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Ok, I am looking at the possibility of getting this:

http://www.amazon.com/Music-Minus-O...mp;s=books&qid=1189302970&sr=1-3

and learning the Tchaikovsky Concert. My question is, how technically hard is this piece really? I have learned two Chopin Waltzes (#3 in A minor, #7 in C#minor) and the Rachmaninoff Prelude in C#minor. I know that those are all considerably easier pieces, but my teacher is having me go through them to be sure that I have a firm repertoire before going on to fancier things.

So, what level do you consider this piece to be? Can I do it? I know my teacher wont let me learn it for my lessons, so it would have to be on the side, and therefore would take longer. But I have pretty good endurance when it comes to learning pieces.

Also, as I said, I am planning on eventually getting Music Minus One Piano sheet music for it, and the CDs. But, I was thinking that if I were going to learn it, maybe I should start out with only the sheet music, so that I can spend more time learning, and less time playing with the CD. Then, for performance (since I do not have an on-demand orchestra), I would get the CDs. So, what is a good edition? I have heard that something called the 'International' edition is good, but could not find it on Amazon. So any help on an edition and where to find it would be appreciated. Thanks.


Colin Thomson

Well, i can tell you that the Tcaikovsky concerto is considerably harder technically (and imo musically too) than those waltzes/preludes. As to whether you can do it? I have no idea.

Tchaikovsky concerto is very difficult. Have you played any concert etudes? Have you played any other concerti before? Bb- requires immense stamina and considerable technique. Your octave technique must be well established to tackle it. Most people start with an "easier" Romantic concerto such as Grieg before learning Tchaik.
But if you're really in love with the piece, go for it.

I would not suggest that you start off with this concerto. You should talk to your teacher and pick a concerto together to work on. It will be tough too especially if you choose to work on it on your own.

I second this suggestion. Grieg is very accessible, as are Schumann, Mendelssohn, Weber, MacDowell, and Saint-Saens. Tchaikovsky is really, really difficult.

One of my former teachers started me on a Mozart, then she gave me Grieg, then she gave me Rach 2. The gap between the Grieg and Rach 2 was ridiculous. I switched teachers quickly.

For a keyboard work with such rich structural content ... the Tchaikovsky PC Op. 23 (Bb minor) is arguably one of the neatest assemblies of dramatic note patterns of any PC (easy sight-reading) ... it's as though the composer wrote the work for two pianos (my copy is for two pianos) ... the balance of the two voices is stunning ... each has such a potent role that both piano and orchestral parts find themselves making subtle demands to share a keyboard hearing .

The dramatic F, Db, C, Bb (5,3,2,1) orchestral opening is followed by the piano entry with those characteristic triple chords (octave leaps)
and then the 5 measures of rippling 8 note arpeggios ... before the roles are reversed in the 25th measure and the soloist picks up the punchy 4-note theme.

Here's a copy of the opening measures to get you started.

web page

Colin :
This is not meant to be an unkind response to your post, but it is a call for you to be realistic.
Surely there is more to your "firm repertoire" than two Chopin Waltzes and a Rachmaninoff Prelude. What Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert, etc., etc., have you mastered? What "fancier things" has your teacher in mind for you?
The four or five pages represented by the Chopin Waltzes and the four pages of the Rachmaninoff Prelude are child's play compared to almost every page of the Tchaikovsky, and the first movement alone is 56 pages of some extremely demanding work (well, 56 pages in two-piano score). One reason your teacher wouldn't let you study it is because it is quite beyond your grasp at the moment; why would s/he waste both your times in trying to teach you something you won't be able to play?
I presume that you are paying your teacher to teach you. If that is the case, then I have to ask you what would the purpose be of using some of your "regular" practice time - or even adding extra practice time - to work on something vastly out of your league if you are not going to get instruction in it? I'm not trying to put you down, Colin; I'm just trying to encourage you to be realistic. Unless you just happen to have forgotten to mention that along with the two Chopin Waltzes and the Rachmaninoff Prelude you've also played quite a few Beethoven Sonatas and a couple of his Concertos along with one by Haydn and a couple by Mozart; a number of Chopin Etudes, the Ballades and the Scherzos; and perhaps some Schumann and Brahms thrown in for good measure, you simply won't be able to tackle the Tchaikovsky. Why would you want to torture yourself in thinking of starting something you won't be able to finish? It certainly doesn't make much sense to me when you could be spending that time building up your repertoire in logically, progressive steps, learning a dozen or more pieces, and getting the instruction on that repertoire that you're paying for.

You may, however, be determined, so I'll mention that there is a Schirmer edition of the Concerto in print and sheetmusicplus.com (see the side-bar on the right) is currently having a 20% sale on all Schirmer titles.

Regards,

Ok, thanks for all the help. Yes, I know that my repertoire is small, and that is why my teacher is making sure that I learn these pieces before fancier things (Liszt, in my case, and no, it is me not my teacher who really wants to do the 'fancier things'). I am working on all movements of the Moonlight Sonata with my teacher, as well as another Chopin Waltz, the Minute Waltz. I have played piano for a while, but only in the last year or two have I really gotten interested in classical music, thus the small repertoire. Also, I would be sure not to take time out of my practice schedule for the concerto, but only work on it after my four hours of regular practice. I know that this would be by far the hardest piece I have ever attempted, but I do love the piece. So, maybe someday.

For now, I guess you people have convinced me. I will keep working on what I have, and will look into that Grieg concerto.

