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#577526 - 01/20/09 04:41 AM I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Sorry, I was a bit slow on that one. It's obviously the frontier mentality - the Sears, Roebuck approach to learning.
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#577527 - 01/20/09 04:54 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
nutchai Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
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Loc: Australia, Western Australia
So... what's the point of this thread?
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nUtChAi

Kawai K-5

"You are the music while the music lasts" - T.S. Eliot (1888 - 1965)

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#577528 - 01/20/09 05:33 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Does it have to have a point? What's your point posting?
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#577529 - 01/20/09 06:41 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
LiszThalberg Offline
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kbk, whenever I get a new piece of music, first thing I do is YouTube it, get an idea for how it sounds. Also, aside from the techique videos you're always "raving" about, you can learn a heck of a lot from watching hand position of Argerich, Rubinstein, ect...

YouTube is a blessing for pianists, kbk....

Matt

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#577530 - 01/20/09 07:17 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
theJourney Offline
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Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Matt, was that fill in the blank or do we get multiple choice?

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#577531 - 01/20/09 09:29 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
waldstein11448998 Offline
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Registered: 11/15/08
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Loc: Connecticut
Why even bother playing music when we can just put on a CD? After all, Horowitz can play anything better than I can. Why am I even trying? \:D

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#577532 - 01/20/09 09:32 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
-Frycek Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by waldstein11448998:
Why even bother playing music when we can just put on a CD? After all, Horowitz can play anything better than I can. Why am I even trying? \:D [/b]
Why bother making love? There's recording of that too.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#577533 - 01/20/09 09:56 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
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You can learn a lot even just listening to the youtube recordings by the great pianists. You can learn even more by watching also.

IMHO anyone who doesn't think this way thinks they have nothing to learn.

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#577534 - 01/20/09 10:26 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Hmm, I wouldn't dream of listening to someone else's interpretation before understanding a work myself. The idea of needing to hear a work before you play is not just barmy, but would seem to preclude any sense of excitement. Do you need someone to read the newspaper to you before you have a go?

Instructional videos are different. Presumably the maker will know how to put his/her point across effectively but performances?? Didactically it's pretty unsound.
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#577535 - 01/20/09 10:46 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Hmm, I wouldn't dream of listening to someone else's interpretation before understanding a work myself. [/b]
If you're refering to my post I never said anything about listening to an interpretation before learning a work. I am, however, not against that except *possibly* for the most advanced students. I would guess that even many conservatory students do this.

And, if after you learn a work you listen/watch a very great pianist play and then don't change anything or learn anything new, again I would say you think you have nothing to learn. Hence, your "didactically it's pretty unsound."

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#577536 - 01/20/09 10:47 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
StuartEstell Offline
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Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 90
Loc: Birmingham, UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Hmm, I wouldn't dream of listening to someone else's interpretation before understanding a work myself. The idea of needing to hear a work before you play is not just barmy, but would seem to preclude any sense of excitement. Do you need someone to read the newspaper to you before you have a go?
[/b]
Is this really a thread about YouTube then? Or more about whether listening to others' interpretations of a work either before or while studying it is a valid thing to do?

I'm more than happy to make my own mind up about a piece without the influence of recordings, but I do find it interesting to see what others' thoughts are - especially if I find lots to disagree with. I've been looking at some Chopin Études lately (must change my sig!), have trawled through lots of recordings, and only found one of op.10 no. 1 that I really like - and even that is faster than my preference.

I used to refuse to listen to recordings while working on pieces but I've mellowed a bit in my old age I don't think listening to others' recordings while preparing a work is anything to be frowned upon as long as the player doesn't follow an idol slavishly and comes to his or her own conclusions.
_________________________
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#577537 - 01/20/09 11:13 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Stuart, your approach seems quite sensible though personally, once I've got to know a work inside out I never can find an interpretation I like.

The thread's about whether using Youtube videos as instructional guides, especially those ones posted of the good and great to illustrate matters of technique (drives me mad when posters do this - anybody could come up with 10 showing the reverse), is at all useful. What is going on inside and outside a performer during a performance is too complex to be used as a model for anything beyond interpretation and that is something so personal.
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#577538 - 01/20/09 11:20 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Stuart, your approach seems quite sensible though personally, once I've got to know a work inside out I never can find an interpretation I like. [/b]
None of them could possibly be as good as yours.
:rolleyes:

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#577539 - 01/20/09 11:21 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
And, if after you learn a work you listen/watch a very great pianist play and then don't change anything or learn anything new, again I would say you think you have nothing to learn. Hence, your "didactically it's pretty unsound." [/b]
I agree, once you have your interpretation the study of others' can be quite a resource but it comes after and through your own considerable effort.
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#577540 - 01/20/09 11:26 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Stuart, your approach seems quite sensible though personally, once I've got to know a work inside out I never can find an interpretation I like. [/b]
None of them could possibly be as good as yours.
:rolleyes: [/b]
Well often yes to some extent. The great and good need to record all 32 of Beethoven's sonatas in a few months to make a living. I can spend years on just one. I even have time to go to the British Museum and study the first editions and manuscripts not to mention everyone else's editions. It's how it works with amateurs.
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#577541 - 01/20/09 11:56 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Arghhh Offline
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I agree with kbk. I don't usually find an interpretation that I like either, and I try to wait to listen to recordings until I know what I want to do musically. At that point, the recordings give me an idea of what can be refined.

Recently I have been listening to recordings of pieces I'm working on to see if anyone else has accomplished what I'm trying to do. I was having an awful time getting the opening of "La Fille aux Cheveux de Lin" to sound extremely legato, and after listening to dozens of recordings I only found one person able to achieve what I wanted - and it was Michelangeli! So now I know that I'm not trying to achieve the impossible.

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#577542 - 01/20/09 03:21 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
LiszThalberg Offline
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Sorry if I didn't clearify, listening to the piece gives me an idea of what I'm working for in a piece. I try not to work on musicality or interpritation till after I have the basic note structure and fingerings complete.

kbk, have you looked at the some of the documentaries they have on YouTube?

-Horowitz: The Last Romantic
-Inside the 6th Franz Liszt Piano Competition
-Argerich: Night Talks
-Andre Previn interviews Oscar Peterson
-Imagine becoming a concert pianist

...just to name a few.

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#577543 - 01/20/09 04:26 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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"I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand."
-- Confucius
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#577544 - 01/20/09 05:24 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
epf Offline
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Registered: 11/13/07
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Loc: Central Texas
Maybe I'm strange, but I like listening to others play pieces that I play. Sometimes I find they have found something I missed and so I work it into my interpretation.

Ed
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#577545 - 01/20/09 05:41 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Stuart, your approach seems quite sensible though personally, once I've got to know a work inside out I never can find an interpretation I like. [/b]
None of them could possibly be as good as yours.
:rolleyes: [/b]
Well often yes to some extent. The great and good need to record all 32 of Beethoven's sonatas in a few months to make a living. I can spend years on just one. [/b]
But recording them in a few months is not the same thing as learning them in a few months. Plus maybe the world's greatest pianists could learn them more quickly and have greater musical insight than you.

