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#574612 - 03/16/08 07:18 AM Faced a tiger lately?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Here is the Andante con moto in E minor from
Beethoven’s 4th PC Opus 58 ... only two pages.

web page

web page

Can anybody make head or tail of the stramash?
Written for 2 pianos ... Page 2 is a Lulu.

This has to be one of the most complex of sight-reading juggernauts ... and yet the dialogue between piano and orchestra is as sublime as anything conceived ... well worth a visit.

Just a reminder not to be put off by the look of the notation ... let your ear carry the day.

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#574613 - 03/16/08 07:32 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
I'm not bragging because sight reading is my weakest area, but those are two of the easiest Beethoven pages to sightread. Straight forward rhythm, octaves in unison, chromatic scales, fairly basic harmony, not a fast tempo, etc.

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#574614 - 03/16/08 08:12 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
But can you play the two pages including the orchestral voice?

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#574615 - 03/16/08 08:15 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
 Quote:
Originally posted by Phlebas:
I'm not bragging because sight reading is my weakest area, but those are two of the easiest Beethoven pages to sightread. Straight forward rhythm, octaves in unison, chromatic scales, fairly basic harmony, not a fast tempo, etc. [/b]
Yeah, I honestly can't see what's so difficult about these pages.
_________________________
Practice makes permanent - Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#574616 - 03/16/08 08:47 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
Minaku Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 1226
Loc: Atlanta
This doesn't seem bad, especially as it's marked Andante con moto. You'd definitely have the time to read the notes and find your place on the piano.
_________________________
Pianist and teacher with a 5'8" Baldwin R and Clavi CLP-230 at home.

New website up: http://www.studioplumpiano.com. Also on Twitter @QQitsMina

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#574617 - 03/16/08 01:03 PM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
So far we haven't found anybody who can "ride the tiger" ... meaning that they can play the gem at the Andante con moto tempo ... including the subtle indication near the end of a slowing down from a pp group of 13/33nd notes to 12/16th notes to 8/8th notes.

Taking snapshops of passing tigers doesn't count.

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#574618 - 03/16/08 02:02 PM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
wdot Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 726
Loc: South Carolina, USA
This is not particularly difficult. Frankly, any accomplished accompanist routinely has to read more difficult works at sight. It's not at all fast, notwithstanding the "andante con moto" indication. It's a very slow 2/4. This is a musical masterpiece, but technically it just is not a "tiger."

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#574619 - 03/16/08 02:20 PM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19223
Loc: New York City
It doesn't even take an accomplished pianist to sight read this.

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#574620 - 03/16/08 02:28 PM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
Janus K. Sachs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 1710
Loc: Betelgeuse, baby!
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
So far we haven't found anybody who can "ride the tiger" ... meaning that they can play the gem at the Andante con moto tempo ... including the subtle indication near the end of a slowing down from a pp group of 13/33nd notes to 12/16th notes to 8/8th notes.

Taking snapshops of passing tigers doesn't count. [/b]
Says you. Have you even read the other responses? I'm not that great a sightreader either, but this really isn't too difficult.

I really don't know what you're getting at with all this tiger-talk (though I suppose it's a cute simile to the stripe-like beams). Maybe you're thinking that the tempo is faster than today's norm. Even the faster tempi I've encountered in performances/recordings can still be subdivided into four comfortably flowing eighth-notes per measure.
_________________________
Die Krebs gehn zurcke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.

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#574621 - 03/16/08 02:54 PM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11556
Loc: Canada
btb, since I have joined this board you have posted four or five pieces which were each supposed to be difficult to read. What point are you trying to make? What is it that you are trying to solve, or draw attention to?

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#574622 - 03/16/08 04:30 PM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
btb, since I have joined this board you have posted four or five pieces which were each supposed to be difficult to read. What point are you trying to make? What is it that you are trying to solve, or draw attention to? [/b]
If btb doesn't mind me speaking for him, he maintains that the current system of notation is too cumbersome for piano, and does not facilitate ease of sight reading - a topic that's certainly worthy of discussion.

I think the example he's using here is not a good one. I - not a good sight reader - can accurately sight read the two pages - with expression, tempo changes, orchestra part, piano part, etc.

He should use the orchestra reductions of the outer movements of this piece as examples of awkwardly written music to sight read, IMHO.

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#574623 - 03/16/08 04:53 PM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
btb me old chappie, I don't want to be drawn into another sightreading stoush with you \:\) but if this is so difficult for you, why don't you play it in your special notation you've devised, and leave the rest of us who have no problems with it in its present form to play it from the conventional notation??

