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#582033 - 10/28/04 12:00 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
ryan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 1995
Loc: Colorado
I hear what you are saying, but I don't call wht Lang Lang does "flair", I call it annoying ;\)

Do some reasearch on Richter. Sorry, but your facts aren't right. I double checked, and what I wrote above is correct.

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#582034 - 10/28/04 12:04 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by ryan:
No offense intended, but I don't think Volodos belongs in the same discussion as Richter. [/b]
Richter is one of the most super-overrated pianists ever, along with Horowitz and co.

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#582035 - 10/28/04 12:08 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
jeffylube Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 716
Loc: Weatherford, Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by ryan:
Do some reasearch on Richter. Sorry, but your facts aren't right. I double checked, and what I wrote above is correct. [/b]
Please tell me which "facts" about Richter that I wrote are wrong?

I said that he started piano around 10 and in his teens he was mainly attracted to opera. From a random bio on the net:

"He had his first music lessons with his father, becoming a master of the keyboard at the age of 8. The family later moved to Odessa where the young Sviatoslav enrolled at the Odessa Conservatory. In his teens, he was attracted to a career in conducting and at the astoundingly young age of 15 became a conductor for the Odessa Opera and the Ballet Theater, a post he held for four years. He gave his first piano recital at age 19 also in Odessa."

I see that I was off 2 years on his age, and I never denied that his father was musical. Even at 8 he was playing opera scores, which goes along with what I said about him being more interested in that and conducting during his youth. Yes I know that he was around music most of his early life. He was mostly self taught until Neuhaus. But the fact that he gave his first recital at 19 even though he was a musical genius shows that he started somewhat late, as I had said. Most concert pianists give their first recitals at about 9 or 10.

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#582036 - 10/28/04 12:24 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
snap_apple Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 710
 Quote:
Originally posted by George W. Bush:
Richter is one of the most super-overrated pianists ever, along with Horowitz and co. [/b]
explain

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#582037 - 10/28/04 12:26 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
ryan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 1995
Loc: Colorado
 Quote:
Originally posted by snap_apple:
 Quote:
Originally posted by George W. Bush:
Richter is one of the most super-overrated pianists ever, along with Horowitz and co. [/b]
explain [/b]
Don't...Take...The...Bait...

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#582038 - 10/28/04 12:29 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
ryan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 1995
Loc: Colorado
Jeffylube,

You changed your argument! Earlier you said that Richter started late and didn't meet the start-at-4 "requirement". Now you say that he started at 4 (or younger), but he started late because his first recital was at 19? I'm confused \:\( If Richter was playing virtuoso music at the age of 8, how is that a late start???

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#582039 - 10/28/04 12:37 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
jeffylube Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 716
Loc: Weatherford, Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by ryan:
Jeffylube,

You changed your argument! Earlier you said that Richter started late and didn't meet the start-at-4 "requirement". Now you say that he started at 4 (or younger), but he started late because his first recital was at 19? I'm confused \:\( If Richter was playing virtuoso music at the age of 8, how is that a late start??? [/b]
NO, I did NOT say he started at 4. Where did you get that?? I said he started around 10 learning piano (actually it's 8, so I was a little off). While he was a musical genius even at that age, instead of working from 10 on at becoming a concert pianist, he was spending most of his teenage years studying opera and conducting. It was only in his late teens (17 years old) that he decided he wanted to be a pianist and start pursuing that. That's when he went to Neuhaus, and then at 19 gave his first recital.

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#582040 - 10/28/04 12:42 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
snap_apple Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 710

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#582041 - 10/28/04 12:47 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
ryan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 1995
Loc: Colorado
Jeffylube, what can I say? You are confused! \:\)

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#582042 - 10/28/04 12:58 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
netizen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/01
Posts: 1926
Loc: New York
1. talent
2. excellent and well-connected teachers
3. money
4. a thick skin
5. major competition wins (see 2)

Repeat as needed.

_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-- Theodore Roosevelt

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#582043 - 10/28/04 01:17 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
jeffylube Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 716
Loc: Weatherford, Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by ryan:
Jeffylube, what can I say? You are confused! \:\) [/b]
...

A big negative, sir...

Honestly, it doesn't matter if I'm right and know what I'm talking about and you don't... ;\) :p

No but seriously...what do you think of my avatar?

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#582044 - 10/28/04 03:26 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
Allazart Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 389
I have the book "The Great Pianists" by Harold Schonberg. This is an excerpt about Richter:

 Quote:

For a while there seemed to be some question as to whether Richter would ever be a pianist. He was tremendously gifted as a child and could read anything at the piano, but he spent more time going through scores than practicing repertoire. His parents were German and his father was his first teacher. During World War II, according to Time magazine, Richter's father came under suspicion because of his German name and because he taught piano at the German consulate in Odessa. He was arrested and killed by the security police. Richter's mother fled to West Germany and settled there. Following his love for opera, Sviatoslav became and accompanist at the Odessa Opera Theater when he was fifteen and was chief assistant conductor three years later. Not until 1934, when he was nineteen, did he make his debut as a pianist, and not until twenty-seven did he enter the Moscow Conservatory to study under Neuhaus. Thus, he never followed the usual pattern of great concert pianists, who are generally completely trained and already concert veterans at eighteen.
Sounds pretty close to most of what Jeffylube said.