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#577546 - 01/20/09 06:37 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
newport Offline
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Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 492
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
"I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand."
-- Confucius [/b]
You need to check your source again. That quote is a western invention.

What he did say is:

"I have spent a whole day without eating and a whole night without sleeping in order to think--but I got nothing out of it. Thinking cannot compare with studying."
_________________________
Chopin Op.51
John

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#577547 - 01/20/09 06:41 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
JustAnotherPianist Offline
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Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Stuart, your approach seems quite sensible though personally, once I've got to know a work inside out I never can find an interpretation I like. [/b]
None of them could possibly be as good as yours.
:rolleyes: [/b]
Well often yes to some extent. The great and good need to record all 32 of Beethoven's sonatas in a few months to make a living. I can spend years on just one. [/b]
But recording them in a few months is not the same thing as learning them in a few months. Plus maybe the world's greatest pianists could learn them more quickly and have greater musical insight than you.
Unlikely....kbk went to the British museum... :rolleyes:

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#577548 - 01/20/09 07:53 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
sotto voce Offline
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nm
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—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#577549 - 01/21/09 01:42 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
wr Offline
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Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
And, if after you learn a work you listen/watch a very great pianist play and then don't change anything or learn anything new, again I would say you think you have nothing to learn. Hence, your "didactically it's pretty unsound." [/b]
I agree, once you have your interpretation the study of others' can be quite a resource but it comes after and through your own considerable effort. [/b]
I generally agree that when you are in the middle of working on a piece and still forming your own ideas about it, it is best not to listen other pianists playing it. Especially really great performances, because they often are just too compelling to resist being influenced. And it is good to avoid listening to other performances not only because of the influence, but because it will rob you of the experience of really discovering what you personally make of it, of figuring out for yourself "how it should go". And I think that experience is one of the most important and rewarding you can have if you are serious about music.

But, on the other hand, there's a major flaw in this idea if you try to make it a real hard and fast rule, because it would mean you can't listen to ANYTHING until after you yourself have mastered it, and that just ain't gonna happen. In fact, a recording or performance is often the thing that prompts me to start on a piece in the first place, so I'm sort of "pre-influenced" in those cases. That can't be helped, I guess.

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#577550 - 01/21/09 02:01 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
Plus maybe the world's greatest pianists could learn them more quickly and have greater musical insight than you. [/b]
Yes, learn them more quickly but why a greater insight? I'm probably higher qualified or at least equally so in the 'insight' side of music. I could probably do a far better job on historical and theoretical analysis than most, and to get an acceptable interpretation you need that input. What comes through when I listen to a work that I've study is rarely the composer. What I end up hearing is the performer's idiosyncrasies.
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#577551 - 01/21/09 02:03 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by newport:
You need to check your source again. That quote is a western invention.
[/b]
I doubt it though it's indubitably bastardized. I like you quote, good food for thought.
 Quote:
Originally posted by wr:
But, on the other hand, there's a major flaw in this idea if you try to make it a real hard and fast rule, because it would mean you can't listen to ANYTHING until after you yourself have mastered it, and that just ain't gonna happen. [/b]
To some extent but it's very much a different and less rewarding experience.
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#577552 - 01/21/09 02:04 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
wr Offline
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Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Stuart, your approach seems quite sensible though personally, once I've got to know a work inside out I never can find an interpretation I like.

The thread's about whether using Youtube videos as instructional guides, especially those ones posted of the good and great to illustrate matters of technique (drives me mad when posters do this - anybody could come up with 10 showing the reverse), is at all useful. What is going on inside and outside a performer during a performance is too complex to be used as a model for anything beyond interpretation and that is something so personal. [/b]
Well, we aren't all alike, obviously. Although not exactly what you are talking about, I have often had the experience of watching a YouTube video and had my playing improve in some technical way from it. But for me, it's not very consciously directed - more often it just happens spontaneously, and sometimes it is really a surprise. I think this is because because visually we absorb a lot of information without realizing it, and being interested in playing piano, I'm just naturally attuned to what pianists are doing to achieve their results, and my subconscious mind has learned to sometimes take what I can use. But it's not entirely below consciousness, because I will often realize that one thing or another a pianist is doing has caught my attention, and later find that I'm doing something similar (or trying to, anyway). But basically it is a kind of learning by osmosis, and it really does happen to some extent.

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#577553 - 01/21/09 02:12 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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wr, that sounds a bit on the dodgy side. The mere copying of the external form of an activity rather than a movement from inside is a surface approach akin to reading poetry in a language you don't understand, whether on the unconscious or conscious level.
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#577554 - 01/21/09 02:29 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
wr Offline
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Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
wr, that sounds a bit on the dodgy side. The mere copying of the external form of an activity rather than a movement from inside is a surface approach akin to reading poetry in a language you don't understand, whether on the unconscious or conscious level. [/b]
It's some kind of extrapolation process, I would guess. How do we learn our native language in the first place, except by copying an "external form"? We aren't born with it. At any rate, all I know is that it happens, rather than knowing how it works, and that alone would make me a happy patron of YouTube.

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#577555 - 01/21/09 02:39 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by wr:
How do we learn our native language in the first place, except by copying an "external form"? We aren't born with it. [/b]
You are born with language though. You parse your experience of the world from day one.

The issue of listening to a work before personally engaging (grappling) with it is an interesting one. A composition is for me an intimate communication between myself and the composer. That's the meaning music has for me. I just don't get the idea of an intermediary. As for learning a piece because you like how it sounds, yes we all do it, but we only persever if we find something of our own in it. In education it's called 'ownership of knowledge' - a bit old hat now, but still as relevant.
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#577556 - 01/21/09 04:19 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
JustAnotherPianist Offline
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Registered: 11/20/08
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Loc: United Kingdom
More qualified in the insight department than world-class artists?

Do you actually think concert pianists learn the Beethoven Sonatas a few months before they record them? NO. They have had these pieces in their repertoire for YEARS and YEARS before they ever go into the studio. You think an amateur such as yourself can just come along, learn a sonata in a year, go to the museum, think about it a little, think about it some more, give a little of your magnificent 'insight', and come out with a more valid interpretation than Brendel of Kempff?

All you hear when you listen to the great masters is their idiosyncrasies? But when you play a Beethoven Sonata it's more pure, more studied, more faithful to the score, more creative, because it's taken you 18 months to learn the it, and you happen to have visited the museum a couple of times?

Quit while you're ahead.

