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#577556 - 01/21/09 04:19 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
JustAnotherPianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
More qualified in the insight department than world-class artists?

Do you actually think concert pianists learn the Beethoven Sonatas a few months before they record them? NO. They have had these pieces in their repertoire for YEARS and YEARS before they ever go into the studio. You think an amateur such as yourself can just come along, learn a sonata in a year, go to the museum, think about it a little, think about it some more, give a little of your magnificent 'insight', and come out with a more valid interpretation than Brendel of Kempff?

All you hear when you listen to the great masters is their idiosyncrasies? But when you play a Beethoven Sonata it's more pure, more studied, more faithful to the score, more creative, because it's taken you 18 months to learn the it, and you happen to have visited the museum a couple of times?

Quit while you're ahead.

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#577557 - 01/21/09 04:31 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
cruiser Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 1171
Loc: Cornwall, England
 Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherPianist:

Quit while you're ahead. [/b]
...a very good reason for kbk not to quit, I would have thought \:\)

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#577558 - 01/21/09 04:42 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherPianist:

All you hear when you listen to the great masters is their idiosyncrasies? But when you play a Beethoven Sonata it's more pure, more studied, more faithful to the score, more creative, because it's taken you 18 months to learn the it, and you happen to have visited the museum a couple of times? [/b]
I couldn't have put it better myself, though you left out the years of study for my B Mus.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577559 - 01/21/09 06:58 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
StuartEstell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 90
Loc: Birmingham, UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherPianist:
More qualified in the insight department than world-class artists?

Do you actually think concert pianists learn the Beethoven Sonatas a few months before they record them? NO. They have had these pieces in their repertoire for YEARS and YEARS before they ever go into the studio. You think an amateur such as yourself can just come along, learn a sonata in a year, go to the museum, think about it a little, think about it some more, give a little of your magnificent 'insight', and come out with a more valid interpretation than Brendel of Kempff?
[/b]
I think that to suggest that an amateur isn't capable of having genuinely "magnificent insight" risks over-lionising the famous at the expense of legions of very perceptive and talented non-professional musicians.

If you apply your own analysis to something, you come up with your own understanding of what the composer was getting at. And for me that's most of the fun of what this music-making lark is about \:\) - presenting my understanding of the composer's intention. To me, my own interpretation of a piece is the single most valid one there is - not because I'm arrogant (I hope) but because it's a conclusion I've reached myself. It means something on a personal level.
_________________________
Yamaha U3 | Currently working on:
Various Haydn Sonatas/Caténaires by Elliott Carter/Lots of Feldman

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#577560 - 01/21/09 08:52 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
JustAnotherPianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
StuartEstell,

I am not saying an amateur isn't capable of having a fabulous interpretation of a given work. All I am saying, after briefly visiting KBK's youtube channel, is that he is simply not one of those exceptional amateurs, despite what he seems to think.

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#577561 - 01/21/09 09:02 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Oo.., get her.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577562 - 01/21/09 09:17 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Cherub Rocker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 475
Loc: North Carolina, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
Plus maybe the world's greatest pianists could learn them more quickly and have greater musical insight than you. [/b]
Yes, learn them more quickly but why a greater insight? I'm probably higher qualified or at least equally so in the 'insight' side of music. I could probably do a far better job on historical and theoretical analysis than most, and to get an acceptable interpretation you need that input. What comes through when I listen to a work that I've study is rarely the composer. What I end up hearing is the performer's idiosyncrasies. [/b]
Wow, you're so humble.
_________________________
Schubert: Impromptus Op. 90, Nos. 2 and 4
Chopin: Etudes Op. 25, Nos. 10-12
Scriabin: Sonata No. 2

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#577563 - 01/21/09 09:38 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
JustAnotherPianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7-UVt8Bcc&feature=channel_page

This is KBK's idea of being highly qualified in the 'insight' side of music. It's pretty low-end amateurish playing. To be perfectly frank, I've heard greater musical insight from 8 year old children.

Forgive me for being so unforgiving. It offends me to see someone like this presenting himself on a public forum as being a more qualified, insightful artist than the great masters.

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#577564 - 01/21/09 09:54 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Fleeting Visions Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1501
Loc: Champaign, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Sorry, I was a bit slow on that one. It's obviously the frontier mentality - the Sears, Roebuck approach to learning. [/b]
I'd be interested in the original post. It would make this thread a bit more intelligible.
_________________________
Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon

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#577565 - 01/21/09 10:14 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherPianist:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7-UVt8Bcc&feature=channel_page
[/b]
Sad to see this thread's degenerated to being about me but I'm flattered you stopped to listen! That was a recording of me sight reading a piece requested by a PW member (what have you done for members JustAP?). Looks easy dunnit? Actually the dynamics (wrong in the score) took some working out, though a few days at the Museum wouldn't have hurt!
For those obsessed with me here's the thread that goes with it: http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/2/16578.html#000000

Sorry Fleeting, that was the original post!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577566 - 01/21/09 11:42 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherPianist:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7-UVt8Bcc&feature=channel_page
[/b]
[/b]
If the above truly is kbk playing, then all this discussion is beyond nonsense and shows how meaningless some discussion on the internet can be. I played better at 12 even without going to the British library.

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#577567 - 01/21/09 11:47 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Each to his own.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577568 - 01/21/09 11:57 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
Guys, he's sight reading. Give him a break.

Although, I think that video defeats the whole point in this thread. Aren't you trying to say that you can't learn anything from just watching someone play (let alone sight read)? Or that it's somehow counterproductive and ruins the experience of playing it yourself?
_________________________
Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

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#577569 - 01/21/09 12:00 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Well, thank you js. You'd need to understand the kids problems re: original thread and PMs to get the point of the video.

