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#556695 - 02/19/07 06:13 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
dannylux Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 1818
Loc: Connecticut
It was the Royal Academy of Music.

My mistake.

Roast

Mel
_________________________
My Recordings

"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. What you will receive in return varies. But it really has no connection with what you give. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn

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#556696 - 02/19/07 07:15 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
drumour Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 855
Loc: Scotland
Odd, really. Plenty of women came through the London music colleges and there were well-known woman musicians. I could imagine, though, the patronising "being a woman, she would do better to learn to cook a good roast" response to an inadequate audition or subsequent assessment at that time.


John
_________________________
Vasa inania multum strepunt.

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#556697 - 02/19/07 08:01 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
andrewp Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/04
Posts: 494
Loc: united kingdom
There will be a lot of egg on a lot of faces among the critics who have praised here so highly. It will be interesting to see how many of the recordings turn out to be fakes once they are all examined.

The mind boggles when it comes to trying to guess at the motivation for perpetrating such a hoax. Perhaps it was done to show up the gullibility of a lot of the critics... I wonder how Laszlo's Liszt went down at the time it was released.

I wonder to whom the mantle of 'greatest pianist no one has ever heard of' might now pass to? Perhaps that kind of thinking was just too goood to be true!

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#556698 - 02/19/07 08:04 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
ftp Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 2365
Loc: Philadelphia
Very interesting whodunit and I tend to believe it.

What I don't undertstand is that with this mountain of potential evidence there must be lots of people involved--so why is there not more in the news on the modus operandi?

Whats the motive and how was it done? We need it for a good story.

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#556699 - 02/19/07 08:34 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
dannylux Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 1818
Loc: Connecticut
By David Hurwitz in www.classicstoday.com "Will The Real Joyce Hatto Please Stand Up":

Part 1

Part 2


I think this is going to get even stranger.

Mel
_________________________
My Recordings

"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. What you will receive in return varies. But it really has no connection with what you give. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn

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#556700 - 02/19/07 09:41 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10356
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
The link that Mel and Adrian provided is a statistical analysis. The acoustical signature analaysis is of a different sort entirely. The combination seems quite convincing. I suspect over the next month or two every recording ascribed to her will be thoroughly analyzed.

Reporters smell a good story, after all, and this one has all the elements of high drama. How can you beat it; the tragedy in her life, the feminist/discrimination angle, the technical wizardry involved and subsequent use of technology to expose things, the self-important critics wearing egg. Oh, it's all so potentially delicious to a writer. I smell a book soon, and potentially a movie. It could easily be on par with "A Beautiful Mind." If you can make a mathematician-economist seem interesting........

Cheers,

D

P.S. I wonder when Ivan Davis will say something. I studied with one of his colleagues (Rosalina Sackstein) at Miami back in the 70s, and I heard him play on occasion.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#556701 - 02/19/07 10:14 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
dannylux Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 1818
Loc: Connecticut
 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
I wonder when Ivan Davis will say something. [/b]
Posted by cmg last night on pianostreet:

"Well, for what this is worth to those already convinced of fraud in the Hatto affair, I spoke last night with Ivan Davis, expecting that he might be horrified and mortified at the lastest developments. He just laughed. His faith in the veracity of the Hatto recordings remains unshaken."

More from cmg here:

pianostreet


Mel
_________________________
My Recordings

"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. What you will receive in return varies. But it really has no connection with what you give. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn

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#556702 - 02/19/07 10:38 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3461
Loc: US
 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
The link that Mel and Adrian provided is a statistical analysis. The acoustical signature analaysis is of a different sort entirely. The combination seems quite convincing. I suspect over the next month or two every recording ascribed to her will be thoroughly analyzed.

Reporters smell a good story, after all, and this one has all the elements of high drama. How can you beat it; the tragedy in her life, the feminist/discrimination angle, the technical wizardry involved and subsequent use of technology to expose things, the self-important critics wearing egg. Oh, it's all so potentially delicious to a writer. I smell a book soon, and potentially a movie. It could easily be on par with "A Beautiful Mind." If you can make a mathematician-economist seem interesting........

Cheers,

D

P.S. I wonder when Ivan Davis will say something. I studied with one of his colleagues (Rosalina Sackstein) at Miami back in the 70s, and I heard him play on occasion. [/b]
After reading the Hurwitz articles this morning, the evidence seems overwhelming. The questions of course will be who did it and why. The back story to this should be fascinating. David, this might be more like "Shine" in reverse... "Tarnished" perhaps?