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#577557 - 01/21/09 04:31 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
cruiser Offline
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Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 1171
Loc: Cornwall, England
 Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherPianist:

Quit while you're ahead. [/b]
...a very good reason for kbk not to quit, I would have thought \:\)

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#577558 - 01/21/09 04:42 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherPianist:

All you hear when you listen to the great masters is their idiosyncrasies? But when you play a Beethoven Sonata it's more pure, more studied, more faithful to the score, more creative, because it's taken you 18 months to learn the it, and you happen to have visited the museum a couple of times? [/b]
I couldn't have put it better myself, though you left out the years of study for my B Mus.
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#577559 - 01/21/09 06:58 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
StuartEstell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 90
Loc: Birmingham, UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherPianist:
More qualified in the insight department than world-class artists?

Do you actually think concert pianists learn the Beethoven Sonatas a few months before they record them? NO. They have had these pieces in their repertoire for YEARS and YEARS before they ever go into the studio. You think an amateur such as yourself can just come along, learn a sonata in a year, go to the museum, think about it a little, think about it some more, give a little of your magnificent 'insight', and come out with a more valid interpretation than Brendel of Kempff?
[/b]
I think that to suggest that an amateur isn't capable of having genuinely "magnificent insight" risks over-lionising the famous at the expense of legions of very perceptive and talented non-professional musicians.

If you apply your own analysis to something, you come up with your own understanding of what the composer was getting at. And for me that's most of the fun of what this music-making lark is about \:\) - presenting my understanding of the composer's intention. To me, my own interpretation of a piece is the single most valid one there is - not because I'm arrogant (I hope) but because it's a conclusion I've reached myself. It means something on a personal level.
_________________________
Yamaha U3 | Currently working on:
Various Haydn Sonatas/Caténaires by Elliott Carter/Lots of Feldman

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#577560 - 01/21/09 08:52 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
JustAnotherPianist Offline
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Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
StuartEstell,

I am not saying an amateur isn't capable of having a fabulous interpretation of a given work. All I am saying, after briefly visiting KBK's youtube channel, is that he is simply not one of those exceptional amateurs, despite what he seems to think.

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#577561 - 01/21/09 09:02 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Oo.., get her.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#577562 - 01/21/09 09:17 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Cherub Rocker Offline
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Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 464
Loc: North Carolina, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
Plus maybe the world's greatest pianists could learn them more quickly and have greater musical insight than you. [/b]
Yes, learn them more quickly but why a greater insight? I'm probably higher qualified or at least equally so in the 'insight' side of music. I could probably do a far better job on historical and theoretical analysis than most, and to get an acceptable interpretation you need that input. What comes through when I listen to a work that I've study is rarely the composer. What I end up hearing is the performer's idiosyncrasies. [/b]
Wow, you're so humble.
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#577563 - 01/21/09 09:38 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
JustAnotherPianist Offline
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7-UVt8Bcc&feature=channel_page

This is KBK's idea of being highly qualified in the 'insight' side of music. It's pretty low-end amateurish playing. To be perfectly frank, I've heard greater musical insight from 8 year old children.

Forgive me for being so unforgiving. It offends me to see someone like this presenting himself on a public forum as being a more qualified, insightful artist than the great masters.

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#577564 - 01/21/09 09:54 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Fleeting Visions Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Sorry, I was a bit slow on that one. It's obviously the frontier mentality - the Sears, Roebuck approach to learning. [/b]
I'd be interested in the original post. It would make this thread a bit more intelligible.
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#577565 - 01/21/09 10:14 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherPianist:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7-UVt8Bcc&feature=channel_page
[/b]
Sad to see this thread's degenerated to being about me but I'm flattered you stopped to listen! That was a recording of me sight reading a piece requested by a PW member (what have you done for members JustAP?). Looks easy dunnit? Actually the dynamics (wrong in the score) took some working out, though a few days at the Museum wouldn't have hurt!
For those obsessed with me here's the thread that goes with it: http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/2/16578.html#000000

Sorry Fleeting, that was the original post!
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#577566 - 01/21/09 11:42 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherPianist:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7-UVt8Bcc&feature=channel_page
[/b]
[/b]
If the above truly is kbk playing, then all this discussion is beyond nonsense and shows how meaningless some discussion on the internet can be. I played better at 12 even without going to the British library.

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#577567 - 01/21/09 11:47 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Each to his own.
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#577568 - 01/21/09 11:57 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
jscomposer Offline
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Guys, he's sight reading. Give him a break.

Although, I think that video defeats the whole point in this thread. Aren't you trying to say that you can't learn anything from just watching someone play (let alone sight read)? Or that it's somehow counterproductive and ruins the experience of playing it yourself?
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#577569 - 01/21/09 12:00 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Well, thank you js. You'd need to understand the kids problems re: original thread and PMs to get the point of the video.

Actually, the more I listen, the more I now understand what Haydn was doing with the dynamics. Subtle tricky stuff.
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#577570 - 01/21/09 12:12 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
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Interesting. kbk first talks about the uselessness of videos in helping anyone and then posts youtube videos under the name "keyboard class" in order to help people.

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#577571 - 01/21/09 12:18 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
jazzyprof Offline
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I don't know about kbk, but anytime I watch someone better than me play the piano I learn something. For me, Youtube is one of the best things that ever happened to the amateur pianist.
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#577572 - 01/21/09 12:20 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
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Not to mention how great it is to be able to listen and watch the greatest pianists for FREE!

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#577573 - 01/21/09 12:24 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
Interesting. kbk first talks about the uselessness of videos in helping anyone and then posts youtube videos under the name "keyboard class" in order to help people. [/b]
Jeez, this is getting complicated. Since being a member of PW I have always posted videos to help posters out with problems. They are meant to be instructional and always have some PMing or posting with them. That's another world away from those who insist on trying to take apart a performance to use as evidence of good practice. Don't study the performance, study the practice.
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#577574 - 01/21/09 12:25 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
DanLaura Larson Offline
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If watching a video of someone playing is bastardizing the learning process, then getting input from an instructor, no matter how qualified, would also be bastardizing it. Ridiculous.
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#577575 - 01/21/09 12:29 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Sorry Dan and Laura I'm having trouble getting my head round that one.
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#577576 - 01/21/09 12:34 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
DanLaura Larson Offline
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If you can't learn from watching someone play on a video, how could you learn from an instructor demonstrating a piece to you?
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#577577 - 01/21/09 12:47 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Because you can't ask Horowitz why his fifth finger sticks up in bar x of piece x but you can ask an instructor. To take performances as pedagogical models is to take them way out of context. How often do you hear 'Don't do as I do, do as I say'?
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#577578 - 01/21/09 01:33 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
iconoclast Offline
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To take performances as pedagogical models is to take them way out of context.

Perhaps - but it's still preferable to having no model at all. Personally I've found Youtube videos to be very helpful - although I can see the danger for folks who don't recognize idiosyncratic technique when they see it.

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#577579 - 01/21/09 02:21 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
sotto voce Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
[...] Don't study the performance, study the practice. [/b]
Originally, this thread focused on interpretation and the perceived hazard of being unduly influenced by YouTube. We now seem to be talking about the usefulness of video for teaching technique(s).

kbk, does your statement (quoted above) reflect that shift in the conversation—and, coincidentally, the oft-cited difference between a composition's technical difficulty vs. musical difficulty?

