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#567459 - 09/27/07 07:56 PM Music and death
Cultor Offline
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Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 342
Loc: BsAs
Thomas Mann in Der Zauberberg relates the beautiful Schubert lied Der Lindenbaum (Winterraise) with an inner and ineffable wish of death.
Can loneliness, melancholy, sadness and finally death be portrayed in music?
How? Why?

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#567460 - 09/27/07 08:12 PM Re: Music and death
Mr. Widmore Offline
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Registered: 03/10/06
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Every single feeling can be portrayed in music.
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And in my twisted face... there's not the slightest trace of anything that even hints at kindness...

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#567461 - 09/27/07 08:20 PM Re: Music and death
Cultor Offline
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Registered: 02/25/07
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Loc: BsAs
How? Why?

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#567462 - 09/27/07 08:29 PM Re: Music and death
Minaku Offline
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Might as well ask why rainbows make people smile or nails on a chalkboard make people flinch.
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#567463 - 09/27/07 08:37 PM Re: Music and death
signa Offline
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Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8452
Loc: Ohio, USA
isn't it already done in music?

for melancholy or loneliness, Beethoven's op.10.3 slow movement is known for that.

death, of course, with all those funeral marches, such as in Chopin sonata 2 and Beethoven op.26 and his symphony 3 & 7 2nd movement, etc...

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#567464 - 09/27/07 08:42 PM Re: Music and death
andrewp Offline
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Registered: 09/30/04
Posts: 494
Loc: united kingdom
Schubert composes beautifully on the subject of death. Also Janacek: his 'Overgrown Path'. The last pieces have to do with the death of his daughter and are very poignant. There is the one about the owl which is particularly - there is some sort of folkloric connection with death there in Bohemian culture.

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#567465 - 09/27/07 08:43 PM Re: Music and death
andrewp Offline
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Schubert composes beautifully on the subject of death. Also Janacek: his 'Overgrown Path'. The last pieces have to do with the death of his daughter and are very poignant. There is the one about the owl which is particularly - there is some sort of folkloric connection with death there in Bohemian culture.

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#567466 - 09/27/07 08:45 PM Re: Music and death
pianojerome Offline
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9849
Ah, Der Lindenbaum. Great song! I wrote an essay about it last year.

Here's an excerpt: part of what I wrote about is the way he expressed not only emotion (wandering, loneliness, confidence and serenity) but also physical objects (such as wind, an icy storm).

 Quote:
Working within the structural framework of the poem, the music portrays several main subjects in the piano part through a characteristic use of rhythm, harmony, and dynamic. Most prominent of these textual subjects is that of the wind, musically expressed by successive triplet figures (mm. 1, 31) that rise and fall from beat to beat in mostly step-wise motion, and by accompanying pinpoint crescendos and descrescendos (m. 3), such elements being used in every piano interlude, prelude, and postlude. The wind subject is almost entirely absent from the setting of stanzas 1 and 2 (mm. 8-24), which do not involve strong winds (only reminisce on happy summer days); it is present in stanzas 3 and 4 (mm. 28-44) (in the minor mode in stanza 3 and major mode in stanza 4) on the first beat of each measure (m. 29) and, in certain measures, on every beat (m. 31), to suggest the slight wind encountered while wandering near that “rustling” tree; it is constant and almost entirely unbroken in stanza 5 (mm. 45-53) in the minor mode to suggest the constancy of the fierce wind during a storm; and again present only on the first beat of every measure in stanza 6 and its repetition (mm. 59-76), though in contrast to stanza 3, it is this time in the major mode, and there are no interceding measures with triplet figures on every beat. Here, the pattern is unbroken in its lilting consistency, suggesting a relative calmness and serenity as the wanderer finds himself far away from the linden tree and windy storm.