Not trying to say we shouldn't discuss such issues, just that I might have to go and take my vitamins if this looks like turning into a mega-thread \:\(
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#574624 - 03/16/08 05:01 PM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11556
Loc: Canada
Is it possible that the real problem lies in whether one reads this music like a digital list of notes, or pictorally as patterns? I can make it difficult to read by trying to do the former. Pictorally there are so many repeating patterns in rhythm and note direction, with left and right tending to mirror each other especially rhythmically that visually it is easy to read and anticipate.

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#574625 - 03/16/08 05:07 PM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
John Citron Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 3925
Loc: Haverhill, Massachusetts
This is definitely not difficult to read. I would say the biggest problem is keeping the dynamics at the right level so the dialogue between the piano and orchestra comes across like it should. The most beautiful section is piano solo part with the trills where the theme is played in the right hand. Just reading this, gives me goose bumps on my neck. \:\)

I too smell a long diatribe on "special" notation scheme coming long too. \:\(

John
_________________________
Nothing.

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#574626 - 03/16/08 05:47 PM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
Janus K. Sachs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 1710
Loc: Betelgeuse, baby!
If a diatribe is the impetus behind the original post, someone should just post links to past threads on this matter so that all of us could save much time and energy.

It is terribly clear, by saying that no one could possibly sightread the movement in question, that this thread exists only to make btb feel better about his own painfully poor sightreading. People, we should simply leave btb to his delusions. Such matters are not worth anyone's time.[/b]
_________________________
Die Krebs gehn zurcke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.

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#574627 - 03/17/08 03:03 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Thanks for at least showing a face currawong,
I’ve done just what you suggest and thus the animus.

There are a lot of howdah snapshots on this tiger-hunt ... but nobody who can play the twin piano parts ... makes further intimate discussion on this pregnant intermission between the 1st and 3rd movements of the Beethoven 4th PC rather vacuous.

Encouraging to hear that John experienced goose-bumps ... even if, like you, he needs his medication for fear of a lengthy diatribe.

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#574628 - 03/17/08 03:31 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
mrenaud Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 1308
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
There are a lot of howdah snapshots on this tiger-hunt ... but nobody who can play the twin piano parts ... makes further intimate discussion on this pregnant intermission between the 1st and 3rd movements of the Beethoven 4th PC rather vacuous.[/b]
It is vacuous, but only because you're stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the possibility that these two pages are really very easy to sight-read. But you cannot do it, which makes you mad. But that's not our fault.
_________________________
I have an ice cream. I cannot mail it, for it will melt.

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#574629 - 03/17/08 03:55 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Sorry mrenaud, but the question is loaded.

I am in the fortunate position of being able to play the twin voices on the two pages at tempo...
but still have to work hard on the tricky 3 measures just before the trills ... the twin dialogue in both hands takes some holding down.

If the two pages are so easy to sight-read ... why can't you? It's all eyewash this chat of
being easy to sight-read ... when we all know there is a "preparation" time needed to reach the stage of being able to play off-the-cuff.

BTW Wish they could mail Swiss ice-creams ...
the one I tried at Lake Lucerne was tops ... but then it was mid-summer.

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#574630 - 03/17/08 05:03 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
Matthew Collett Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 536
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Since btb refuses to believe the assurances of Uncle Tom Cobbly and all that he has mistaken a tabby for a tiger, here is my own attempt to show that it miaows instead of roaring:

http://www.box.net/shared/d3hkitoo40

A purist might argue that it is not strictly sight-reading, since, of course, I have heard the work performed. But I had not seen the music before today, and this recording is of my first play through.

Obviously there are things that could be better (the omission of the F# at the very end is particularly glaring \:\( ), but then I do not claim to be anything more than a mere dilettante.

Best wishes,
Matthew
_________________________
"Passions, violent or not, may never be expressed to the point of revulsion; even in the most frightening situation music must never offend the ear but must even then offer enjoyment, i.e. must always remain music." -- W.A.Mozart

212cm Fazioli: some photos and recordings .
Auckland Catholic Music Schola .

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#574631 - 03/17/08 05:59 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Well done Matthew ... wish I could afford a Fazioli ... or was that a computer programme?

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#574632 - 03/17/08 06:43 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
btb, this is said in earnest and without any disrespect: if you think that you have devised a better way of piano notation, my advice would be to patent it (as far as legally possible and financially practicable) and try to find a publisher for the pieces that you will have thus transcripted.