Is it your opinion, then, that video is counterproductive for inspiring interpretation but useful for addressing technique?

Steven
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#577580 - 01/21/09 02:22 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
DanLaura Larson Offline
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KK, you are right about being able to ask the teacher, which you can't with a video. And ya I exaggerated my point a little. But watching and listening to others performances is a valid way to learn. Painters learn a great deal and are strongly influenced by looking at other artists works.
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#577581 - 01/21/09 02:24 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Fleeting Visions Offline
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I am personally of the opinion that the recording itself is a wonderful lesson on musicianship- listen to how they use time, balance, phrasing, and SOUND. And that's thinking audio only. A visual context even provides some idea of how they execute. Granted, it should all be taken with a grain of salt, but careful listening can most definitely be an excellent way to learn about a piece.

Truecrypt's recordings are quite a mine!

And I will provide a link to one of my favorite recordings of the Scriabin 4th sonata . Simply because I think the whole world should hear it.
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#577582 - 01/21/09 02:30 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
The thread's about whether using Youtube videos as instructional guides, especially those ones posted of the good and great to illustrate matters of technique (drives me mad when posters do this - anybody could come up with 10 showing the reverse), is at all useful. What is going on inside and outside a performer during a performance is too complex to be used as a model for anything beyond interpretation and that is something so personal. [/b]
Steven, here's one of my early posts. I didn't steer it away to interpretation, it was where people wanted to go.
 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
Is it your opinion, then, that video is counterproductive for inspiring interpretation but useful for addressing technique?
[/b]
So no, it's the other way round unless we're talking instructional videos.
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#577583 - 01/21/09 02:50 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
sotto voce Offline
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Thanks for clarifying, kbk. It makes sense now. (I had overlooked, or forgotten about, your earlier post that you quoted.)

Steven
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Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
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#577584 - 01/21/09 04:14 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Mocheol Offline
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Are there or are there not great performers?
Horowitz, for example or Barenboihm

If somebody on this forum is as good then who is he.or she.

I believe its a monstrous conceit to think one cannot learn from the masters.

You tube therefore provides an invaluable opportunity to learn from these greats.
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#577585 - 01/21/09 04:26 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
whippen boy Offline
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Several folks have mentioned that one can learn from viewing clips of "great" performers.

One can also learn from the 'not so great' - if nothing else, how not[/b] to do something.

Learning comes in various guises, if we are receptive.
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#577586 - 01/21/09 04:33 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Mocheol:
Are there or are there not great performers?
Horowitz, for example or Barenboihm
[/b]
Barenboim? His Beethoven puts me to sleep. And folks, lets try not to confuse interpretation with technique.
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#577587 - 01/21/09 04:49 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Fleeting Visions Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mocheol:
Are there or are there not great performers?
Horowitz, for example or Barenboihm
[/b]
Barenboim? His Beethoven puts me to sleep. And folks, lets try not to confuse interpretation with technique. [/b]
Now that's an interesting debate- I would argue that control of tone, balance, pacing, and sound ARE technique.

Back to Barenboim, I even dislike his orchestral performances. That is an example of arid interpretation.
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#577588 - 01/21/09 04:52 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Fleeting Visions:
Now that's an interesting debate- I would argue that control of tone, balance, pacing, and sound ARE technique. [/b]
I would say each have their artistic versus practical (contingent) aspects, just to complicate things even further.
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#577589 - 01/21/09 05:01 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
sotto voce Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by whippen boy:
Several folks have mentioned that one can learn from viewing clips of "great" performers.

One can also learn from the 'not so great' - if nothing else, how not[/b] to do something.

Learning comes in various guises, if we are receptive. [/b]
I like YouTube. In addition to the wealth of great professional performances, there are a surprising number by talented amateurs as well.

Unfortunately, that's not always the case—as I realized anew when I checked out some videos of Schumann's Prophet Bird before I responded to a current thread about it.

Be warned—the following is so thoroughly toxic that I didn't wish even to mention it in the discussion about the piece. It is disconcerting that some people's self-awareness and apparent estimation of their skills are so jarringly out-of-sync with reality. What would possess someone to upload something this irredeemably, horrifyingly bad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXYe5nlDAA8

It makes me wonder how many even worse YouTube recordings there are out there. It would make an interesting thread to compile the worst of the worst … but it's probably a good thing that such overt Schadenfreude is frowned upon, after all.

Steven
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Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
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#577590 - 01/21/09 05:02 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
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Based on your youtube performances kk, I don't see how you can have nerve to even post in this thread. Clearly you need to practice.

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#577591 - 01/21/09 05:10 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
JustAnotherPianist Offline
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Okay now I'm starting to feel bad for kk. He's a school teacher and an amateur musician. School teachers are the unsung heroes of society, IMHO. They take enough of a beating from the kids they face all day long.
He clearly cares about music, and does his best to contribute to the PW community.

I just didn't like the insight comment....

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#577592 - 01/21/09 05:33 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
portmanteau Offline
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Registered: 08/24/08
Posts: 76
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mocheol:

I believe its a monstrous conceit to think one cannot learn from the masters.

[/b]
Well put

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#577593 - 01/21/09 05:44 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
GreenRain Offline
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Am i the only one who find it very ironic that kk has actually an youtube profile, on which he posted trill excersice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx6hCtGaO3U


Ps: I guess this is better than Barenboim:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7Z0nNSBT_g&feature=channel_page

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#577594 - 01/21/09 06:02 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
sotto voce Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherPianist:
Okay now I'm starting to feel bad for kk. He's a school teacher and an amateur musician. School teachers are the unsung heroes of society, IMHO. They take enough of a beating from the kids they face all day long.
He clearly cares about music, and does his best to contribute to the PW community.

I just didn't like the insight comment.... [/b]
+1.

Hubris is annoying, and I've been aggravated more than once by kbk's terse and frequently cryptic posting style, but some of the comments here are both unwarranted and mean-spirited IMHO.

kbk knows far more about human anatomy and the physiology of our playing mechanism than most people here, and I'm grateful for his willingness to share that knowledge.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#577595 - 01/21/09 06:55 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
currawong Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by devnull:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mocheol:

I believe its a monstrous conceit to think one cannot learn from the masters.

[/b]
Well put [/b]
Maybe so, but I don't think kbk was saying this. If you actually read his posts (I know, they can be a little cryptic \:\) ) he was warning against trying to make definitive statements about points of technique purely from watching youtube videos (of whoever), unless they are specifically designed to demonstrate such points.

