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#55738 - 07/02/08 04:20 PM Re: Carbon Fiber Actions in M&H?
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1741
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally posted by Del:
Originally posted by John Pels:
Del, not to belabor the glue thing, but what sort of glue are you using to attach the hammers to the composite shanks? Or..is there another method of attachment? [/b]
I’ve not reached that stage as yet. Soon. I’m told regular pvc adhesives work well so I’m going to first try my normal shop glue which is called MP II. It’s an industrial “aliphatic resin” adhesive similar to Titebond II but without the colorants and a few other additives which make Titebond more suitable for hardware store sales.

ddf [/b]
Del, if I may ask, who manufactures MP II?

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#55739 - 07/02/08 05:28 PM Re: Carbon Fiber Actions in M&H?
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5410
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally posted by Roy123:
Del, if I may ask, who manufactures MP II? [/b]
I don’t know who manufactures it. We purchase it from CP Adhesives[/b]:

And “MP II” was a typo; it should have been “MPA II.”

CP Adhesives is not actually a manufacturer. They repackage a variety of adhesives normally available only to very large users into quantities normal mortals can afford to purchase. Hence we are able to purchase MPA II in 5–gallon quantities. (I just checked their website and have discovered that “MPA II” is now packaged as CP-0201 and can be ordered online. You can still purchase it as MPA II if you call the company directly but it’s the same stuff.)

Another adhesive I’ve considered using for gluing hammers to these graphite tubes is their EVA; CP–0401. This is an ethylene vinyl acetate emulsion that is supposed to be good for bonding porous materials (wood) to non-porous materials (the graphite tube). We’ll see.

We have also used their urea and resorcinol adhesives. If you’re into pressing grand piano rims their CP-0503 is a good choice. It’s a powdered urea resin adhesive with a very long open time. It dries/cures hard and there is no springback.

If you are interested in their various adhesives you might want to download their Better Gluing Guide. It’s available as a PDF file download from their website. All of the adhesives I’ve purchased from this company have been of excellent quality.

Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

#55740 - 07/02/08 10:41 PM Re: Carbon Fiber Actions in M&H?
Gene Nelson Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1832
Loc: Old Hangtown California
One other issue on the shanks is the later process that would typically involve slightly bending or rotating the shank for final spacing and alignment to strings. Still required for WNG shanks.
I have heard of a failure of a shank when attempting the rotating but bending seemed to work ok without weakening it. - using heat -
So the hammer hanging process appears to require more precision at glue up.
PTG Member

#55741 - 07/03/08 12:44 AM Re: Carbon Fiber Actions in M&H?
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1165
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
THe factory was nice enough to supply what they use for my first application. Goes by the name of "Assembly 65". Probably similar to what Del is planning on using. CA also works but I'm not convince of the long term reliability.

In regard to what Gene mentioned about using heat to warp the shanks. To clarify, the shanks will twist (warp) nicely from side to side with a bit of direct heating. You can remove the heat from the shank with your fingers after twisting to freeze the position. Otherwise it will go back a little toward the original position. If the shanks is bent fore and aft while heated it will fail fairly readily.

I was able to remove glued on hammers after heating the "Assembling 65" with the cafreful application of heat. A hot plate with fine sand to immerse the joint in distributes the heat evenly.
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician

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#55742 - 07/09/08 04:42 PM Re: Carbon Fiber Actions in M&H?
Janneman Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 3
Originally posted by Craigen:
There is no question that Yamaha invoked a lot of controversy in the 1960's with their plastic jacks in uprights, then Kawai followed suit in a bigger way. Mosts techs line up on the side of modern synthetics, yet the controversy rages. It was not my goal to cast doubt on M&H, I am a real fan. I just wanted clarification on what I had heard. We got it from the horses mouth from Cecil. [/b]
I was working at the Dutch pianobuilding company Rippen in the 60-ties. They developped the Lindner model, and founded a new factory in Ireland for it. They used a lot of plastic in those lightweight piano, (mechanism and keyboard) but did forget to apply for patents. So Nippon_Gakki (the mother of Yamaha) did do so, after buying a Lindner from a Japanese reseller.
At the moment I'm working at a book on the Rippen/Lindner history. And just today I did happen to be involved with those patents- discussions.
The Rippen/Lindner-guys were a little bit too early, but no doubt, they did have clever ideas.

#55743 - 07/09/08 04:44 PM Re: Carbon Fiber Actions in M&H?
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Couldn't you play these pianos underwater?

#55744 - 07/09/08 05:45 PM Re: Carbon Fiber Actions in M&H?
Anne Francis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 553
Loc: Toronto, ON
I'm not a rebuilder, but I took Bruce Clark's class on the composite action parts at the University of Western Ontario's seminar in London, Ontario last month. It was really interesting. Yes, the action parts are nylon/glass composite and the hammer shanks are off-the-shelf carbon tubing. He cautioned against heating with an open flame! But said heat gun is ok.

He also said that in the future MH pianos may be offered with composite actions as an option but they're not planning wholesale replacement of the traditional action in their pianos anytime soon.

Bruce also mentioned that some performers (I think he said maybe a third) who've tried the composite action found a difference in playing and said they'd need to adjust to it; my sense was that it might be hard to control for some players. But overall most liked it.
Anne Francis
PTG Associate Member

Check out my blog! www.annefrancis.ca/blog

#1234929 - 07/21/09 04:37 PM Re: Carbon Fiber Actions in M&H? [Re: FogVilleLad]
Mal7 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 6
I am considering buying a Mason & Hamlin piano with the Wessell, Nickel & Gross composite action installed. I would be interested in finding out about how all the pianos rebuilt using these parts turned out, if there were any issues, and long term expectations.


#1234963 - 07/21/09 05:33 PM Re: Carbon Fiber Actions in M&H? [Re: Mal7]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3489
The action parts are supposed to be first rate. Ask Del Fandrich about them since I know that he's used them before.

#1234967 - 07/21/09 05:39 PM Re: Carbon Fiber Actions in M&H? [Re: Mal7]
Steve Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 704
Loc: Zichron Yaacov, Israel

Hi there:

I'm just finishing a Mason A with the composite parts. The action plays great and the regulation was smooth and straight forward. I know some have been used on some Yamahas at the Royal conservatory in Toronto where they will take a huge beating. There's a lot of advantages to it and they are good. There is no long term experience with them, but practically speaking, I expect them to last exceptionally well, or else I wouldn't have used them. They have been out there for a while under some demanding conditions and so far, all is well.

I would say, go for it.

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