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#582045 - 10/28/04 04:43 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
valarking Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 2331
Loc: Dallas
As long as a pianist restrains themselves from being asses, most all are nice to watch.
The only exception is Michelangeli. He looks disgusted at the piano...

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#582046 - 10/28/04 09:26 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
Requiem Aeternam Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 1395
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
It doesn't matter how old you were when you made your first public performance, it says Richter was a master of keyboard at age 8, that is 'nuff said if you ask me. Josef Hoffman who had arguably the greatest technique of the 20th century didn't perform until he was 18 or later either, but that's not to say he wasnt an utter virtuoso before then, he was, he simply made an agreement not to perform before that time.
_________________________
"He who turns himself into a beast, gets rid of the pain of being a man."

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#582047 - 10/28/04 10:53 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
The thread has been highjacked by wannaBs bickering over the finer points of concert pianist idols - frothy opinions - interesting but as ephemeral as a passing breeze.

Thanks to NAK, F.Chopin, ryan, Goldberg, Badger, snap-apple and netizen for their valued contributions - even "LA plummer" panicworld for "hey .. what a stupid thread!"

Special tribute to ryan for his insight in saying of a concert pianist
"I think concert pianists need more than photographic memory. "Muscle" and aural memory is an absolute must, I would think. A solid memory is pretty much a necessity, and the ability to memorize fast doesn't hurt."

And to snap-apple for the perception that
"photographic memory ain't all it's cracked up to be".

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#582048 - 10/28/04 10:58 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
valarking Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 2331
Loc: Dallas
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
The thread has been highjacked by wannaBs bickering over the finer points of concert pianist idols - frothy opinions - interesting but as ephemeral as a passing breeze.[/b]
Well aren't you the witty intellectual.

:rolleyes:

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#582049 - 10/29/04 07:19 AM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
The cap fits.

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#582050 - 10/29/04 08:43 AM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
jeffylube Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 716
Loc: Weatherford, Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Requiem Aeternam:
It doesn't matter how old you were when you made your first public performance, it says Richter was a master of keyboard at age 8, that is 'nuff said if you ask me. [/b]
My point was that Richter started pursuing a concert career as a pianist late in his life. Later than most would say is necessary, as did Volodos. Whether he was truly a master at 8, who knows for sure. I've read on many different occasions that he started around 8, so if he became a master in 1 year, that could be so.

But all I was trying to make was a simple point that one of the requirements is NOT to start at 4-5 years old, as many will have you believe. Certainly helps I'm sure.

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#582051 - 10/29/04 08:48 AM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
ryan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 1995
Loc: Colorado
I believe Richter started at 4 or 5, or even younger. I don't see how it could be otherwise.

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#582052 - 10/29/04 08:52 AM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
jeffylube Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 716
Loc: Weatherford, Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
The thread has been highjacked by wannaBs bickering over the finer points of concert pianist idols - frothy opinions - interesting but as ephemeral as a passing breeze.[/b]
Hmm where to start. Well first of all your thread sucks. It's too subjective. But I wasn't going to say it until you said something rude in regards to me. And if we're "wannaBs", what are we wanting to be like?

Wasn't this thread about what it takes to be a concert pianist? Was Ryan and I not discussing/debating on whether one of the all time greats started late? Which in turn would rule out what is not necessarily needed? WHICH IN TURN IS IN LINE WITH WHAT YOUR THREAD WAS ABOUT?

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#582053 - 10/29/04 08:56 AM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
jeffylube Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 716
Loc: Weatherford, Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by ryan:
I believe Richter started at 4 or 5, or even younger. I don't see how it could be otherwise. [/b]
Ryan, btb doesn't want us to continue this discussion on his thread, so you can please just send me a link that proves what you've been saying? And you are not going to take into account what's in Schonberg's book, which is where I base much of my information, along with a couple other books?

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#582054 - 10/29/04 09:07 AM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
ryan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 1995
Loc: Colorado
Well, Schonberg does not say that Richter started lessons at 8, and I've never read that anywhere. However, Schonberg does say that Richter's first teacher was his father and that as a child Richter could play anything. Putting two and two together, I posit that Richter's father started teaching him from a very young age, instilling in him the technique and musicianship that he would need to follow in his father's footsteps in a musical career. My belief is strengthened by the the fact that Richter could read opera scores. Ever tried to do that? You need a strong technique, and not one that comes by accident.

