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btb, this is said in earnest and without any disrespect: if you think that you have devised a better way of piano notation, my advice would be to patent it (as far as legally possible and financially practicable) and try to find a publisher for the pieces that you will have thus transcripted. I am a pretty conservative chap and tend myself to believe that what has worked well for centuries and has allowed to create and accurately reproduce heavenly music is probably good enough for me too; but if everyone were made like me there would never be any kind of improvement in anything.. Still, if this new notation method is more practical, it will find his followers. If it doesn't, perhaps it is just a preference of yours that does not have a vast audience. The proof of the pudding is, as they say, in the eating.
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)
Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin
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Recap for those just now joining the conversation:
Somebody: "I can read that."
btb: "No you can't."
Somebody else: "I can read that."
btb: "No you can't."
Somebody else: "I can read that."
btb: "No you can't."
Of course, it's all text on a webpage, so it's impossible to say who's right.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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But can you play it Kreisler?
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So you think nobody can sightread this... I am a horrible sightreader and can do a decent job of sightreading this. Without a doubt, my teacher can sightread this with 100% accuracy on the first try at full tempo.
Why don't you take a trip down to the practice rooms of your local conservatory and see if the kids can play it? Guarantee you they can.
I would say that nearly all of the four voice fugues from the WTC are far more difficult to sightread than this.
Shigeru Kawai SK7 Kawai NV10S Hallet & Davis 165
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Originally posted by btb: Thanks for at least showing a face currawong, I’ve done just what you suggest and thus the animus.
There are a lot of howdah snapshots on this tiger-hunt ... but nobody who can play the twin piano parts ... makes further intimate discussion on this pregnant intermission between the 1st and 3rd movements of the Beethoven 4th PC rather vacuous.
Encouraging to hear that John experienced goose-bumps ... even if, like you, he needs his medication for fear of a lengthy diatribe. Guess again, BTB. In the past I used to play both parts at the same time when I was able to reach them. I've even sight read Bach organ Preludes an Fuges and played the pedal part when I can reach them. This was when I had the technique, which has sadly deteriorated over the past three or four years. My medication doesn't do anything for nerves. It's not a tranquilizor or anitdepressent. It's dopamine replacement therapy a.k.a. Sinemet, anticholerigenic drugs, and Amantadine, which are used to treat Parkinson's Disease. Without this medication, I would be imobile. John
Current works in progress:
Beethoven Sonata Op. 10 No. 2 in F, Haydn Sonata Hoboken XVI:41, Bach French Suite No. 5 in G BWV 816
Current instruments: Schimmel-Vogel 177T grand, Roland LX-17 digital, and John Lyon unfretted Saxon clavichord.
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I'm well aware of your condition John and admire your fighting tenacity ... I felt sure you must have played the 2nd movement at some time ... those goosebumps were obviously triggered by a fond memory.
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Originally posted by Kreisler: Recap for those just now joining the conversation:
Somebody: "I can read that."
btb: "No you can't."
Somebody else: "I can read that."
btb: "No you can't."
Somebody else: "I can read that."
btb: "No you can't."
Of course, it's all text on a webpage, so it's impossible to say who's right. ten words: "I can't do it, so therefore nobody else can, either."
Sam
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Originally posted by btb: But can you play it Kreisler? I'm pretty sure he can.
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Sincere thanks for the responses ... we seem to have attracted the cream of the deck ... but all heck-bent on showing the tiger up as a circus pussy-cat ... and yet few who want to pick up the whip and enter the cage. We have some lurkers who openly admit to poor sight-reading skills as a boost to underline how easy the full score is to play ... others who similarly plead a shortfall but use the example of a distant third person to bolster the claim. But now that we’re dealing with a tame feline ... here’s a copy of the the 12th last measure to test your sight-reading skill ... obviously a spread of more than one rhythmic measure ... the question is "how many" measures? web page
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Originally posted by btb: But now that we’re dealing with a tame feline ... here’s a copy of the the 12th last measure to test your sight-reading skill ... obviously a spread of more than one rhythmic measure ... the question is "how many" measures? A pointless question, since this is a cadenza. If you insist on an answer: "As many as you please." Matthew
"Passions, violent or not, may never be expressed to the point of revulsion; even in the most frightening situation music must never offend the ear but must even then offer enjoyment, i.e. must always remain music." -- W.A.Mozart 212cm Fazioli: some photos and recordings . Auckland Catholic Music Schola .
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Originally posted by btb: Sincere thanks for the responses ... we seem to have attracted the cream of the deck ... but all heck-bent on showing the tiger up as a circus pussy-cat ... and yet few who want to pick up the whip and enter the cage. Well, maybe it's because that would be pointless, as you made clear when you not-surprisingly accused the person who *did* post a recording of cheating and using a computer program. There's no use arguing to deaf ears. And your cadenza, by the way, is just a few scales. (the upward scales are a little ornamented, but the pattern is extremely clear and simple.) And those scales even repeat themselves exactly. And don't worry about the timing -- since it's all one un-metered measure, they don't have to fit into any strict rhythm or timing.
Sam
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Originally posted by btb:
We have some lurkers who openly admit to poor sight-reading skills as a boost to underline how easy the full score is to play ... Lurkers? I post here regularly. In fact, I have more than twice as many posts as you - on a much broader variety of topics, I might add. I'm hardly a lurker. Same with the others who posted in the thread.