I'm pretty sure his hide is tough enough to take some of the criticism that's been handed out (he's a school teacher after all \:\) ) but I for one don't think it's justified.
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#577596 - 01/21/09 07:46 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianovirus Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by GreenRain:
kk has actually an youtube profile, on which he posted trill excersice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx6hCtGaO3U
[/b]
It's based on the beautiful little Humming Song from Schumann's Album for the Young. This melody always brings up childhood memories for me.
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#577597 - 01/21/09 09:20 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Fleeting Visions Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
 Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherPianist:
Okay now I'm starting to feel bad for kk. He's a school teacher and an amateur musician. School teachers are the unsung heroes of society, IMHO. They take enough of a beating from the kids they face all day long.
He clearly cares about music, and does his best to contribute to the PW community.

I just didn't like the insight comment.... [/b]
+1.

Hubris is annoying, and I've been aggravated more than once by kbk's terse and frequently cryptic posting style, but some of the comments here are both unwarranted and mean-spirited IMHO.

kbk knows far more about human anatomy and the physiology of our playing mechanism than most people here, and I'm grateful for his willingness to share that knowledge.

Steven [/b]
x3. He's been a bit annoying, but back off the personal attacks.
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#577598 - 01/22/09 01:32 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Well, hey, thanks folks for the +'s, I think the blanket personal comments illustrate my point. To read a video you need to know what you're watching for. If you don't know about technique you're left with nothing but nonsense to say. All the videos quoted were posted to illustrate points of technique for specific posters. I'll be very surprised if some of the negative commentators actually understood the content. Thanks currawong, I think you summed up the thread precisely. As for being a bit annoying - yes, great fun isn't it!

PS actually there only seems to be one voice who wants me banned for alleged incompetence. Would that be a first for PW?
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#577599 - 01/22/09 02:05 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by GreenRain:

Ps: I guess this is better than Barenboim:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7Z0nNSBT_g&feature=channel_page [/b]
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. The point of technique illustrated, again for a particular poster, is what you should be doing in between the notes, which is not doing - something I pride myself on.
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#577600 - 01/22/09 03:43 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Gary D. Online   content
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 Quote:
Originally posted by GreenRain:
Ps: I guess this is better than Barenboim:
I'll be more blunt than others. Your comment to kbk here is way below the belt. My understanding is that has shared videos with the intent of helping other people.

The fact that he does not like the playing of Barenboim, for whatever reasons, is his right. If you do or do not believe that watching You Tube videos is helpful, make your points. Don't use underhanded attacks.
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#577601 - 01/22/09 05:38 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Phlebas Offline


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Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by GreenRain:
Ps: I guess this is better than Barenboim:
I'll be more blunt than others. Your comment to kbk here is way below the belt. My understanding is that has shared videos with the intent of helping other people.

The fact that he does not like the playing of Barenboim, for whatever reasons, is his right. If you do or do not believe that watching You Tube videos is helpful, make your points. Don't use underhanded attacks. [/b]
+1

I agree. It was a silly post, and the personal nature was completely uncalled for.

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#577602 - 01/22/09 08:01 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
[The fact that he does not like the playing of Barenboim, for whatever reasons, is his right. If you do or do not believe that watching You Tube videos is helpful, make your points. Don't use underhanded attacks. [/b]
kbk said far more than just not liking Barenboim. He said there was nothing to learn from the youtube videos of the great pianists(not just Barenboim) either technically or interpretively for him or anyone else. That his interpretation was superior to the great pianists. That pianists who think they can learn musical or technical things from watching these videos are wrong.

For someone, *even a world class pianist*, to state his interpretations and insight are superior to everyone else's seems beyond reason. In terms of technique, I think there are many good ways to play the piano(perhaps with a few basic ideas in common), so someone who thinks the only correct technical approach is their way is narrow minded. Nor is there one best way to teach or learn how to play.

If you look at his Haydn performance on youtube(sightread or not)does this look like a pianist who has nothing to learn from the greatest pianists? I was in a state of shock as I watched it thinking that this could be the same person making the posts in this thread. I originally thought the posted youtube video must be a joke.

Personally, I think I learn something musically and technically every time I watch a youtube performance of a great pianist.

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#577603 - 01/22/09 08:49 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Wood-demon Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Mocheol:

I believe its a monstrous conceit to think one cannot learn from the masters.

[/b]
Absolutely, but you can also be misled by them.
Anybody trying to copy the finger techniques of Iturbi (Amparo or Jose) or Landowska might well finish up in the Accident and Emergency department of their local hospital. It would be unwise, too, to sit as high on the stool as Cherkassky or as low as Kentner.
As for interpretation, a comparison of any half-dozen recordings of Schumann's Carnaval, for example, will probably reveal some very idiosyncratic ideas about the way the piece should be played.
Personally, when learning a work new to myself I like to avoid hearing the piece played by others until I have made my own decisions on its interpretation....after all, that's what musicians had to do in the days before widely disseminated recordings or You tube clips were available.

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#577604 - 01/22/09 09:16 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keystring Online   content
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I've been following this thread silently and haven't contributed because I don't believe I know nearly enough about piano playing or music yet. I still think so but I'll try anyway.

It is not a bad idea to try to understand what someone is trying to say, and listen with new ears if need be. Is there something to be learned, however perfect or imperfect an actual demonstration may be? What is this person trying to say or show? Must everyone beat to the same drummer and sing the same song? Kbk has spent a lot of years studying music as well as physiology, has a degree in music - this is not some amateur experimenter come lately to the piano, which the tone of some the posts imply.

Actually, reading some of the comments would incline me against Youtube as model - with what ear are people listening, for what? The opening argument is in favour of studying the score and understanding it deeply, and then to form your interpretation from that understanding. It happens that this is how I was taught, so whatever I read is the norm for me. I'm trying not to let that prejudice me.

The samples that people have pulled out seem, to my inexperienced ear, to illustrate what Kbk is talking about. I'm going by what I do hear - not how excellent or virtuosic (or not) the playing may be - but what it illustrates. I hear interpretation. I hear phrasing, where the sequence of notes actually seem to be saying something. The individual notes have individual character and fit into these phrases. This is what I am capable of hearing. There are probably a million things that others want to hear which escape me.

The thing is that these are also things that by and large I am not hearing in most Youtube performances. I googled the piece in question and listened to the beginning of about half a dozen performances. A lot were "impressive" in a way that Kbk's perhaps is not. But these particular qualities of phrasing or the speaking of the notes were not there in any of them. And in general when I google piano performances, I often have the impression of something being missing.

This is not a new phenomenon for me. The same thing played out in the violin forums: there was a new sound and attitude, and an old one. Those who still heard with the older ears would be hearing things which the newer ones could not hear, because they were listening for something else. The newer ones would find flaws in the old masters because they were listening toward different kinds of standards, some of them homogenized, and I think maybe more external. I don't know if the same thing is playing out here. My piano ears are still much too undeveloped.

I may be totally out to lunch in terms of what I'm hearing and understanding. I do think, however, that a different attitude might be in order in regards to some of the posts.

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#577605 - 01/22/09 09:44 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
sotto voce Offline
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GreenRain's post was singled out, but I thought a couple of others—from the same poster, yet—were worse (though I must say that "Played Better at 12" would be a pretty funny screen name!).

