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#577586 - 01/21/09 04:33 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mocheol:
Are there or are there not great performers?
Horowitz, for example or Barenboihm
[/b]
Barenboim? His Beethoven puts me to sleep. And folks, lets try not to confuse interpretation with technique.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577587 - 01/21/09 04:49 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Fleeting Visions Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1501
Loc: Champaign, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mocheol:
Are there or are there not great performers?
Horowitz, for example or Barenboihm
[/b]
Barenboim? His Beethoven puts me to sleep. And folks, lets try not to confuse interpretation with technique. [/b]
Now that's an interesting debate- I would argue that control of tone, balance, pacing, and sound ARE technique.

Back to Barenboim, I even dislike his orchestral performances. That is an example of arid interpretation.
_________________________
Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon

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#577588 - 01/21/09 04:52 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Fleeting Visions:
Now that's an interesting debate- I would argue that control of tone, balance, pacing, and sound ARE technique. [/b]
I would say each have their artistic versus practical (contingent) aspects, just to complicate things even further.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577589 - 01/21/09 05:01 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by whippen boy:
Several folks have mentioned that one can learn from viewing clips of "great" performers.

One can also learn from the 'not so great' - if nothing else, how not[/b] to do something.

Learning comes in various guises, if we are receptive. [/b]
I like YouTube. In addition to the wealth of great professional performances, there are a surprising number by talented amateurs as well.

Unfortunately, that's not always the case—as I realized anew when I checked out some videos of Schumann's Prophet Bird before I responded to a current thread about it.

Be warned—the following is so thoroughly toxic that I didn't wish even to mention it in the discussion about the piece. It is disconcerting that some people's self-awareness and apparent estimation of their skills are so jarringly out-of-sync with reality. What would possess someone to upload something this irredeemably, horrifyingly bad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXYe5nlDAA8

It makes me wonder how many even worse YouTube recordings there are out there. It would make an interesting thread to compile the worst of the worst … but it's probably a good thing that such overt Schadenfreude is frowned upon, after all.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#577590 - 01/21/09 05:02 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York City
Based on your youtube performances kk, I don't see how you can have nerve to even post in this thread. Clearly you need to practice.

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#577591 - 01/21/09 05:10 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
JustAnotherPianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
Okay now I'm starting to feel bad for kk. He's a school teacher and an amateur musician. School teachers are the unsung heroes of society, IMHO. They take enough of a beating from the kids they face all day long.
He clearly cares about music, and does his best to contribute to the PW community.

I just didn't like the insight comment....

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#577592 - 01/21/09 05:33 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
portmanteau Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/24/08
Posts: 76
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mocheol:

I believe its a monstrous conceit to think one cannot learn from the masters.

[/b]
Well put

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#577593 - 01/21/09 05:44 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
GreenRain Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 888
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
Am i the only one who find it very ironic that kk has actually an youtube profile, on which he posted trill excersice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx6hCtGaO3U


Ps: I guess this is better than Barenboim:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7Z0nNSBT_g&feature=channel_page

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#577594 - 01/21/09 06:02 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherPianist:
Okay now I'm starting to feel bad for kk. He's a school teacher and an amateur musician. School teachers are the unsung heroes of society, IMHO. They take enough of a beating from the kids they face all day long.
He clearly cares about music, and does his best to contribute to the PW community.

I just didn't like the insight comment.... [/b]
+1.

Hubris is annoying, and I've been aggravated more than once by kbk's terse and frequently cryptic posting style, but some of the comments here are both unwarranted and mean-spirited IMHO.

kbk knows far more about human anatomy and the physiology of our playing mechanism than most people here, and I'm grateful for his willingness to share that knowledge.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#577595 - 01/21/09 06:55 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5962
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by devnull:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mocheol:

I believe its a monstrous conceit to think one cannot learn from the masters.

