty damning on the face of it, I would like to see further substantiation.
So would we all and I expect Gramophone will have much to say about this in the April issue, not to mention more brash publications like Fanfare getting into the act.

Once again, I will simply go on record as saying that, whilst I never had any inside information, the various reviews I read of Hatto's CDs caused a suspicion that something was amiss.
_________________________
Jason

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#556677 - 02/16/07 07:19 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
AndrewG Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2506
Loc: Denver, Colorado
I'd be very interested to see how the story or 'mystery' unfolds.

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#556678 - 02/16/07 07:45 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Aha! The "Piltdown Pianist!" :rolleyes:

-Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#556679 - 02/16/07 12:40 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
dannylux Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 1820
Loc: Connecticut
Interesting discussions here:


http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,23524.0.html


And here:


http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,19312.0.html


Apparently Baghdad Bob is a member of pianostreet.

Mel
_________________________
My Recordings

"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. What you will receive in return varies. But it really has no connection with what you give. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn

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#556680 - 02/16/07 01:13 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8903
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by dannylux:
Interesting discussions here:
Bollocks, another forum! I spend enough time here (plus an organ and an Anglican church music forum)... perish the thought of getting involved in another. :rolleyes:
_________________________
Jason

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#556681 - 02/16/07 03:20 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Tavner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 376
Loc: San Diego
Amazing! Talk about chutzpah to use another's recording and pawn it off as one's own. Should be interesting if and when more details emerge about the true culprit (husband? Hatto herself? or group of conspirators?)
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#556682 - 02/16/07 03:58 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
Well, I'm out a bunch. I recently acquired a lot of her recordings - Beethoven Sonatas, Ravel, Debussy, Schubert, Mozart. One wonders what her husband was thinking if this proves to be the case.

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#556683 - 02/16/07 04:47 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by kluurs:
Well, I'm out a bunch. [/b]
No you're not, if they're as good as they're made out to be. So maybe it wasn't really her playing, but in the end you still have CDs.
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Sam

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#556684 - 02/16/07 05:54 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Lemon Pledge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 353
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
 Quote:
Originally posted by kluurs:
Well, I'm out a bunch. [/b]
No you're not, if they're as good as they're made out to be.[/b]
Well, there's the rub, right? Are the recordings as good as they have been made out to be? I won't go so far as saying that we all hear what we expect to hear, but certainly our reactions and evaluations are affected by more than just the sound. We take into account all the information we have, whether we like it or not, I think. And the critics who fawned over these discs were apparently provided with some very inaccurate information. You can almost the hear the gears turning--slowly--in the critic brain: this pianist has mastered a ridiculous amount of rep, therefore she must be some sort of genius, and therefore her interpretations must be running over with all manner of revelatory insights. And she must have a truly unique, personal voice. \:\)

I haven't heard any Hatto recordings. I did catch some of the buzz, but I was never suspicious. Ashkenazy has recorded everything, so why not Hatto? I suppose that I just wasn't intrigued enough to buy any of the discs. I confess that I won't be disappointed if they are proven to be frauds, primarily because I find the star-cult mentality (the idea that there are a few godlike artists who alone are worthy of attention and support, because they always play better than the lesser mortals) to be absurd. Also, it would be nice to see this turn out well for all the Nojimas and Simons out there.

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#556685 - 02/16/07 09:40 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3915
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
 Quote:
Originally posted by kluurs:
Well, I'm out a bunch. [/b]
No you're not, if they're as good as they're made out to be. So maybe it wasn't really her playing, but in the end you still have CDs. [/b]
Yes, he is. I've seen Ken's CD collection. He's already got everything else, which would mean the original recordings from which the Hatto discs may have been pirated (time and more checking by eagle-eared* and technologically savvy persons will tell).

*If eagles have good eyes, I suppose the metaphor will not be misunderstood, whether or not the birds hear well, also.
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

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#556686 - 02/17/07 10:24 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
calpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 146
Loc: California
I'm speechless... is this woman real? From reading the story I would've thought it was a much, much more well-elaborated variation of one of those "cancer patients" who coincidentally die off the minute that skepticism arises. But if she was in fact a real person I of course intend no disrespect toward her, at least not in this way.