Sophia

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#556703 - 02/19/07 11:09 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10356
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
 Quote:
He just laughed. His faith in the veracity of the Hatto recordings remains unshaken.
It's certainly worth keeping an open mind, but for those of us who are not invested in this issue at all, "faith" isn't a word to apply. Ultimately, Davis and everyone else who believes deeply that these recordings are authentic, has to contend with the acoustical and statistical evidence.

If, for instance, one could show that two performances played by different people (and this fact is verified independently) could have an exactly matching acoustical signature, then that would be some counter-evidence. On the other hand, even if such a match is possible, it may be such a rarity that multiple cases of match (and with different pianists) would have to be regarded as solid evidence of fraud.

For now, we should all keep an open mind. There will be a continuing process of analysis, I'm sure, and more and more evidence will accumulate. Eventually, the weight of that evidence will allow reasonable people to draw some conclusions.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#556704 - 02/19/07 12:01 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
w_scott_iv@yahoo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 1120
Loc: West Virginia
Don't be too quick to assume that the Hatto recordings are worthless - they could become prized by collectors as keepsakes of one of the greatest musical scandals of our time.

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#556705 - 02/19/07 12:07 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8860
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by w_scott@verizon.net:
Don't be too quick to assume that the Hatto recordings are worthless - they could become prized by collectors as keepsakes of one of the greatest musical scandals of our time.
Shades of Milli Vanilli, albeit on a more grandiose scale... so to speak.
_________________________
Jason

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#556706 - 02/19/07 01:06 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Octavia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 283
Loc: California
This article provides some more detail. Apparently the name of a conductor and an entire orchestra were faked for concerto recordings!

Stereophile
_________________________
"These are the good old days" --Carly Simon

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#556707 - 02/19/07 01:34 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
John Citron Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 3925
Loc: Haverhill, Massachusetts
I have to laugh...

This goes to show how simple it is to fake a recording today using off-the-shelf software. I'm glad I don't go out and purchase a lot of music CDs.

So from now on, we can no longer post just recordings of us playing. We will have to use You-Tube, or some other means to show a full video of the performance! :p

John
_________________________
Nothing.

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#556708 - 02/19/07 01:57 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3461
Loc: US
 Quote:
Originally posted by Octavia:
This article provides some more detail. Apparently the name of a conductor and an entire orchestra were faked for concerto recordings!

[/b]
Interesting article but the statistics are wrong. A correlation of .999 between sets of 54 independent observations would occur by chance less than one in 10,000 times, not 1 in a thousand. It is probably even less than that, the result came out at p<.0001. One question of course is how highly correlated two performances of the same pieces of music by different performers are in general and how different this correlation would be from that, since we would expect some relationship. I would bet this .999 correlation is substantially and significantly higher.

Sophia

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#556709 - 02/19/07 08:53 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1659
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
The statement at the website seems to be a bit dodgy:

http://concertartistrecordings.com/
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#556710 - 02/19/07 09:21 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10356
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Maybe my Safari browser doesn't like that website, but nothing much is coming up.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#556711 - 02/19/07 09:58 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
LiszThalberg Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3288
It's working for me P*D.... then again, I'm using Explorer.

Matt

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#556712 - 02/19/07 10:22 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8860
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Maybe my Safari browser doesn't like that website, but nothing much is coming up.
Ah, another Mac user! There are several websites I visit that don't like Safari so would suggest Firefox.
_________________________
Jason

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#556713 - 02/19/07 10:58 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1659
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by dannylux:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sophial:
[The Guardian's Neville Cardus wrote of her Brahms Paganini Variations that they were "despatched in a seamless riot of ecstatic bravura laced with underlying deep musical feeling rarely countenanced in this work".


Mel [/b]
Neville Cardus is a critic I respect. It's a pity that Hatto's husband apparently felt the need to defraud the public with false representations of his wife's playing.
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#556714 - 02/20/07 04:07 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
dannylux Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 1818
Loc: Connecticut
William Barrington-Coupe:

" My wife's virtuoso recordings are genuine".