Steven
_________________________

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Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#577606 - 01/22/09 11:15 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
GreenRain Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by GreenRain:
Ps: I guess this is better than Barenboim:
I'll be more blunt than others. Your comment to kbk here is way below the belt. My understanding is that has shared videos with the intent of helping other people.

The fact that he does not like the playing of Barenboim, for whatever reasons, is his right. If you do or do not believe that watching You Tube videos is helpful, make your points. Don't use underhanded attacks. [/b]
So is my right to not like his videos lol.

The paradox is that he dont beleive that anyone can learn from youtube, yet he post his video on it.

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#577607 - 01/22/09 11:18 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
GreenRain Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
GreenRain's post was singled out, but I thought a couple of others—from the same poster, yet—were worse (though I must say that "Played Better at 12" would be a pretty funny screen name!).

Steven [/b]
Lol, that would really be a funny screen name \:D

I also agree with you about my posts.
Some of them are on really low level, but not the one in this thread.

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#577608 - 01/22/09 11:39 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
GreenRain's post was singled out, but I thought a couple of others—from the same poster, yet—were worse (though I must say that "Played Better at 12" would be a pretty funny screen name!).

Steven [/b]
I guess you found kbk's Haydn sight reading performance impressive and typical of a world class pianist.

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#577609 - 01/22/09 11:55 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
sotto voce Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
I guess you found kbk's Haydn sight reading performance impressive and typical of a world class pianist. [/b]
Haydn is outside my ken, and I don't know what would be typical of a world-class pianist (or of a typical 12-year-old) ... but for a skilled amateur, I did indeed think it was impressive sight-reading. \:\(

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#577610 - 01/22/09 12:18 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
I guess you found kbk's Haydn sight reading performance impressive and typical of a world class pianist. [/b]
Haydn is outside my ken, and I don't know what would be typical of a world-class pianist (or of a typical 12-year-old) ... but for a skilled amateur, I did indeed think it was impressive sight-reading. \:\(

Steven [/b]
Well, you don't have to know Haydn to know it wasn't an impressive sightreading performance because the piece is so elementary, and that there were some technical problems evident. Trying to compare the sight reading performance by kbk of that piece to the sight reading performance of the same piece by an accomplished professional is like comparing your basketball skills to Michael Jordan.

Have a look at the kbk peformance of Chopin Etude Op. 25 #1 for another example of average amateur playing IMHO.

You must have read stories where one great pianist recounts a fantastic performance by some other pianist. If one fantastic pianist can rave(and learn)from another great pianist, I think we all should be able to do the same. Also, *some* great teachers have taught by example or actually playing along with their pupils. That's why there are usually two pianos available at master classes and in conservatory studios.

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#577611 - 01/22/09 12:24 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Horowitzian Offline
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Can you sightread it better? :p
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#577612 - 01/22/09 12:31 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
Can you sightread it better? :p [/b]
Perhaps. Certainly not worse, and yet I still think I can gain endless musical and technical insight by listening/watching youtube videos of the greats. But the point was that kbk was comparing himself to the world's great pianists (and they can sight read it better).

My ability to sight read it better is not relevant.

When you watch and listen to a Horowitz youtube video do you think you learn anything musically or technically?

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#577613 - 01/22/09 12:36 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Horowitzian Offline
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You left yourself wide open. :p

Where did kbk compare himself to the great pianists? I must have missed that.
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#577614 - 01/22/09 12:39 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
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You did miss it.

When he said he had more insight and didn't enjoy virtually any of their interpretations. You need to read the thread from the beginning.

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#577615 - 01/22/09 12:40 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
text Offline
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Registered: 12/01/06
Posts: 73
Loc: Windsor, United Kingdom
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Sorry, I was a bit slow on that one. It's obviously the frontier mentality - the Sears, Roebuck approach to learning. [/b]
and maybe they can learn something from it - who are you to say they cannot just because you feel it is a method that doesn't suit you.

Frankly from the sarcastic tone of your opening post you deserve every "below the belt" comment that has been levelled.

Just for clarity's sake perhaps you'd like to expand on what you meant by this sentence:

It's obviously the frontier mentality - the Sears, Roebuck approach to learning.

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#577616 - 01/22/09 05:14 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Well often yes to some extent. The great and good need to record all 32 of Beethoven's sonatas in a few months to make a living. I can spend years on just one. I even have time to go to the British Museum and study the first editions and manuscripts not to mention everyone else's editions. It's how it works with amateurs. [/b]
pianoloverus, 'Well often yes to some extent' is not quite the same thing as 'I'm better than the great concert pianists'.
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#577617 - 01/22/09 05:26 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
pianoloverus Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Well often yes to some extent. The great and good need to record all 32 of Beethoven's sonatas in a few months to make a living. I can spend years on just one. I even have time to go to the British Museum and study the first editions and manuscripts not to mention everyone else's editions. It's how it works with amateurs. [/b]
pianoloverus, 'Well often yes to some extent' is not quite the same thing as 'I'm better than the great concert pianists'. [/b]
So you're only "often" better than the great pianists and not always?
And you're only better "to some extent" as opposed to in every possible way?

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#577618 - 01/22/09 05:29 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
Have a look at the kbk peformance of Chopin Etude Op. 25 #1 for another example of average amateur playing IMHO.[/b]
That illustrates playing with totally flat fingers and on an old Rhodes to boot! I'm rather proud of that one.
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#577619 - 01/22/09 05:33 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
So you're only "often" better than the great pianists and not always?
And you're only better "to some extent" as opposed to in every possible way? [/b]
Just the facts ma'am, just the facts.
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#577620 - 01/22/09 08:20 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
jscomposer Offline
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I think the title should be "The klutz admiration thread!"
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#577621 - 01/23/09 12:04 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Gary D. Online   content
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I am not expressing admiration. I'm expressing irritation at selective quotation and the twisting of words.

I disagree with kbk on any number of subjects, and that is not likely to change. I'm sure he disagrees strongly with many of my ideas. It doesn't mean that either of us need or should engage in attempted character assassination.

I've read this thread from beginning to end. Several people have put words in his mouth. I continue to think that this is essentially dishonest.

I'd appreciate it (for what it is worth) if people would make their points and leave it at that.

I have two thoughts about the value of watching You Tube videos.

My first is that students may indeed do more harm to themselves than good.

But I also believe that those of us who have played for decades and (hopefully) either play or have played well CAN learn a great deal from these videos. \:\)
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#577622 - 01/23/09 01:48 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
jscomposer Offline
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I was being sarcastic.
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#577623 - 01/23/09 01:50 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
My first is that students may indeed do more harm to themselves than good.

But I also believe that those of us who have played for decades and (hopefully) either play or have played well CAN learn a great deal from these videos. \:\) [/b]
I really do go with Gary's views. The experienced hand sees so much more than the surface.