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#556687 - 02/17/07 10:56 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
dannylux Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 1820
Loc: Connecticut
From:

The New York Times

More interesting reading:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/topics

More evidence from an independent source:

http://www.charm.rhul.ac.uk/content/contact/hatto_article.html


There are currently 104 Joyce Hatto CDs in print and 50 more awaiting production!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WT !

Mel
_________________________
My Recordings

"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. What you will receive in return varies. But it really has no connection with what you give. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn

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#556688 - 02/17/07 11:39 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10385
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
The statistical evidence seems overwhelming.
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https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#556689 - 02/17/07 12:15 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8903
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by dannylux:
There are currently 104 Joyce Hatto CDs in print and 50 more awaiting production!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
50?[/b] This is truly getting more bizarre all the time.
_________________________
Jason

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#556690 - 02/17/07 01:21 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3475
Loc: US
I just read the article in the NY Times this morning. wow. The evidence is pretty convincing so far. The question is going to be-- are any of these recordings legitimate? Did anyone here ever hear her play in person?


Sophia

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#556691 - 02/19/07 12:48 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
dannylux Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 1820
Loc: Connecticut
 Quote:
Originally posted by sophial:
Did anyone here ever hear her play in person?
Sophia [/b]
Not since her last concert in London in 1976. Some websites report 1979 as the year of her last concert.

The severe pain she experienced from cancer would overtake her anytime during a performance, so she gave up performing in public.

She fought that horrible disease for 36 years.

This is getting stranger and stranger.

She was apparently a phenomenally gifted pianist.

From a review of her Wigmore Hall debut in 1954:

The Guardian's Neville Cardus wrote of her Brahms Paganini Variations that they were "despatched in a seamless riot of ecstatic bravura laced with underlying deep musical feeling rarely countenanced in this work".

She was the first person in modern times to play all of the Beethoven-Liszt Symphonies in concert.

At another concert, she played the 12 Transendental Etudes, preceeded by Liszt's first version of the TEs.

She was told by the London Conservatory (correction: this should be the Royal Acadamy of Music) that, being a woman, she would do better to learn to cook a good roast than to study piano.

She studied with Marian Holbrooke, Serge Krish ( Busoni's pupil), Benno Moiseiwitsch, Nicolai Medtner, Alfred Cortot, Matyas Seiber, Clara Haskil, Nadia Boulanger, and others.

I've got[/b] to hear some authentic Hatto.

I have "her" Chopin-Godowsky Studies and the ChopEts.

The ChopGods are reported to be Carlo Grante's recording speeded up.

"Her" ChopGods were rated 10/10. The review is here:

http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=10551

My God, that woman was amazing!

She managed to make Carlo Grante sound like a great pianist.

Mel
_________________________
My Recordings

"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. What you will receive in return varies. But it really has no connection with what you give. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn

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#556692 - 02/19/07 01:20 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8903
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by dannylux:
She was the first person in modern times to play all of the Beethoven-Liszt Symphonies in concert.

At another concert, she played the 12 Transendental Etudes, preceeded by Liszt's first version of the TEs.
Any reviews of these concerts? I remain unconvinced.

I have the scores to both the Beethoven-Liszt and the earlier version of Liszt's TE. Throw in the Godowsky nonsense -I have those scores too- and I smell a rat. Pure and simple. The pianist that no one has ever heard of that just happens to negotiate this impossibly difficult repertoire with the ease that would make Hamelin blush? Bullshit.
_________________________
Jason

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#556693 - 02/19/07 04:31 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
This link posted by Dannylux was very revealing. Fascinating analysis method for comparing recordings.

More evidence from an independent source:

http://www.charm.rhul.ac.uk/content/contact/hatto_article.html

I agree with pianodad, it seems to me to be conclusive that at least some of the Hatto recordings have been misrepresented.
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#556694 - 02/19/07 05:45 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
drumour Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 860
Loc: Scotland
"She was told by the London Conservatory that, being a woman, she would do better to learn to cook a good roast than to study piano."

Except there's no such thing as the London Conservatory and to my knowledge there never has been.


John
_________________________
Vasa inania multum strepunt.

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