[/b]
Well put [/b]
Maybe so, but I don't think kbk was saying this. If you actually read his posts (I know, they can be a little cryptic \:\) ) he was warning against trying to make definitive statements about points of technique purely from watching youtube videos (of whoever), unless they are specifically designed to demonstrate such points.

I'm pretty sure his hide is tough enough to take some of the criticism that's been handed out (he's a school teacher after all \:\) ) but I for one don't think it's justified.
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Du holde Kunst...

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#577596 - 01/21/09 07:46 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianovirus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 956
Loc: Basel, Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by GreenRain:
kk has actually an youtube profile, on which he posted trill excersice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx6hCtGaO3U
[/b]
It's based on the beautiful little Humming Song from Schumann's Album for the Young. This melody always brings up childhood memories for me.
_________________________
youtube.com/user/pianovirus

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#577597 - 01/21/09 09:20 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Fleeting Visions Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1501
Loc: Champaign, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
 Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherPianist:
Okay now I'm starting to feel bad for kk. He's a school teacher and an amateur musician. School teachers are the unsung heroes of society, IMHO. They take enough of a beating from the kids they face all day long.
He clearly cares about music, and does his best to contribute to the PW community.

I just didn't like the insight comment.... [/b]
+1.

Hubris is annoying, and I've been aggravated more than once by kbk's terse and frequently cryptic posting style, but some of the comments here are both unwarranted and mean-spirited IMHO.

kbk knows far more about human anatomy and the physiology of our playing mechanism than most people here, and I'm grateful for his willingness to share that knowledge.

Steven [/b]
x3. He's been a bit annoying, but back off the personal attacks.
_________________________
Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon

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#577598 - 01/22/09 01:32 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Well, hey, thanks folks for the +'s, I think the blanket personal comments illustrate my point. To read a video you need to know what you're watching for. If you don't know about technique you're left with nothing but nonsense to say. All the videos quoted were posted to illustrate points of technique for specific posters. I'll be very surprised if some of the negative commentators actually understood the content. Thanks currawong, I think you summed up the thread precisely. As for being a bit annoying - yes, great fun isn't it!

PS actually there only seems to be one voice who wants me banned for alleged incompetence. Would that be a first for PW?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577599 - 01/22/09 02:05 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by GreenRain:

Ps: I guess this is better than Barenboim:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7Z0nNSBT_g&feature=channel_page [/b]
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. The point of technique illustrated, again for a particular poster, is what you should be doing in between the notes, which is not doing - something I pride myself on.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577600 - 01/22/09 03:43 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by GreenRain:
Ps: I guess this is better than Barenboim:
I'll be more blunt than others. Your comment to kbk here is way below the belt. My understanding is that has shared videos with the intent of helping other people.

The fact that he does not like the playing of Barenboim, for whatever reasons, is his right. If you do or do not believe that watching You Tube videos is helpful, make your points. Don't use underhanded attacks.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#577601 - 01/22/09 05:38 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by GreenRain:
Ps: I guess this is better than Barenboim:
I'll be more blunt than others. Your comment to kbk here is way below the belt. My understanding is that has shared videos with the intent of helping other people.

The fact that he does not like the playing of Barenboim, for whatever reasons, is his right. If you do or do not believe that watching You Tube videos is helpful, make your points. Don't use underhanded attacks. [/b]
+1

I agree. It was a silly post, and the personal nature was completely uncalled for.

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#577602 - 01/22/09 08:01 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
[The fact that he does not like the playing of Barenboim, for whatever reasons, is his right. If you do or do not believe that watching You Tube videos is helpful, make your points. Don't use underhanded attacks. [/b]
kbk said far more than just not liking Barenboim. He said there was nothing to learn from the youtube videos of the great pianists(not just Barenboim) either technically or interpretively for him or anyone else. That his interpretation was superior to the great pianists. That pianists who think they can learn musical or technical things from watching these videos are wrong.

