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#577616 - 01/22/09 05:14 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Well often yes to some extent. The great and good need to record all 32 of Beethoven's sonatas in a few months to make a living. I can spend years on just one. I even have time to go to the British Museum and study the first editions and manuscripts not to mention everyone else's editions. It's how it works with amateurs. [/b]
pianoloverus, 'Well often yes to some extent' is not quite the same thing as 'I'm better than the great concert pianists'.
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#577617 - 01/22/09 05:26 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
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Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Well often yes to some extent. The great and good need to record all 32 of Beethoven's sonatas in a few months to make a living. I can spend years on just one. I even have time to go to the British Museum and study the first editions and manuscripts not to mention everyone else's editions. It's how it works with amateurs. [/b]
pianoloverus, 'Well often yes to some extent' is not quite the same thing as 'I'm better than the great concert pianists'. [/b]
So you're only "often" better than the great pianists and not always?
And you're only better "to some extent" as opposed to in every possible way?

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#577618 - 01/22/09 05:29 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
Have a look at the kbk peformance of Chopin Etude Op. 25 #1 for another example of average amateur playing IMHO.[/b]
That illustrates playing with totally flat fingers and on an old Rhodes to boot! I'm rather proud of that one.
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#577619 - 01/22/09 05:33 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
So you're only "often" better than the great pianists and not always?
And you're only better "to some extent" as opposed to in every possible way? [/b]
Just the facts ma'am, just the facts.
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#577620 - 01/22/09 08:20 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
I think the title should be "The klutz admiration thread!"
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#577621 - 01/23/09 12:04 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4648
Loc: South Florida
I am not expressing admiration. I'm expressing irritation at selective quotation and the twisting of words.

I disagree with kbk on any number of subjects, and that is not likely to change. I'm sure he disagrees strongly with many of my ideas. It doesn't mean that either of us need or should engage in attempted character assassination.

I've read this thread from beginning to end. Several people have put words in his mouth. I continue to think that this is essentially dishonest.

I'd appreciate it (for what it is worth) if people would make their points and leave it at that.

I have two thoughts about the value of watching You Tube videos.

My first is that students may indeed do more harm to themselves than good.

But I also believe that those of us who have played for decades and (hopefully) either play or have played well CAN learn a great deal from these videos. \:\)
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#577622 - 01/23/09 01:48 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
I was being sarcastic.
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#577623 - 01/23/09 01:50 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
My first is that students may indeed do more harm to themselves than good.

But I also believe that those of us who have played for decades and (hopefully) either play or have played well CAN learn a great deal from these videos. \:\) [/b]
I really do go with Gary's views. The experienced hand sees so much more than the surface.

Upon reflection, I would be the first one to agree I don't practice enough to give much element of polish. The hours of drill would drive me bananas ! But that in no way precludes precious insight into a composer's thought. The music happens up here and in here (points to head and heart) not here (points to ears). Much of this thread has really been about amateur vs pro. As a poster kinda observed earlier the scales are not all tipped one way.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577624 - 01/23/09 01:51 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
My first is that students may indeed do more harm to themselves than good.

But I also believe that those of us who have played for decades and (hopefully) either play or have played well CAN learn a great deal from these videos. \:\) [/b]
I really do go with Gary's views. The experienced hand sees so much more than the surface.

Upon reflection, I would be the first one to agree I don't practice enough to give much element of polish. The hours of drill would drive me bananas ! But that in no way precludes precious insight into a composer's thought. The music happens up here and in here (points to head and heart) not here (points to ears). Much of this thread has really been about amateur vs pro. As a poster or two kinda eluded earlier, the scales are not all tipped one way.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577625 - 01/23/09 02:24 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4648
Loc: South Florida
Perhaps the central problem is that it takes an extremely well-developed concept of playing to keep from being so strongly influenced by great players that we lose our own voice.

In the beginning we don't have one, or it is so primitive and fragile that it is in danger of being destroyed.

Not to listen to other fine players at all is an extreme, and the result is ignorance.

But once we start listening to the "great ones", where do we stop?

I remember being totally hypnotized by Horowitz, Richter and so many other huge talents when I was young. I was in danger of destroying my own ability to play by attempting to imitate them, leading to a total technical lock-up.

However, since a lot of damage was already done just by listening and imitating—I had terrible teaching until almost the age of 21—I suspect I was actually held back more by NOT seeing these people play, because no one was able to convince me not to try to acheive technical mastery through brute strength. I was lucky the only thing I did was to delay technical development rather than to cripple myself. I believe that seeing Horowitz (I had only heard him) would have totally convinced me to change all my ideas about the physical part of playing.

To get back to the player in the video, beginning of this thread, the only thing he does that I would not recommend for the average student is the rather low wrist (at times), simply because when I use that position my hands immediately become at least somewhat stiff. The fingers do not move well at that angle. This does not mean that this position is not right for him, but from his Chopin Opus 10 No. 2 Etude, I suspect that he may be getting far less than optimal results, since in the middle of that the notes become quite uneven.

That could also come from a thousand other things though.

The problem in judging what we see is that for SOME people the same thing that would cripple most other people may actually be the best way for them.