Actually, the more I listen, the more I now understand what Haydn was doing with the dynamics. Subtle tricky stuff.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577570 - 01/21/09 12:12 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York City
Interesting. kbk first talks about the uselessness of videos in helping anyone and then posts youtube videos under the name "keyboard class" in order to help people.

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#577571 - 01/21/09 12:18 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2642
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
I don't know about kbk, but anytime I watch someone better than me play the piano I learn something. For me, Youtube is one of the best things that ever happened to the amateur pianist.
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#577572 - 01/21/09 12:20 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York City
Not to mention how great it is to be able to listen and watch the greatest pianists for FREE!

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#577573 - 01/21/09 12:24 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
Interesting. kbk first talks about the uselessness of videos in helping anyone and then posts youtube videos under the name "keyboard class" in order to help people. [/b]
Jeez, this is getting complicated. Since being a member of PW I have always posted videos to help posters out with problems. They are meant to be instructional and always have some PMing or posting with them. That's another world away from those who insist on trying to take apart a performance to use as evidence of good practice. Don't study the performance, study the practice.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577574 - 01/21/09 12:25 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
DanLaura Larson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 695
Loc: Pocatello, Idaho
If watching a video of someone playing is bastardizing the learning process, then getting input from an instructor, no matter how qualified, would also be bastardizing it. Ridiculous.
_________________________
Dan and Laura Larson
Fazioli and Ibach grands
Larson Piano Studio
http://www.stoneformsart.com/

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#577575 - 01/21/09 12:29 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Sorry Dan and Laura I'm having trouble getting my head round that one.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577576 - 01/21/09 12:34 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
DanLaura Larson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 695
Loc: Pocatello, Idaho
If you can't learn from watching someone play on a video, how could you learn from an instructor demonstrating a piece to you?
_________________________
Dan and Laura Larson
Fazioli and Ibach grands
Larson Piano Studio
http://www.stoneformsart.com/

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#577577 - 01/21/09 12:47 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Because you can't ask Horowitz why his fifth finger sticks up in bar x of piece x but you can ask an instructor. To take performances as pedagogical models is to take them way out of context. How often do you hear 'Don't do as I do, do as I say'?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577578 - 01/21/09 01:33 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
iconoclast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 389
Loc: Ancramdale, NY
To take performances as pedagogical models is to take them way out of context.

Perhaps - but it's still preferable to having no model at all. Personally I've found Youtube videos to be very helpful - although I can see the danger for folks who don't recognize idiosyncratic technique when they see it.

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#577579 - 01/21/09 02:21 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
[...] Don't study the performance, study the practice. [/b]
Originally, this thread focused on interpretation and the perceived hazard of being unduly influenced by YouTube. We now seem to be talking about the usefulness of video for teaching technique(s).

kbk, does your statement (quoted above) reflect that shift in the conversation—and, coincidentally, the oft-cited difference between a composition's technical difficulty vs. musical difficulty?

Is it your opinion, then, that video is counterproductive for inspiring interpretation but useful for addressing technique?

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#577580 - 01/21/09 02:22 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
DanLaura Larson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 695
Loc: Pocatello, Idaho
KK, you are right about being able to ask the teacher, which you can't with a video. And ya I exaggerated my point a little. But watching and listening to others performances is a valid way to learn. Painters learn a great deal and are strongly influenced by looking at other artists works.
_________________________
Dan and Laura Larson
Fazioli and Ibach grands
Larson Piano Studio
http://www.stoneformsart.com/

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#577581 - 01/21/09 02:24 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Fleeting Visions Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1501
Loc: Champaign, IL
I am personally of the opinion that the recording itself is a wonderful lesson on musicianship- listen to how they use time, balance, phrasing, and SOUND. And that's thinking audio only. A visual context even provides some idea of how they execute. Granted, it should all be taken with a grain of salt, but careful listening can most definitely be an excellent way to learn about a piece.

Truecrypt's recordings are quite a mine!

And I will provide a link to one of my favorite recordings of the Scriabin 4th sonata . Simply because I think the whole world should hear it.
_________________________
Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon

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#577582 - 01/21/09 02:30 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
The thread's about whether using Youtube videos as instructional guides, especially those ones posted of the good and great to illustrate matters of technique (drives me mad when posters do this - anybody could come up with 10 showing the reverse), is at all useful. What is going on inside and outside a performer during a performance is too complex to be used as a model for anything beyond interpretation and that is something so personal. [/b]
Steven, here's one of my early posts. I didn't steer it away to interpretation, it was where people wanted to go.
 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
Is it your opinion, then, that video is counterproductive for inspiring interpretation but useful for addressing technique?
[/b]
So no, it's the other way round unless we're talking instructional videos.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577583 - 01/21/09 02:50 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Thanks for clarifying, kbk. It makes sense now. (I had overlooked, or forgotten about, your earlier post that you quoted.)

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#577584 - 01/21/09 04:14 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Mocheol Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 527
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
Are there or are there not great performers?
Horowitz, for example or Barenboihm

If somebody on this forum is as good then who is he.or she.

I believe its a monstrous conceit to think one cannot learn from the masters.

You tube therefore provides an invaluable opportunity to learn from these greats.
_________________________
vcz

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#577585 - 01/21/09 04:26 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
whippen boy Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 3886
Loc: San Francisco
Several folks have mentioned that one can learn from viewing clips of "great" performers.

One can also learn from the 'not so great' - if nothing else, how not[/b] to do something.

Learning comes in various guises, if we are receptive.
_________________________
Grotrian 225
S&S Hamburg-C
M&H "A" at home

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