Speaking at his home in Royston, Herts, Mr Barrington-Coupe, 76, said: "She was the sole pianist on those recordings. I was there at all the important sessions, I was the engineer on the jobs and I take full responsibility for everything released on my label Concert Artist".


from telegraph.co.uk


Mel
_________________________
My Recordings

"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. What you will receive in return varies. But it really has no connection with what you give. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn

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#556715 - 02/20/07 04:58 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8860
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by dannylux:
Speaking at his home in Royston, Herts, Mr Barrington-Coupe, 76, said: "She was the sole pianist on those recordings. I was there at all the important sessions, I was the engineer on the jobs and I take full responsibility for everything released on my label Concert Artist".
As well you should take responsibility...

The British press have been caught with their collective pants down and the Americans are going to make a meal of it.
_________________________
Jason

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#556716 - 02/20/07 06:59 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
mazeppa Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 17
Loc: Wales UK
Last September, I well remember a BBC "Building a Library" review of the Chopin Etudes and Joyce Hatto's "recording" came a very close second to Pollini's overall, with several Etudes actually being preferred to Pollini's.

Now I am very fascinated to find out who Pollini's main rival really was. Could it have been himself?

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#556717 - 02/20/07 08:21 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
dannylux Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 1818
Loc: Connecticut
 Quote:
Originally posted by Octavia:
This article provides some more detail. Apparently the name of a conductor and an entire orchestra were faked for concerto recordings!
[/b]
Question: Is it possible for an 80 piece orchestra to fit into a modest home recording studio?

Answer: Yes, if it arrives in a jewel case.


Mel
_________________________
My Recordings

"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. What you will receive in return varies. But it really has no connection with what you give. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn

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#556718 - 02/20/07 08:32 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1659
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by dannylux:
William Barrington-Coupe:

" My wife's virtuoso recordings are genuine".

Speaking at his home in Royston, Herts, Mr Barrington-Coupe, 76, said: "She was the sole pianist on those recordings. I was there at all the important sessions, I was the engineer on the jobs and I take full responsibility for everything released on my label Concert Artist".


from telegraph.co.uk


Mel [/b]
It's interesting that Barrington-Coupe never disloses, nor indicated he will disclose, any proof of those sessions. He's seems unwilling to produce, in the flesh, one orchestra player or one recording engineer that was involved in the alleged recordings.

Curious.
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#556719 - 02/20/07 11:55 AM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8860
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by dannylux:
Question: Is it possible for an 80 piece orchestra to fit into a modest home recording studio?

Answer: Yes, if it arrives in a jewel case.
So that's how he did it... \:D
_________________________
Jason

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#556720 - 02/20/07 02:49 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3461
Loc: US
This is an excerpt from the following article by Ates Orga on the musicweb site listed below, written apparently before recent events blew this whole thing open. I hope it's ok to post a short excerpt if credited. It is almost eerie in its description of the difficulty involved in finding information that can be corroborated about her. I thought this was fascinating.

http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2006/Jan06/Hatto_Orga_1.htm

"Finding out anything about Joyce, anything corroborative, is a challenge. Her lack of vanity, self-effacement, and desire to be behind the composer, the music, the CD, to be the medium rather than the personality, has over the years created an effective information block. Odd programmes and advertisements surface from time to time. And there’s the standard management biography. But otherwise one hunts vainly for information. No dictionary or handbook entries. Virtually no third-party references. Few readily accessible reviews from her concert days (she’s never kept press cuttings). Her Concert Artist CDs however, offering an in-depth picture of her (present day) strengths and breadth, have helped redress the balance somewhat, attracting notice in Europe and America."

Indeed they have attracted notice.

Sophia

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#556721 - 02/20/07 04:12 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21445
Loc: Oakland
I wonder if the other recordings on that label are the artists they purport to be.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#556722 - 02/20/07 05:22 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
serge1paris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 163
Loc: Paris
The pianist playing the Chopin Etudes has been identified. He is a Japanese pianist: Matsugawa or something close to that name. Anyone has the Mozart Sonatas and the Chopin Etudes ??? I would like to have a hint....

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#556723 - 02/20/07 05:24 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
they updated wiki on this and it has a list of recordings in question:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_Hatto

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#556724 - 02/20/07 10:19 PM Re: Joyce Hatto hoax
Opus_Maximus Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/04
Posts: 1485
This whole thing is truly incredible - how come I haven't heard of her before??

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