Another general textual subject portrayed in the music is the narrator’s listless wandering at the dead of night described in stanzas 3-4. Almost every measure is ended with an eighth-note rest in both hands of the piano part (mm. 29, 30) and the harmonies hardly change from measure to measure (and indeed many of these measures are exactly the same – compare mm. 29, 30, 32, 33, etc), creating an emotional atmosphere of uncertainty (rest at the end of every measure) and aimless wandering (little harmonic change). By contrast, however, the narrator feels much more comfortable and guided during the sixth stanza, and there the rest at the end of each measure is filled in with an eighth-note in the bass (mm. 59, 60, etc), and the mode has then switched to the major.


The frigid cold, unceasing confusion, and storming winds are musically expressed in the setting of stanza 5 (mm. 45-58) not only through the constancy of “wind” triplet-figures, virtually unbroken by rests, as mentioned above, but also through the use of the minor mode; the lack of any cadences (only frequent deceptive cadences) as the harmonies alternate between V (mm. 46, 48) and VI (mm. 47, 49); the use of an entirely new vocal strophe; the vast dynamic range, punctuated by sforzandos and piano markings guided by steep decrescendos; frequent chromaticism in every measure, particularly in the scalar chromatic rise and fall of the triplet figures in mm. 53-54; the bare, “frigid” octaves in the right hand of the piano part in mm. 46 and 48; the drone of the submediant C-natural in the bass of mm. 49-52 and the dominant B-natural in mm. 53-58; and the oscillating harmonic and melodic constancy in the treble of the piano part in mm. 49 (oscillating G-natural to E (beats 1 and 3) and F# to D# (beats 2 and 4)), 50, 51, and 52.


The repetition of stanza 6 (mm. 66-76) marks an important arrival in both the music and the text: because this is the only place where a poetic stanza is repeated (in the music); and even more so because one of the lines that is repeated (twice! mm. 72-74 and 74-76) is a slight alteration of a line from earlier in the text. The imagined beckoning of the linden tree, “come and find your rest here” (an invitation) in stanza 4, becomes “you would have found your rest there” (a regret) in stanza 6 and its repetition. This dramatic transformation, as shown above in the poetic text, is seen through a comparison of the musical settings of these two stanza-groupings, 3 and 4 (mm. 37-44) and 6 and its reptition (mm. 58-76). As mentioned earlier, almost every measure in the setting of stanzas 3 and 4 ends with a rest in both hands of the piano part – that rest is filled in every measure of stanza 6 (and its repetition) by an eighth note in the bass. Almost every measure in stanzas 3 and 4 has an accent on the second beat (accenting the weak beat, creating a syncopation of the natural rhythmic flow, suggesting uncertainty and unrest) – that accent has moved in every measure of stanza 6 to the first beat (accenting the strong beat, reinforcing the natural rhythmic flow, suggesting an arrival at relative calmness and decision). Stanza 3 is in E Minor (although stanza 4 is in E Major), but both stanza 6 and its repetition are in E Major. The single-note melodic line in the right hand of the piano part is emphasized in octaves during the repetition of stanza 6 (m. 67) and the broken figure of the left hand is there played as solid chords (m. 68). While there are no unique punctuating figures in the musical setting of stanza 3 (denying rest to the listless wanderer), both of these punctuations from stanzas 1 and 2 (the eighth note thirds and dotted figures) return in the repetition of stanza 6 (compare mm. 12 and 69, 20 and 70). Interestingly enough, the change in the textual line seems to suggest that the narrator should feel pangs of regret for not having stopped and rested by the tree. On the other hand, the change in the music seems to portray an arrival at calmness and serenity, a reinforced confidence at having survived the icy storm. This is a dramatic dialectic so characteristic of the romantic (and classical) ideal: the narrator is shown to feel great relief and confidence, and at the same time grief and remorse – both sets of contrasting emotions – for having pushed on his own, not stopping to rest by his beloved Lindenbaum.
That last line is so crucial:

 Quote:
This is a dramatic dialectic so characteristic of the romantic (and classical) ideal: the narrator is shown to feel great relief and confidence, and at the same time grief and remorse – both sets of contrasting emotions – for having pushed on his own, not stopping to rest by his beloved Lindenbaum.[/b]
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#567467 - 09/27/07 09:09 PM Re: Music and death
Cultor Offline
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Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 342
Loc: BsAs
Dear pianojerome:
Although I don’t want this topic to concentrate in Schubert work (it was just an example), your analysis is excellent. Would you say Schubert was using “Word Painting” in this lied?