I am a pretty conservative chap and tend myself to believe that what has worked well for centuries and has allowed to create and accurately reproduce heavenly music is probably good enough for me too; but if everyone were made like me there would never be any kind of improvement in anything.. ;\)

Still, if this new notation method is more practical, it will find his followers. If it doesn't, perhaps it is just a preference of yours that does not have a vast audience.

The proof of the pudding is, as they say, in the eating.
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#574633 - 03/17/08 08:40 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13759
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Recap for those just now joining the conversation:

Somebody: "I can read that."

btb: "No you can't."

Somebody else: "I can read that."

btb: "No you can't."

Somebody else: "I can read that."

btb: "No you can't."

Of course, it's all text on a webpage, so it's impossible to say who's right.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#574634 - 03/17/08 08:42 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
But can you play it Kreisler?

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#574635 - 03/17/08 09:51 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
computerpro3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 367
Loc: Connecticut/Cincinnati
So you think nobody can sightread this... I am a horrible sightreader and can do a decent job of sightreading this. Without a doubt, my teacher can sightread this with 100% accuracy on the first try at full tempo.

Why don't you take a trip down to the practice rooms of your local conservatory and see if the kids can play it? Guarantee you they can.

I would say that nearly all of the four voice fugues from the WTC are far more difficult to sightread than this.

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#574636 - 03/17/08 10:14 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
John Citron Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 3925
Loc: Haverhill, Massachusetts
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
Thanks for at least showing a face currawong,
I’ve done just what you suggest and thus the animus.

There are a lot of howdah snapshots on this tiger-hunt ... but nobody who can play the twin piano parts ... makes further intimate discussion on this pregnant intermission between the 1st and 3rd movements of the Beethoven 4th PC rather vacuous.

Encouraging to hear that John experienced goose-bumps ... even if, like you, he needs his medication for fear of a lengthy diatribe. [/b]
Guess again, BTB. In the past I used to play both parts at the same time when I was able to reach them. I've even sight read Bach organ Preludes an Fuges and played the pedal part when I can reach them. This was when I had the technique, which has sadly deteriorated over the past three or four years.

My medication doesn't do anything for nerves. It's not a tranquilizor or anitdepressent. It's dopamine replacement therapy a.k.a. Sinemet, anticholerigenic drugs, and Amantadine, which are used to treat Parkinson's Disease. Without this medication, I would be imobile.

John
_________________________
Nothing.

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#574637 - 03/17/08 10:50 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
I'm well aware of your condition John and admire your fighting tenacity ... I felt sure you must have played the 2nd movement at some time ... those goosebumps were obviously triggered by a fond memory.

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#574638 - 03/17/08 01:22 PM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kreisler:
Recap for those just now joining the conversation:

Somebody: "I can read that."

btb: "No you can't."

Somebody else: "I can read that."

btb: "No you can't."

Somebody else: "I can read that."

btb: "No you can't."

Of course, it's all text on a webpage, so it's impossible to say who's right. [/b]
ten words:

"I can't do it, so therefore nobody else can, either."
_________________________
Sam

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#574639 - 03/17/08 05:40 PM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
Brendan Offline



Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5285
Loc: McAllen, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
But can you play it Kreisler? [/b]
I'm pretty sure he can.
_________________________
http://www.BrendanKinsella.com

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#574640 - 03/18/08 05:20 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Sincere thanks for the responses ... we seem to have attracted the cream of the deck ... but all hell-bent on showing the tiger up as a circus pussy-cat ... and yet few who want to pick up the whip and enter the cage.

We have some lurkers who openly admit to poor sight-reading skills as a boost to underline how easy the full score is to play ... others
who similarly plead a shortfall but use the example of a distant third person to bolster the claim.

But now that we’re dealing with a tame feline ... here’s a copy of the the 12th last measure to test your sight-reading skill ... obviously a
spread of more than one rhythmic measure ... the question is "how many" measures?

web page

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#574641 - 03/18/08 05:55 AM Re: Faced a tiger lately?
Matthew Collett Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 536
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
But now that we’re dealing with a tame feline ... here’s a copy of the the 12th last measure to test your sight-reading skill ... obviously a
spread of more than one rhythmic measure ... the question is "how many" measures? [/b]
A pointless question, since this is a cadenza. If you insist on an answer: "As many as you please."

Matthew
_________________________
"Passions, violent or not, may never be expressed to the point of revulsion; even in the most frightening situation music must never offend the ear but must even then offer enjoyment, i.e. must always remain music." -- W.A.Mozart

212cm Fazioli: some photos and recordings .
Auckland Catholic Music Schola .

Top
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