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Must just set a few records straight.
pj says that Matthew was falsely called for cheating by using a computer programme ... far from it ... after listening to the impromptu Kiwi rendition of the Beethoven ... which sounded a bit like my midi computer sound ... I was so taken with his 212cm Fazioli and his current repertoire that I was persuaded to listen in to his excellent rendition of the 2nd movement to Beethoven’s Tempest Sonata 31/2 (on which I was currently working) ... I was positively bowled over by the glorious Fazioli sound ... please pj don’t jump to conclusions.
As far as the 12th last measure is concerned ... now labelled a "cadenza" (for want of a better description) ... but with no precise indication of the duration.
Matthew says "As many as you please" and pj "And don't worry about the timing -- since it's all one un-metered measure, they don't have to fit into any strict rhythm or timing."
Does anybody like these calls? I’m sure Beethoven is aghast.
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Sorry to misread your comment, btb -- often happens online, when all we can write/read is text.
Cadenzas were generally thought of as taking place "during" the fermata after that preceding orchestral chord. Of course they can't be notated that way, but it's why they were often written without meter (especially when they are short like this one, and like many of the vocal cadenzas in arias). They were meant as improvisatory flourishes between two beats of the measure, and the fermata allowed that short time between the two beats to be stretched out as long as necessary to fit in the flourish. In other words, cadenzas were extra goodies, and not part of the total measure count. One might think of them as really long ornaments.
Of course, out of the vocal tradition came an instrumental tradition for much longer cadenzas that actually developed themes from earlier in the concerto, rather than simply playing a few scales to show off (as in the case here, and as was the case in many arias). Instead of always being improvised, they became often written out across several pages of music. When you've got several pages of music, instead of just a few improvisatory scales and arpeggios, then it makes a lot of sense to add barlines, because it would get awfully messy without them, plus it would ruin the idea of the cadenza being based on previous themes, as opposed to simply something flashy.
Sam
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Originally posted by btb: As far as the 12th last measure is concerned ... now labelled a "cadenza" (for want of a better description) ... but with no precise indication of the duration.
Matthew says "As many as you please" and pj "And don't worry about the timing -- since it's all one un-metered measure, they don't have to fit into any strict rhythm or timing."
Does anybody like these calls? I’m sure Beethoven is aghast. Why should Beethoven be "aghast"? He is the one who wrote this as a cadenza, as he frequently does throughout the piano Sonatas; one doesn't need to go to the Concerti to find cadenzas. If Beethoven had wanted this - and similar passages - played in strict time, do you not think that he would have so written it with conventional notation within bar lines?
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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Originally posted by btb: ... others who similarly plead a shortfall but use the example of a distant third person to bolster the claim. If you are referring to me and my comments about my teacher: First of all, I am not a lurker. I have a good amount of posts. Second, I AM a poor sightreader compared to most people at my school. Third, my teacher, or "that distant third person" you are referring to, is a well known concert pianist. Do you really think he could not sightread that without trying? In fact, all of the faculty at most music schools across the country (as well as most of the students) could sightread this without a problem. The bottome line is that no matter what you believe, that peice - while of course challenging to play extremely well musically, is not inredibly challenging to sightread. Period. Sorry if you can't do it, but many can.
Shigeru Kawai SK7 Kawai NV10S Hallet & Davis 165
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Sorry to burst the bubble BruceD, There is not a vague or indefinite note in Beethoven’s writings ... he has to be the most precise and exacting of composers. Every single measure of the 2nd movement is exactly divided by the 2/4 into the duration of a half note (minim) ... it’s just the so-called "cadenza" which doesn’t appear to fit. After the trill Beethoven conveys a slowing of tempo by progressively DOUBLING the duration time of each note-group. 1. a pp group of 13 notes (16th) 2. then a phrase of 12 notes ( 8th) 4. then a phrase of 8 notes (1/4) Adding the opening trill as 1 ... the addition is 1+1+2+4 =8 and so the measure can be divided into 8 measures. web page The cadenza is used in concertos to give the solist the chance to demonstrate nimble-fingered dexterity ... an interlude gallop over the keyboard (perhaps to give the strings a breather) . This measure is not a gallop ... it’s a retardation to bring the music back to it’s original "a tempo"... as such ... not a cadenza.
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I have no idea what you're getting at btb.
Just admit that you lost and stop being a sore loser. People can sight read it and you can't. Sheesh.
It is a cadenza. The way it's printed says it is. Look at Liszt's Liebestraume Nocturne 3. It has two rather long cadenzas which fit into one bar on different pages. How is that possible if it was to follow what you're trying to imply.
nUtChAi
Kawai K-5
"You are the music while the music lasts" - T.S. Eliot (1888 - 1965)
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Originally posted by btb: Sorry to burst the bubble BruceD, [...]The cadenza is used in concertos to give the solist the chance to demonstrate nimble-fingered dexterity ... an interlude gallop over the keyboard (perhaps to give the strings a breather) .
This measure is not a gallop ... it’s a retardation to bring the music back to it’s original "a tempo"... as such ... not a cadenza. btb : While I don't dispute what you say about a cadenza - although I might eschew such words as "interlude gallop over the keyboard" - I think you do need to broaden your understanding of the term "cadenza" to include : "In a broad sense the term 'cadenza' can refer to simple ornaments on the penultimate note of a cadence, or to any accumulation of elaborate embellishments inserted near the end of a section or at fermata points." [ The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians vol. 3, p. 586.]
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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Originally posted by btb: Sorry to burst the bubble BruceD, There is not a vague or indefinite note in Beethoven’s writings ... he has to be the most precise and exacting of composers.
[...] I really can't argue - or discuss - the point when I have no idea what you are saying. What do you mean by "... not a vague or indefinite note in Beethoven's writings...? How does this imprecise statement fit in with the discussion of "cadenza"? Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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