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#582055 - 10/29/04 09:24 AM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18131
Loc: Victoria, BC
Re: Richter: FWIW

David Fanning writes in the latest edition of Groves:

[...] His first love was painting, which he learnt from his aunt, with whom he spent three years between the ages of four and seven,cut off from his parents by the Civil War.
On his return to Odessa in 1922 [age 7], Richter began to learn the piano and to compose, being largely self-taught in both areas. As a child he also wrote plays. His earliest musical passion was for opera. he enjoyed sight-reading from vocal scores at home, and for a while he had ambitions to become a conductor. From 1930 to 1932 he worked as accompanist at the House of Sailors in Odessa in order to supplement the family income, and then at the Odessa Philaharmonic. He made his solo debut playing Chopin at the age of 19, and in the following year became an accompanist at the Odessa Academic Opera and Ballet Theatre."
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#582056 - 10/29/04 09:26 AM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
jeffylube Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 716
Loc: Weatherford, Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by ryan:
Well, Schonberg does not say that Richter started lessons at 8, and I've never read that anywhere. However, Schonberg does say that Richter's first teacher was his father and that as a child Richter could play anything. Putting two and two together, I posit that Richter's father started teaching him from a very young age, instilling in him the technique and musicianship that he would need to follow in his father's footsteps in a musical career. My belief is strengthened by the the fact that Richter could read opera scores. Ever tried to do that? You need a strong technique, and not one that comes by accident. [/b]
Are you a lawyer? ;\) Because you keep trying to ignore my original point that started all of this. I never said that Richter didn't have musical training as a very young person. He did. What I've been saying is that from about 8-17 he was mainly interested in opera and conducting, not giving concerts and practicing piano for 5-8 hours a day like most established pianists did. During that time he did perform as a pianist at the opera house, so I'm sure that helped. But it wasn't until 17 that he decided he wanted to pursue a career as a pianist and thus lived his life with that goal in mind...practicing night and day, going to Neuhaus, and giving his first public recital at 19.

All I'm looking at is the fact that if someone has the talent and decided to make a career in piano in their mid teens, Richter and Volodos might give them hope, when everyone else would say it's too late.

I bet if you took 10 non-musician people in a room, and asked who at one time took piano lessons in their life, probably 7 or 8 would raise their hands. The VAST majority of people I know that don't like music or piano, at one time tried piano lessons. So if one of these persons decided at 15 to be a concert pianist, maybe they would be help by those boring lessons they took briefly that they don't remember.

I'm sure Richter had very good musical education at a young age, but the bottom line I think with him is that he has "it", so it didn't really matter when he started. It would be a shame if someone that was 14, 15 years old also had "it" and wanted to be a professional pianist but was always told that they didn't start early enough.

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#582057 - 10/29/04 11:06 AM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
ryan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 1995
Loc: Colorado
So, the reason I am beating a dead horse is that I really do believe it is advantageous to study piano as a child, even if you drop it for a (sometimes long) period of time.

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#582058 - 10/29/04 11:10 AM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
valarking Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 2331
Loc: Dallas
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
The cap fits. [/b]
I'm sorry, but we don't have room for anymore pseudo-intellectual BS in this forum.

Bye bye now...

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#582059 - 10/29/04 11:22 AM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
Orlando Gibbons Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 848
Loc: CA
 Quote:
Well, Schonberg does not say that Richter started lessons at 8, and I've never read that anywhere.
Richter says Richter started at 8. See Sviatoslav Richter, Notebooks and Conversations, by Bruno Monsaingeon, published by Princeton University Press.
_________________________
"See?! The Cliffs of Insanity!"

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#582060 - 10/29/04 12:12 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
jeffylube Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 716
Loc: Weatherford, Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by ryan:
So, the reason I am beating a dead horse is that I really do believe it is advantageous to study piano as a child, even if you drop it for a (sometimes long) period of time. [/b]
Totally agree. Just saying that it's not a hopeless situation for 15 year olds that didn't study much as a small child if they want to become a successful pianist. Just gotta be good.

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#582061 - 10/29/04 01:16 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
ryan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 1995
Loc: Colorado
 Quote:
Originally posted by Orlando Gibbons:
 Quote:
Well, Schonberg does not say that Richter started lessons at 8, and I've never read that anywhere.
Richter says Richter started at 8. See Sviatoslav Richter, Notebooks and Conversations, by Bruno Monsaingeon, published by Princeton University Press. [/b]
Yes, but Richter lied or stretched the truth about a great many things regarding himself. I don't believe it for a second.

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#582062 - 10/29/04 01:18 PM Re: What makes a concert pianist?
jeffylube Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 716
Loc: Weatherford, Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by ryan:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Orlando Gibbons:
 Quote:
Well, Schonberg does not say that Richter started lessons at 8, and I've never read that anywhere.
Richter says Richter started at 8. See Sviatoslav Richter, Notebooks and Conversations, by Bruno Monsaingeon, published by Princeton University Press. [/b]
Yes, but Richter lied or stretched the truth about a great many things regarding himself. I don't believe it for a second. [/b]
You also don't believe me. \:\( \:D

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