Or they may play incredibly well IN SPITE of what they are doing, and something else might work even better. We never know for sure.
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#577626 - 01/23/09 05:50 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
RogerW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 430
I'll start by admitting that I haven't had time to read the whole thread, only bits here and there. Sorry if this already has been said.

Instead of asking yourself "can I learn interpretation by listening to other performances" you could ask yourself "can I learn interpretation if I never listened to other performances?" The answer to the second question is no. It would be like trying to learn how to pronounce English without ever hearing it spoken. No matter how many written pronounciation guides you read, you could never get the nuances right. And after all, what is right? English is a language that evolves and the conceptions of correct pronounciation varies around the world.

Music is a language in the same way. The notes on the sheet are like letters in the alphabet, they say what sound should be produced, but nothing about the fine nuances of how it should sound. What we call "correct interpretation" is in fact nothing but tradition. A tradition that lives on and evolves when musicians listen to the interpretations of earlier generations, keep what they like and add their own ideas. It is because we grow up listening to this music, we get accustomed to what it should sound like and therefore we are able to reproduce it. Pianists that grow up in a different cultural environment might grow up with a totally different perception of what this music should sound like, LL is a well known example of this. If you never listened to other musicians playing classical music, you'd be so far out and offer such strange interpretations that nobody in the classical world could stand listening to you (think LL*10^6).

I'm sure someone will think "but of course you can tell what is the correct interpretation, because there's a natural way to play it", but this is not true. The only reason someone thinks it's natural that some music should be performed a certain way is that he has heard similar music performed that way so many times.

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#577627 - 01/23/09 06:46 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7422
 Quote:
Originally posted by RogerW:


I'm sure someone will think "but of course you can tell what is the correct interpretation, because there's a natural way to play it", but this is not true. The only reason someone thinks it's natural that some music should be performed a certain way is that he has heard that music performed that way so many times. [/b]
That can't be right, or no one could ever convincingly perform music they hadn't heard someone else perform earlier, which is nonsense. I've been working on several pieces I have never heard anyone else play. And I think I have at at least a small idea of how they should go, just from the notes on the page.

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#577628 - 01/23/09 07:16 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
RogerW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 430
 Quote:
Originally posted by wr:
 Quote:
Originally posted by RogerW:


I'm sure someone will think "but of course you can tell what is the correct interpretation, because there's a natural way to play it", but this is not true. The only reason someone thinks it's natural that some music should be performed a certain way is that he has heard that music performed that way so many times. [/b]
That can't be right, or no one could ever convincingly perform music they hadn't heard someone else perform earlier, which is nonsense. I've been working on several pieces I have never heard anyone else play. And I think I have at at least a small idea of how they should go, just from the notes on the page. [/b]
But you probably have heard a lot of music in the same style, which give you a framework for how to interpret the music. If you take a piece of music written in a style you've never heard before and make an interpretation based only on the written score, you are very likely to end up with an interpretation that is very far from the composer's intention.

Sorry the confusion, I edited my first post to be more clear on this matter.

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#577629 - 01/23/09 07:25 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Wood-demon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 607
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
My first is that students may indeed do more harm to themselves than good.

But I also believe that those of us who have played for decades and (hopefully) either play or have played well CAN learn a great deal from these videos. \:\) [/b]
Upon reflection, I would be the first one to agree I don't practice enough to give much element of polish. The hours of drill would drive me bananas ! But that in no way precludes precious insight into a composer's thought. The music happens up here and in here (points to head and heart) not here (points to ears). Much of this thread has really been about amateur vs pro. As a poster or two kinda eluded earlier, the scales are not all tipped one way. [/b]
I'm surprised by this confession! Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it you who, some while back on this forum, insisted that all music had to be memorised hands separately so that one could start from any place in the score before one could dare to offer a performance to the public?
Hardly possible, I would have thought without hours of banana-driving drill. Don't you think that before possibly frightening, with such demands, the living daylights out of some poor kid reading this forum who was about to perform in public and who was not so well-prepared that you should have owned-up that you don't always follow your own advice?

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#577630 - 01/23/09 07:33 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
dsch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/08
Posts: 325
Loc: florida
It's very distressing to me that a poster can't express a dislike or lack of preference for a particular performer without getting attacked in a deeply personal way.

There should be some Piano World Forum approved way to say that

"this particular performer does not move me as much as others do"

without getting pelted with rotting vegetables. Or worse, as is the case in this thread.

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#577631 - 01/23/09 07:43 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Wood-demon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 607
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by RogerW:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wr:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by RogerW:
[qb]

But you probably have heard a lot of music in the same style, which give you a framework for how to interpret the music. If you take a piece of music written in a style you've never heard before and make an interpretation based only on the written score, you are very likely to end up with an interpretation that is very far from the composer's intention. [/b]
But nobody can be really sure what the composer's intentions were unless he was around within living memory (even then, maybe not).
I was a child when Handel/Sargent and Bach/Karajan were still believed, by some, to be the way to perform the music of these masters; in my teenage years performers like George Malcolm or Raymond Leppard seemed to have been giving the key to intepreting their music. Nowadays the playing of George Malcolm is hardly considered "authentic." Scholars and performers are regularly re-thinking the way in which we perform music from previous eras. And who's to say we've got it right today? Maybe Sir Malcolm knew best after all!