Upon reflection, I would be the first one to agree I don't practice enough to give much element of polish. The hours of drill would drive me bananas ! But that in no way precludes precious insight into a composer's thought. The music happens up here and in here (points to head and heart) not here (points to ears). Much of this thread has really been about amateur vs pro. As a poster kinda observed earlier the scales are not all tipped one way.
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#577624 - 01/23/09 01:51 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
My first is that students may indeed do more harm to themselves than good.

But I also believe that those of us who have played for decades and (hopefully) either play or have played well CAN learn a great deal from these videos. \:\) [/b]
I really do go with Gary's views. The experienced hand sees so much more than the surface.

Upon reflection, I would be the first one to agree I don't practice enough to give much element of polish. The hours of drill would drive me bananas ! But that in no way precludes precious insight into a composer's thought. The music happens up here and in here (points to head and heart) not here (points to ears). Much of this thread has really been about amateur vs pro. As a poster or two kinda eluded earlier, the scales are not all tipped one way.
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#577625 - 01/23/09 02:24 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Gary D. Online   content
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Perhaps the central problem is that it takes an extremely well-developed concept of playing to keep from being so strongly influenced by great players that we lose our own voice.

In the beginning we don't have one, or it is so primitive and fragile that it is in danger of being destroyed.

Not to listen to other fine players at all is an extreme, and the result is ignorance.

But once we start listening to the "great ones", where do we stop?

I remember being totally hypnotized by Horowitz, Richter and so many other huge talents when I was young. I was in danger of destroying my own ability to play by attempting to imitate them, leading to a total technical lock-up.

However, since a lot of damage was already done just by listening and imitating—I had terrible teaching until almost the age of 21—I suspect I was actually held back more by NOT seeing these people play, because no one was able to convince me not to try to acheive technical mastery through brute strength. I was lucky the only thing I did was to delay technical development rather than to cripple myself. I believe that seeing Horowitz (I had only heard him) would have totally convinced me to change all my ideas about the physical part of playing.

To get back to the player in the video, beginning of this thread, the only thing he does that I would not recommend for the average student is the rather low wrist (at times), simply because when I use that position my hands immediately become at least somewhat stiff. The fingers do not move well at that angle. This does not mean that this position is not right for him, but from his Chopin Opus 10 No. 2 Etude, I suspect that he may be getting far less than optimal results, since in the middle of that the notes become quite uneven.

That could also come from a thousand other things though.

The problem in judging what we see is that for SOME people the same thing that would cripple most other people may actually be the best way for them.

Or they may play incredibly well IN SPITE of what they are doing, and something else might work even better. We never know for sure.
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#577626 - 01/23/09 05:50 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
RogerW Online   content
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I'll start by admitting that I haven't had time to read the whole thread, only bits here and there. Sorry if this already has been said.

Instead of asking yourself "can I learn interpretation by listening to other performances" you could ask yourself "can I learn interpretation if I never listened to other performances?" The answer to the second question is no. It would be like trying to learn how to pronounce English without ever hearing it spoken. No matter how many written pronounciation guides you read, you could never get the nuances right. And after all, what is right? English is a language that evolves and the conceptions of correct pronounciation varies around the world.

Music is a language in the same way. The notes on the sheet are like letters in the alphabet, they say what sound should be produced, but nothing about the fine nuances of how it should sound. What we call "correct interpretation" is in fact nothing but tradition. A tradition that lives on and evolves when musicians listen to the interpretations of earlier generations, keep what they like and add their own ideas. It is because we grow up listening to this music, we get accustomed to what it should sound like and therefore we are able to reproduce it. Pianists that grow up in a different cultural environment might grow up with a totally different perception of what this music should sound like, LL is a well known example of this. If you never listened to other musicians playing classical music, you'd be so far out and offer such strange interpretations that nobody in the classical world could stand listening to you (think LL*10^6).

I'm sure someone will think "but of course you can tell what is the correct interpretation, because there's a natural way to play it", but this is not true. The only reason someone thinks it's natural that some music should be performed a certain way is that he has heard similar music performed that way so many times.

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#577627 - 01/23/09 06:46 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
wr Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by RogerW:


I'm sure someone will think "but of course you can tell what is the correct interpretation, because there's a natural way to play it", but this is not true. The only reason someone thinks it's natural that some music should be performed a certain way is that he has heard that music performed that way so many times. [/b]
That can't be right, or no one could ever convincingly perform music they hadn't heard someone else perform earlier, which is nonsense. I've been working on several pieces I have never heard anyone else play. And I think I have at at least a small idea of how they should go, just from the notes on the page.

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#577628 - 01/23/09 07:16 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
RogerW Online   content
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 Quote:
Originally posted by wr:
 Quote:
Originally posted by RogerW:


I'm sure someone will think "but of course you can tell what is the correct interpretation, because there's a natural way to play it", but this is not true. The only reason someone thinks it's natural that some music should be performed a certain way is that he has heard that music performed that way so many times. [/b]
That can't be right, or no one could ever convincingly perform music they hadn't heard someone else perform earlier, which is nonsense. I've been working on several pieces I have never heard anyone else play. And I think I have at at least a small idea of how they should go, just from the notes on the page. [/b]
But you probably have heard a lot of music in the same style, which give you a framework for how to interpret the music. If you take a piece of music written in a style you've never heard before and make an interpretation based only on the written score, you are very likely to end up with an interpretation that is very far from the composer's intention.

Sorry the confusion, I edited my first post to be more clear on this matter.

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#577629 - 01/23/09 07:25 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Wood-demon Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
My first is that students may indeed do more harm to themselves than good.

But I also believe that those of us who have played for decades and (hopefully) either play or have played well CAN learn a great deal from these videos. \:\) [/b]
Upon reflection, I would be the first one to agree I don't practice enough to give much element of polish. The hours of drill would drive me bananas ! But that in no way precludes precious insight into a composer's thought. The music happens up here and in here (points to head and heart) not here (points to ears). Much of this thread has really been about amateur vs pro. As a poster or two kinda eluded earlier, the scales are not all tipped one way. [/b]
I'm surprised by this confession! Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it you who, some while back on this forum, insisted that all music had to be memorised hands separately so that one could start from any place in the score before one could dare to offer a performance to the public?
Hardly possible, I would have thought without hours of banana-driving drill. Don't you think that before possibly frightening, with such demands, the living daylights out of some poor kid reading this forum who was about to perform in public and who was not so well-prepared that you should have owned-up that you don't always follow your own advice?

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#577630 - 01/23/09 07:33 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
dsch Offline
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It's very distressing to me that a poster can't express a dislike or lack of preference for a particular performer without getting attacked in a deeply personal way.

There should be some Piano World Forum approved way to say that

"this particular performer does not move me as much as others do"

without getting pelted with rotting vegetables. Or worse, as is the case in this thread.