For someone, *even a world class pianist*, to state his interpretations and insight are superior to everyone else's seems beyond reason. In terms of technique, I think there are many good ways to play the piano(perhaps with a few basic ideas in common), so someone who thinks the only correct technical approach is their way is narrow minded. Nor is there one best way to teach or learn how to play.

If you look at his Haydn performance on youtube(sightread or not)does this look like a pianist who has nothing to learn from the greatest pianists? I was in a state of shock as I watched it thinking that this could be the same person making the posts in this thread. I originally thought the posted youtube video must be a joke.

Personally, I think I learn something musically and technically every time I watch a youtube performance of a great pianist.

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#577603 - 01/22/09 08:49 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Wood-demon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 607
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mocheol:

I believe its a monstrous conceit to think one cannot learn from the masters.

[/b]
Absolutely, but you can also be misled by them.
Anybody trying to copy the finger techniques of Iturbi (Amparo or Jose) or Landowska might well finish up in the Accident and Emergency department of their local hospital. It would be unwise, too, to sit as high on the stool as Cherkassky or as low as Kentner.
As for interpretation, a comparison of any half-dozen recordings of Schumann's Carnaval, for example, will probably reveal some very idiosyncratic ideas about the way the piece should be played.
Personally, when learning a work new to myself I like to avoid hearing the piece played by others until I have made my own decisions on its interpretation....after all, that's what musicians had to do in the days before widely disseminated recordings or You tube clips were available.

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#577604 - 01/22/09 09:16 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11805
Loc: Canada
I've been following this thread silently and haven't contributed because I don't believe I know nearly enough about piano playing or music yet. I still think so but I'll try anyway.

It is not a bad idea to try to understand what someone is trying to say, and listen with new ears if need be. Is there something to be learned, however perfect or imperfect an actual demonstration may be? What is this person trying to say or show? Must everyone beat to the same drummer and sing the same song? Kbk has spent a lot of years studying music as well as physiology, has a degree in music - this is not some amateur experimenter come lately to the piano, which the tone of some the posts imply.

Actually, reading some of the comments would incline me against Youtube as model - with what ear are people listening, for what? The opening argument is in favour of studying the score and understanding it deeply, and then to form your interpretation from that understanding. It happens that this is how I was taught, so whatever I read is the norm for me. I'm trying not to let that prejudice me.

The samples that people have pulled out seem, to my inexperienced ear, to illustrate what Kbk is talking about. I'm going by what I do hear - not how excellent or virtuosic (or not) the playing may be - but what it illustrates. I hear interpretation. I hear phrasing, where the sequence of notes actually seem to be saying something. The individual notes have individual character and fit into these phrases. This is what I am capable of hearing. There are probably a million things that others want to hear which escape me.

The thing is that these are also things that by and large I am not hearing in most Youtube performances. I googled the piece in question and listened to the beginning of about half a dozen performances. A lot were "impressive" in a way that Kbk's perhaps is not. But these particular qualities of phrasing or the speaking of the notes were not there in any of them. And in general when I google piano performances, I often have the impression of something being missing.

This is not a new phenomenon for me. The same thing played out in the violin forums: there was a new sound and attitude, and an old one. Those who still heard with the older ears would be hearing things which the newer ones could not hear, because they were listening for something else. The newer ones would find flaws in the old masters because they were listening toward different kinds of standards, some of them homogenized, and I think maybe more external. I don't know if the same thing is playing out here. My piano ears are still much too undeveloped.

I may be totally out to lunch in terms of what I'm hearing and understanding. I do think, however, that a different attitude might be in order in regards to some of the posts.

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#577605 - 01/22/09 09:44 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
GreenRain's post was singled out, but I thought a couple of others—from the same poster, yet—were worse (though I must say that "Played Better at 12" would be a pretty funny screen name!).

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#577606 - 01/22/09 11:15 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
GreenRain Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 888
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by GreenRain:
Ps: I guess this is better than Barenboim:
I'll be more blunt than others. Your comment to kbk here is way below the belt. My understanding is that has shared videos with the intent of helping other people.