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#577632 - 01/23/09 08:34 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
RogerW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 430
 Quote:
Originally posted by Wood-demon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by RogerW:
But you probably have heard a lot of music in the same style, which give you a framework for how to interpret the music. If you take a piece of music written in a style you've never heard before and make an interpretation based only on the written score, you are very likely to end up with an interpretation that is very far from the composer's intention. [/b]
But nobody can be really sure what the composer's intentions were unless he was around within living memory (even then, maybe not).[/b]
Exactly what I was saying. There is no absolute right or wrong, because we cannot know the composers real intentions. Still, most people have their own perception of what is right or wrong, all based on tradition. What we think is the natural way of performing something is not necessarily how the composer imagined it performed, it is what naturally fits into the current tradition. Without this tradition, the "natural way" of performing something would be completely different.

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#577633 - 01/23/09 12:52 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Wood-demon:
I'm surprised by this confession! Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it you who, some while back on this forum, insisted that all music had to be memorised hands separately so that one could start from any place in the score before one could dare to offer a performance to the public?
[/b]
YES, but I'm not offering a performance to the public! When I did my diploma I could play from memory any point and either hand, apart from some Bach - I read that from the score.
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#577634 - 01/23/09 12:54 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by RogerW:
Instead of asking yourself "can I learn interpretation by listening to other performances" you could ask yourself "can I learn interpretation if I never listened to other performances?" [/b]
Yes, because you learn your interpretation from your teacher and, before anyone comments that that seems a bit narrow, it depends on the teacher!
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#577635 - 01/24/09 11:35 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Mocheol Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 527
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
There is no such thing as "correct" interpretation since any piece of music is capable of individual interpretation.

Interpretation is purely a matter of personal taste.

Obviusly there is such a thing as correct playing,note values,timing etc and perhaps there may be such a thing as 'correct" technique though I doubt it.
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#577636 - 01/24/09 11:56 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mocheol:
There is no such thing as "correct" interpretation [/b]
Yes, but there is an informed one.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577637 - 01/24/09 01:03 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
RogerW is right when he says that you really wouldn't know how to interpret a piece of written music if you had never heard music of that tradition. As an example, I am learning a piece that has "Tempo rubato" indicated at the outset. So you go to a music dictionary and you learn that rubato means "a limited freedom of rhythm and tempo when performing a piece of music where the time extension applied to one note is taken (hence 'robbed) from an adjoining note or notes". OK, so how does one know exactly how much freedom is allowed and exactly where one should rob the time within a passage? Should one hand keep strict time while the other plays around with time? That's where listening to the acclaimed masters of the tradition, the Rubinsteins, the Horowitzes, the Michelangelis, can help the performer interpret "tempo rubato" since the written notation offers no clues.

The same problem exists in jazz. You can play a written transcription of an Oscar Peterson solo but unless you have heard real jazz being played you would not know how to interpret the indication "swing eights". Your performance would not swing and would not sound like jazz. With Youtube one can listen to and watch the greatest performers of any style, borrow from several, and thus arrive at our own interpretation which is true to the tradition but is not an exact copy of any one else's.

Yes, kbk, there is an informed interpretation and you can get "informed" by watching the greats on Youtube.
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#577638 - 01/24/09 01:05 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
You'd be much better off asking your teacher.
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#577639 - 01/24/09 01:19 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
sotto voce Offline
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Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I don't think it should be taken for granted that everyone has, can afford or needs a teacher.

Steven
_________________________

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—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#577640 - 01/24/09 01:25 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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That then is a problem. I meet mine for lunch most weeks. What is embarrassing is that my 'practice' since stopping lessons is so patchy and random I can't play to the appropriate standard for her anymore. But 'needs', yes.
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#577641 - 01/24/09 01:28 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
You'd be much better off asking your teacher. [/b]
There is no better teaching, no better masterclass than watching Horowitz, Rubinstein, Michelangeli, Argerich, Hamelin, Polloni, Richter, Kissin perform on Youtube. And it's all free.
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#577642 - 01/24/09 01:29 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Yes there is, but you gotta pay.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577643 - 01/24/09 01:38 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Yes there is, but you gotta pay. [/b]
That may very well be the case, but your initial assertion that one cannot learn by watching Youtube, is, IMHO, not supported by any evidence.
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#577644 - 01/24/09 01:58 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
JustAnotherPianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Wood-demon:
I'm surprised by this confession! Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it you who, some while back on this forum, insisted that all music had to be memorised hands separately so that one could start from any place in the score before one could dare to offer a performance to the public?
[/b]
YES, but I'm not offering a performance to the public! When I did my diploma I could play from memory any point and either hand, apart from some Bach - I read that from the score. [/b]
kk,
You are certainly right on this one.

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#577645 - 01/24/09 02:07 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
jprof, you need to read the entire thread, there are plenty of interesting opinions. JAP, what that's supposed to mean is anyone's guess.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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