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#577631 - 01/23/09 07:43 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Wood-demon Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by RogerW:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wr:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by RogerW:
[qb]

But you probably have heard a lot of music in the same style, which give you a framework for how to interpret the music. If you take a piece of music written in a style you've never heard before and make an interpretation based only on the written score, you are very likely to end up with an interpretation that is very far from the composer's intention. [/b]
But nobody can be really sure what the composer's intentions were unless he was around within living memory (even then, maybe not).
I was a child when Handel/Sargent and Bach/Karajan were still believed, by some, to be the way to perform the music of these masters; in my teenage years performers like George Malcolm or Raymond Leppard seemed to have been giving the key to intepreting their music. Nowadays the playing of George Malcolm is hardly considered "authentic." Scholars and performers are regularly re-thinking the way in which we perform music from previous eras. And who's to say we've got it right today? Maybe Sir Malcolm knew best after all!

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#577632 - 01/23/09 08:34 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
RogerW Online   content
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Wood-demon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by RogerW:
But you probably have heard a lot of music in the same style, which give you a framework for how to interpret the music. If you take a piece of music written in a style you've never heard before and make an interpretation based only on the written score, you are very likely to end up with an interpretation that is very far from the composer's intention. [/b]
But nobody can be really sure what the composer's intentions were unless he was around within living memory (even then, maybe not).[/b]
Exactly what I was saying. There is no absolute right or wrong, because we cannot know the composers real intentions. Still, most people have their own perception of what is right or wrong, all based on tradition. What we think is the natural way of performing something is not necessarily how the composer imagined it performed, it is what naturally fits into the current tradition. Without this tradition, the "natural way" of performing something would be completely different.

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#577633 - 01/23/09 12:52 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Wood-demon:
I'm surprised by this confession! Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it you who, some while back on this forum, insisted that all music had to be memorised hands separately so that one could start from any place in the score before one could dare to offer a performance to the public?
[/b]
YES, but I'm not offering a performance to the public! When I did my diploma I could play from memory any point and either hand, apart from some Bach - I read that from the score.
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#577634 - 01/23/09 12:54 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by RogerW:
Instead of asking yourself "can I learn interpretation by listening to other performances" you could ask yourself "can I learn interpretation if I never listened to other performances?" [/b]
Yes, because you learn your interpretation from your teacher and, before anyone comments that that seems a bit narrow, it depends on the teacher!
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#577635 - 01/24/09 11:35 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
Mocheol Offline
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There is no such thing as "correct" interpretation since any piece of music is capable of individual interpretation.

Interpretation is purely a matter of personal taste.

Obviusly there is such a thing as correct playing,note values,timing etc and perhaps there may be such a thing as 'correct" technique though I doubt it.
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#577636 - 01/24/09 11:56 AM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Mocheol:
There is no such thing as "correct" interpretation [/b]
Yes, but there is an informed one.
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#577637 - 01/24/09 01:03 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
jazzyprof Offline
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RogerW is right when he says that you really wouldn't know how to interpret a piece of written music if you had never heard music of that tradition. As an example, I am learning a piece that has "Tempo rubato" indicated at the outset. So you go to a music dictionary and you learn that rubato means "a limited freedom of rhythm and tempo when performing a piece of music where the time extension applied to one note is taken (hence 'robbed) from an adjoining note or notes". OK, so how does one know exactly how much freedom is allowed and exactly where one should rob the time within a passage? Should one hand keep strict time while the other plays around with time? That's where listening to the acclaimed masters of the tradition, the Rubinsteins, the Horowitzes, the Michelangelis, can help the performer interpret "tempo rubato" since the written notation offers no clues.

The same problem exists in jazz. You can play a written transcription of an Oscar Peterson solo but unless you have heard real jazz being played you would not know how to interpret the indication "swing eights". Your performance would not swing and would not sound like jazz. With Youtube one can listen to and watch the greatest performers of any style, borrow from several, and thus arrive at our own interpretation which is true to the tradition but is not an exact copy of any one else's.

Yes, kbk, there is an informed interpretation and you can get "informed" by watching the greats on Youtube.
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#577638 - 01/24/09 01:05 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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You'd be much better off asking your teacher.
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#577639 - 01/24/09 01:19 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
sotto voce Offline
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I don't think it should be taken for granted that everyone has, can afford or needs a teacher.

Steven
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Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
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#577640 - 01/24/09 01:25 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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That then is a problem. I meet mine for lunch most weeks. What is embarrassing is that my 'practice' since stopping lessons is so patchy and random I can't play to the appropriate standard for her anymore. But 'needs', yes.
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#577641 - 01/24/09 01:28 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
jazzyprof Offline
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Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
You'd be much better off asking your teacher. [/b]
There is no better teaching, no better masterclass than watching Horowitz, Rubinstein, Michelangeli, Argerich, Hamelin, Polloni, Richter, Kissin perform on Youtube. And it's all free.
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#577642 - 01/24/09 01:29 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Yes there is, but you gotta pay.
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#577643 - 01/24/09 01:38 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
jazzyprof Offline
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Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2621
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Yes there is, but you gotta pay. [/b]
That may very well be the case, but your initial assertion that one cannot learn by watching Youtube, is, IMHO, not supported by any evidence.
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#577644 - 01/24/09 01:58 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
JustAnotherPianist Offline
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Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Wood-demon:
I'm surprised by this confession! Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it you who, some while back on this forum, insisted that all music had to be memorised hands separately so that one could start from any place in the score before one could dare to offer a performance to the public?
[/b]
YES, but I'm not offering a performance to the public! When I did my diploma I could play from memory any point and either hand, apart from some Bach - I read that from the score. [/b]
kk,
You are certainly right on this one.

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#577645 - 01/24/09 02:07 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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jprof, you need to read the entire thread, there are plenty of interesting opinions. JAP, what that's supposed to mean is anyone's guess.
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#577646 - 01/24/09 02:12 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
JustAnotherPianist Offline
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Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
I was talking about hands-separate memorization.

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#577647 - 01/24/09 02:14 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Ah, I was expecting sarcasm.
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#577648 - 01/24/09 02:31 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
jazzyprof Offline
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Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2621
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
jprof, you need to read the entire thread, [/b]
I have.
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#577649 - 01/24/09 02:33 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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I thought maybe you had. So, none of the arguments grab you?
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#577650 - 01/24/09 02:39 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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Wow, two more posts and we'll have as many as 'biggest stretch on pianoworld'!
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#577651 - 01/24/09 02:45 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2621
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
I thought maybe you had. So, none of the arguments grab you? [/b]
I am sure there are lots of cogent arguments here. I am just stating that I, personally, am one of those folks in the title of your thread who thinks he can learn something by watching Horowitz, Rubinstein, Michelangeli, Argerich, Hamelin, Polloni, Richter, Kissin perform on Youtube.

OK, kbk, let's make this the longest thread on PW!
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#577652 - 01/24/09 02:48 PM Re: I get it. Some folks think you can learn something from Youtube.
keyboardklutz Offline
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I was hoping it would just fade away! I think we've been there, done it.
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