The fact that he does not like the playing of Barenboim, for whatever reasons, is his right. If you do or do not believe that watching You Tube videos is helpful, make your points. Don't use underhanded attacks. [/b]
So is my right to not like his videos lol.

The paradox is that he dont beleive that anyone can learn from youtube, yet he post his video on it.

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#577607 - 01/22/09 11:18 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
GreenRain Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 888
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
GreenRain's post was singled out, but I thought a couple of others—from the same poster, yet—were worse (though I must say that "Played Better at 12" would be a pretty funny screen name!).

Steven [/b]
Lol, that would really be a funny screen name \:D

I also agree with you about my posts.
Some of them are on really low level, but not the one in this thread.

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#577608 - 01/22/09 11:39 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
GreenRain's post was singled out, but I thought a couple of others—from the same poster, yet—were worse (though I must say that "Played Better at 12" would be a pretty funny screen name!).

Steven [/b]
I guess you found kbk's Haydn sight reading performance impressive and typical of a world class pianist.

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#577609 - 01/22/09 11:55 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
I guess you found kbk's Haydn sight reading performance impressive and typical of a world class pianist. [/b]
Haydn is outside my ken, and I don't know what would be typical of a world-class pianist (or of a typical 12-year-old) ... but for a skilled amateur, I did indeed think it was impressive sight-reading. \:\(

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#577610 - 01/22/09 12:18 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
I guess you found kbk's Haydn sight reading performance impressive and typical of a world class pianist. [/b]
Haydn is outside my ken, and I don't know what would be typical of a world-class pianist (or of a typical 12-year-old) ... but for a skilled amateur, I did indeed think it was impressive sight-reading. \:\(

Steven [/b]
Well, you don't have to know Haydn to know it wasn't an impressive sightreading performance because the piece is so elementary, and that there were some technical problems evident. Trying to compare the sight reading performance by kbk of that piece to the sight reading performance of the same piece by an accomplished professional is like comparing your basketball skills to Michael Jordan.

Have a look at the kbk peformance of Chopin Etude Op. 25 #1 for another example of average amateur playing IMHO.

You must have read stories where one great pianist recounts a fantastic performance by some other pianist. If one fantastic pianist can rave(and learn)from another great pianist, I think we all should be able to do the same. Also, *some* great teachers have taught by example or actually playing along with their pupils. That's why there are usually two pianos available at master classes and in conservatory studios.

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#577611 - 01/22/09 12:24 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Can you sightread it better? :p
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#577612 - 01/22/09 12:31 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
Can you sightread it better? :p [/b]
Perhaps. Certainly not worse, and yet I still think I can gain endless musical and technical insight by listening/watching youtube videos of the greats. But the point was that kbk was comparing himself to the world's great pianists (and they can sight read it better).

My ability to sight read it better is not relevant.

When you watch and listen to a Horowitz youtube video do you think you learn anything musically or technically?

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#577613 - 01/22/09 12:36 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
You left yourself wide open. :p

Where did kbk compare himself to the great pianists? I must have missed that.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#577614 - 01/22/09 12:39 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York City
You did miss it.

When he said he had more insight and didn't enjoy virtually any of their interpretations. You need to read the thread from the beginning.

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#577615 - 01/22/09 12:40 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
text Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/06
Posts: 73
Loc: Windsor, United Kingdom
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Sorry, I was a bit slow on that one. It's obviously the frontier mentality - the Sears, Roebuck approach to learning. [/b]
and maybe they can learn something from it - who are you to say they cannot just because you feel it is a method that doesn't suit you.

Frankly from the sarcastic tone of your opening post you deserve every "below the belt" comment that has been levelled.

Just for clarity's sake perhaps you'd like to expand on what you meant by this sentence:

It's obviously the frontier mentality - the Sears, Roebuck approach to learning.

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