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#567468 - 09/27/07 09:20 PM Re: Music and death
8ude Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 2045
It may well be impossible to say "how" a given piece portrays death - its is a communication between the meaning that the composer tried to impart in their piece and the meaning that the listener extracts from it. The experiences of both (composer/listener) will affect how that meaning is interpreted. In some cases a listener may feel the meaning as imparted by the composer - in other cases not. Its a subjective thing and may be impossible to give an objective answer. You may as well try to explain "red" to a blind person...

Anyway, some other examples are Strauss' Tod und Verklarung and Sibelius' The Swan of Tuonela. The last movement of Tchaikovsky's 6th symphony is thought to signify death (though whether or not it was intentional by the composer is debatable). And while I don't think he intended it to portray death, I always thought Holst's Neptune seemed to fit the bill...
_________________________
What you are is an accident of birth. What I am, I am through my own efforts. There have been a thousand princes and there will be a thousand more. There is one Beethoven.

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#567469 - 09/27/07 09:24 PM Re: Music and death
pianojerome Offline
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9849
 Quote:
Would you say Schubert was using “Word Painting” in this lied?
Absolutely. It is, of course, much easier to portray such emotions through songs rather than through purely instrumental music.

Also, the question of expression gets a little tricky in songs like this: without the words (or, for many people, without understanding what the words mean), would we be able to feel these emotions through the music alone? Or do the words tell us what to feel, and then we thereafter derive greater pleasure from the music?

Many people feel very strong emotions while listening to Chopin's solo piano music -- but can we describe exactly what those feelings are? Furthermore, having identified them, can we be at all certain that they are the same emotions Chopin was trying to express? Lyrics are a very safe guide.
_________________________
Sam

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#567470 - 09/27/07 09:36 PM Re: Music and death
Orlando Gibbons Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 848
Loc: CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Minaku:
Might as well ask why rainbows make people smile or nails on a chalkboard make people flinch. [/b]
of course.

the how and the why are unsayable. Remember Mahler: "if a composer could express his feeling in words there would be no need for music."
_________________________
"See?! The Cliffs of Insanity!"

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#567471 - 09/27/07 09:42 PM Re: Music and death
Aviator1010110 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 134
Loc: United States
Liszt's Der Erl König comes to mind. Properly played, it can bring tears to my eyes.

That's right, nobody really knows why. That Mahler quote is one of my favorites.
_________________________
Technical skills should never come before artistry. I think of technical ability as a necessary tool for extracting a truly moving performance from a sensitive interpretation. -Aviator1010110

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#567472 - 09/28/07 01:44 AM Re: Music and death
Cultor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 342
Loc: BsAs
Do you hear the soft feathers of the death angel touching here? Two versions to compare.

Liebestod. Jessy Norman-Karajan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REeTSwrlHBQ

Liebestod. Birgit Nilsson. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mOA8pZ_I4M&mode=related&search=

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#567473 - 09/28/07 05:26 AM Re: Music and death
argerichfan Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 7473
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cultor:
Do you hear the soft feathers of the death angel touching here? Two versions to compare.
Ah, Cultor, thanks for your post!

Comparison? No contest. The Nilsson video has been in my YouTube favourites for some time, though I had not seen the Norman video until now. But Nilsson is supreme here. She is magnificent to watch, and an utterly profound interpreter of this cathartic music.

