Recently, on a web site specializing in old animated films,
someone requested the identification of a tune in the
background music of an old Popeye cartoon. Someone
else correctly identified the tune as part of "Narcissus" by
Ethelbert Nevin, referencing the MIDI sequence of
"Narcissus" on my homepage, but suggesting that the
tempo of my version was too slow. (The violin version of
the tune in the cartoon was at a fairly brisk pace).

At that time I had the tempo of my MIDI of "Narcissus" set at
70, which did seem to be dragging a little. I tried speeding up
the tempo, but it didn't sound right to me until I dropped it back
to 72.

The original sheet music of Narcissus does not indicate a
precise tempo, but simply has "Andante con moto", which
would be a little slower than moderato. It also has "cantando",
indicating a singing style, suggesting drawn-out tones.

Out on YouTube is the piano version of "Narcissus" played
about as briskly as the violin quotation in the Popeye cartoon.
This makes it sound like something to tap-dance to.

Who is right? Perhaps the answer is in the title "Narcissus".
An old Funk & Wagnalls has this:
"Narcissus. In Greek mythology, a youth who caused the death
of Echo by spurning her love. Nemesis caused him to fall in
love with his own image in water and pine away for it until he
died and changed into the narcissus."

Nevin's "Narcissus" is a part of his "Water Scenes" for piano.
While I enjoy the brisk violin quotation of it in the Popeye
cartoon, in the original piano composition I prefer a slower
pace with drawn-out meditative tones.

Since posting this, I discovered that there was a song version of "Narcissus", which has the familiar piano melody behind a different voice melody. Only near the end of the song do the voice and piano melodies coincide.

Go to my presentation of 28 songs by Nevin. http://www.angelfire.com/ks/landzastanza/en.html
Scroll down to the cover of the piano version of "Narcissus. Notice that the voice and piano version is first in the list of transcriptions. Beneath this cover I present the lyrics of the voice and piano version with a highlighted title to click on to play a MIDI sequence of the song.

The song version of "Narcissus" shows that the "andante con moto" and "cantando" printed with the piano version should indicate that briskly playing the piece, while entertaining, was not what Nevin had in mind.

prismsplay :

While you are evidently more of a Nevin scholar than I, and I concede that you may have resources that give a better idea of "what Nevin had in mind" for the piano version of this piece, I do think that the tempo of the vocal version has to be based on what the vocal line does. The vocal line, as you observe, incorporates a melody that is absent from the piano version.

My opinion remains unchanged; for the piano version I find a tempo of MM=72 quite contrary to the con moto indication; to me it sounds much too plodding.

I think that you and I will continue to disagree on the tempo of the piano version which, Funk & Wagnall notwithstanding, I prefer at around MM=88 to 92. At this tempo and with appropriate attention to phrasing and dynamics, I don't think it necessarily has to sound like a tap dance.

Do we know that "what Nevin had in mind" when writing this piece was Narcissus pining away or simply taking delight in his own image?

Regards,

Dear BruceD:

I appreciate your thoughtful reply.

I tried playing "Narcissus" in the tempo range that you suggested, which is certainly presentable, although in my opinion, it moves out of the "andante" region indicated by Nevin. But in your defence, "andante con moto" is nearly "moderato".

I would call to your attention a memory of the American artistic dancer Isadora Duncan concerning her dance version of "Narcissus":
http://books.google.com/books?id=Je2nOIT...pL3kJVd4s&hl=en

Ah! If we only had a video-audio recording of Isadora Duncan dancing to "Narcissus" played on the piano by Ethelbert Nevin! Then we would know exactly what Nevin had in mind!

(this was a duplicate post)

In the 1935 book "Ethelbert Nevin" by John Tasker Howard, on page 156, is a quote from "New Music Review" (1908), which refers to the "lazy grace of the rhythm" of "Narcissus".

It should be noted that the man mentioning "the lazy grace of the rhythm" had not been listening to just anyone playing the piece, but Ethelbert Nevin himself.

I am guessing that the tempo at which the composer played "Narcissus" was somewhere near to this:

http://www.angelfire.com/ks/landzastanza/en134.mid

By your own admission, that is a guess. To my ears, there is no con moto in that tempo. It drags far too much and lacks any "lazy grace" - with emphasis on "grace"?

If the time signature is 6/8 - as I think I remember it to be, but I could be wrong - it should feel like two beats to a bar; I don't feel it that way in this version, as it bogs down on individual notes. I wouldn't increase the tempo by much, but just enough to feel two beats per bar. My suggested tempo (in 6/8) would be MM=92 to 100 to the dotted quarter.

Regards,

Anyone can play "Narcissus" at any tempo one chooses. It is only out of historical interest that I started this topic.

"Narcissus" was originally one of the five pieces in Nevin's 1891 "Water Scenes" for piano.

The time signature of "Narcissus" is C (4/4). It is marked "Andante con moto", which is a little slower than "Moderato". It is also marked "cantando", which means "in a singing style".

Its composer was thinking about the story in Greek mythology when he composed "Narcissus". In the composer's own words published in "The Musician":

"I remembered vaguely that there was once a Grecian lad who had something to do with the water and who was called 'Narcissus'. I rummaged about my old mythology and read the story over again. The theme, or rather both themes, came as I read. I went directly to my desk and wrote out the whole composition."

The artistic dancer Isadora Duncan danced to "Narcissus" in an interpretive manner, with the story in Greek mythology in mind. She did not wear tap shoes. She usually danced barefoot.

At what tempo did "Narcissus" became internationally popular? Vance Thompson, in his 1913 book "The LIfe of Ethelbert Nevin", wrote:

" 'Narcissus' . . . was thrummed and whistled half round the world. It was played in Cairo as in New York, and Paris; it was played by orchestras and on church organs and on the mouth harps of Klondike miners; it became a mode, almost a mania.... And 'Narcissus' went its way in the world; it sold not by thousands, but by hundreds of thousands; no composition by an American composer has had to stand so much wear and tear. Yet, today, [1913] its vitality is unimpaired."

I suppose early audio recordings of "Narcissus" still exist. The testimony of two or three of them might be sufficient to suggest the tempo at which the piece first became popular. Until I listen to them and either stand corrected or am confirmed, I am thinking that the written evidence suggests that "Narcissus" was never intended to be a tap dance tune, even if that is what modern performances of it tend towards.

I must have heard that piece a thousand times as a child. It was used as the theme song for an early television show. I think I'd let the triplets dictate the tempo.

When one hears music in that sort of situation, it becomes difficult to take it seriously. It took me years to get over the Blue Danube being used in a dog food commercial (Three cartoon dogs singing: "Give me Rival dog food - ARF ARF, ARF ARF (repeat), Your dog's eyes will shine, oh so fine, with nourishing Rival dog food.")

I did some google searches and found a 1910 audio recording of "Narcissus" by Sousa's band (despite Sousa's dislike of recorded music):

http://cylinders.library.ucsb.edu/search...ry=cylinder6927

Although the tempo is faster than I think it should be played, in 1910 Sousa was entering a phase in which his music was showing influences from ragtime. For example, his 1911 march "The Federal":

http://www.angelfire.com/ks/landzastanza/jpstf.mid

and his 1912 ragtime piano piece "With Pleasure":

http://www.angelfire.com/ks/landzastanza/jpswp.mid

So Sousa's band's tempo for "Narcissus" is not sufficient evidence for establishing how fast the piano piece was played when it became immensely popular. It is only evidence that it was popular enough to be included in the band's performances.

The phase lasted at least until 1929:
Sousa - Easter Monday on the White House Lawn