So, the Rachmaninoff 2 is much easier than the Tchaikovsky 1? I might be interested in that some time as well. By the way, when you work on a piece like this with your teacher, do you ever use the Music Minus One Piano, or do you just play the piano part alone?

Thanks for all the advice.


Colin Thomson

Colin :

If you are eager to start a Concerto, why not try the Haydn D major or the Beethoven First? The Rachmaninoff Second is in the same league as the Tchaikovsky.

Regards,

BruceD's advice is excellent and it sounds like you are taking it along with the others who are being very polite...

Remind me. Wasn't the Tchaikovsky piece considered unplayable when debuted?

Well, it was originally intended for Nicholas Rubinstein who tore it to shreds on first hearing a play-through by the composer. So, the dedication was switched to Hans von Bulow, who loved the piece and gave the world premiere in Boston in 1875. Americans liked it, but the Moscow premiere a month later wasn't so successful.

Unplayable, I don't think, was the general consensus. Just Rubinstein's.

But it's harder than heck and not the first concerto to tackle, certainly.

I agree with Bruce, start off with the Haydn or Beethoven No.1 concerto, those would be more ideal for you.

Besides that you should learn a couple of sonatas by Mozart,Haydn and Beethoven, and not to forget it is extremely important to learn Bach.

If you learn a dozen or two easier works on the way to learning one of the most difficult works, it may take less time to learn the difficult work than it would have taken if you started out with it, and you would have a dozen or two more pieces in your repertoire, as well.

You need to play big works to play the Tchaikovsky. It is a long piece that requires a lot of stamina. Put together a program of sonatas or big sets of variations to prepare yourself.

Colin, what I'd suggest is that you forget
about music minus one for now,
and about doing the whole
Tchaikowsky Concerto No. 1, and instead
just look at the 3rd movement of it,
allegro con fuoco. This movement is
very easy to read. There are no tricky
rhythms or notation, all the notes are
right out there and easy to pick out.
Any intermedate player should be able
to read this with no problem. Use the
4-hands score and play the 2nd piano part
where necessary to create a piano solo.

Of course playing it at full throttle and
with pizazz would be something else again,
but I think that even struggling with it
at less than full tempo would be beneficial.
It could be a great morale builder: it
would show you that you can read and
"play" a big-time concerto, and that
advanced pieces are not something to
be afraid of. And your overall playing
should improve just by virtue of working
with material above your level.

Rach 2 is in some ways more difficult than Tchaik 1. While the Tchaik requires the most of a pianists' octave technique (hands together scales, arpeggios, and broad leaps, all at very fast tempi), Rach 2 only has one small octave scale in the 3rd movement, m. 168-169. However, certain passages in Rach 2 require beastly technique. In third mvt measures 43-97 (the first 11 of those measures Emmanuel Axe considers to be THE MOST DIFFICULT passage in ALL the concerto repertoire), and most of all measures 162-166 (this passage is among the nastiest in the repertoire, bar none).
In Rach 2 First mvnt the "Un poco pie mosso" section at measure 63... That page took me FIVE DAYS to learn. It is incredibly difficult. In second movement the piu animato and piu mosso sections are also really tough.

Rach 2 is easily as difficult as Tchaik 1.
The bottom line is that neither of these are anything CLOSE to "starter" concerti. I realize how painful it is to be in love with a work that is beyond your grasp.
Try an "easier" concerto first. One you might find appealing is Beethoven 3.

Working on the piano part alone is what I, and ever other pianist I know, does. Your teacher (or a friend/colleague) can fill in as the Colin Thomson Philharmonic on a second piano.

p.s. @ Mr. Kitty: Rach 2 measures 63 -70 . . . I NEVER feel secure there!

lol it's hard I know. It took a long time to master that section. Curve the fingers and really feel the energy of the fingertip at the key surface.

Colin
Any updates on your situation?
By the way-don't even bother with Music Minus One-it's overpriced, and the quality of the product is low. Much better to get an accompanist

I must agree I agree with BruceD, sorry Colin!
It seems a bit extreme to go for this concerto, and to tell the truth, I would keep off any concerto until you have a bigger repetoire! By bigger I mean it to include considerably difficult shorter pieces, a variety of them indeed, and then set your sights no this concerto, if you did that I'm sure you'd be allright to 'skip' a few easier concertos. It's just that you need a LOT of good technique, and your current repetoire has no way given you that.
I'm sure you've even thought to yourself about an opinion such as mine, and have decided to go for the concerto anyway, but I seriously think it will slow down your progress - despite what you say about having endurance - and that the best thing to do is to gain plenty of technique by tackling difficult and shorter pieces, maybe some more Rachmaninoff preludes?? Beethoven sonatas, Chopin etudes, basically anything, and just make sure you practise everything properly, and in the end (after time!) you'll be able to tackle the concerto and be more successful in playing it, and the actual learning process of the piece will last much less time!!

Sorry but I don't mean to be discouraging!!

Just so everyone knows, I certainly want your opinions, so don't be afraid to give them. I was wondering if the Tchaikovsky 1 is not as hard as it seems. But it appears it is, and don't worry, I have tons more pieces I will be happy to work on instead. I think I will stay away from the concertos for now, and focus on the Beethoven Sonatas (Pathetique next, maybe), Rachmaninoff Prelude in G minor, if that is possible for me now, hopefully sometime the Chopin Ballade 1, maybe 4, and plenty other pieces that I love (List Hungarian Rhapsody 2 and 6 ).

Thanks so much for all the advice.


Colin Thomson

OOOOOOh, now I am really upset. Just so everyone knows, I DO know how to spell LISZT.


Colin Thomson