I admire Jessye very much (her Strauss Four Last Songs are my preferred version), but she doesn't seem her best in the Wagner. It is not always apparent that she really understands the import of what she is singing. And of course Karajan -who has no place in my CD collection whatsoever- always has to grab center stage. What a disgusting megalomaniac. I can't watch that video for that reason, nor anything else with Karajan.

On a personal note, my mother took me to a performance of Tristan at Covent Garden when I was about 15. (I looked smashing in the tux she insisted I wear.) Don't recall too many details, but it was a very life changing experience. It took days for me to recover. Heretofore, church music had always excited me... but now here was something else!

And now for the great Nilsson -"Music and Death" indeed!- in the final moments of Salome
_________________________
Jason

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#567474 - 09/28/07 10:42 AM Re: Music and death
Ragnhild Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 1117
Loc: Norway
 Quote:
Can loneliness, melancholy, sadness and finally death be portrayed in music?
How? Why?
Yes.

The composer, the performer(s) and[/b] the listener must have experienced the feelings and also must be familiar with certain "codes" in the music genre (as described by pianojerome) used to express them. A title or text is helpful and almost invaluable to connect the three.

Music can portray loss, melancholy, loneliness, death and other reminders of life being transient more than any other art because of the volatility of music itself.
Everyone who has been involved with some kind of chamber music knows this feeling of joy mixed with sadness caused by the fact that this very moment will never come back.

(Pity we did not get a photo of 15 year old smashing looking Jason.....)

Ragnhild
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#567475 - 09/28/07 01:41 PM Re: Music and death
Cultor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 342
Loc: BsAs
Salome: what a trespassing music and gorgeous interpretation. It flows all throughout your body and soul in waves and waves of pain and pleasure.

Ragnhild brought up a couple of interesting observations:

1. The necessity of sympathetic feelings (and life experiences behind) among composer, interpreter and listener.
2. The perishable nature of music that resembles the fragility of life itself.

May be it’s me, but I feel drops of melancholy and sadness even in the most joyful music. A Schubertian mood, I suppose.

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#567476 - 09/28/07 03:44 PM Re: Music and death
BruceD Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 15666
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cultor:
Dear pianojerome:
Although I don’t want this topic to concentrate in Schubert work (it was just an example), your analysis is excellent. Would you say Schubert was using “Word Painting” in this lied? [/b]
If Schubert is indeed doing "word painting" in Die Winterreise, let's also give credit to Wilhelm Müller from whom all the texts for the 24 songs in this cycle were taken.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
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#567477 - 10/01/07 04:07 PM Re: Music and death
rockpeter Offline
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Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 607
Loc: Montreal Canada
On the same note of feeling something with the music. Recently I was wondering something. In the past, about 4 years ago and earlier I only listened to dance music and the light rock channels. Never classical. However now I am always listening to classical on the car radio and at home.
I am beginning to wonder on a physcological or subconcious level if this can alter our behavior and feelings. That is to say, I am going to work listening to classical and I can either be relaxed or a little sad by what I am hearing. But if I was to put on the dance music or something, I would probably feel a little more upbeat. Does anyone else feel this way. I was wondering if this type of listening can have an overall change in the way we feel all day.

Peter
_________________________
Ok..Ok... If you don't want your Steinway give it to me !!!!

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#567478 - 10/06/07 05:58 PM Re: Music and death
1RC Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 439
Loc: Alberta
I'm pretty sure that listening to classical all the time has sort of balanced me, as the masters were careful craftsmen and the music itself is balanced.

When I always listened to metal I was a typical angry teen. Did the music make me that way? I was probably angry to begin with and the music just reflected and complimented.

When I listen to too much Radiohead and Tom Waits I get a little depressed overall.

When I read Shakespeare I notice that I start speaking with more rhythm and color. When I was exploring psychology the writing style made me a little pedantic.

Back on the note of listening to music, I think practicing has given me a more attentive ear all around. Little noises that people might make get under my skin, like a slight lip smack when talking or heavy breathing.

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