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#5849 - 10/11/07 01:45 PM What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Cella Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 1
Loc: Australia
Hey

.. i just want to know what pianos are known for being really, really good, you know the kind that are used in concert halls, that sort of thing.

Thanks \:\)
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#5850 - 10/11/07 01:54 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
At least in the United States, the statistics show that Steinway & Sons was chosen by 98% of soloists during the 2005-2006 concert season.

Here's the link:

http://www.steinway.com/steinway/artist_roster/2005-2006box_score.pdf
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PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#5851 - 10/11/07 01:56 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
Are you piano shopping or just seeking info?

Please advise.

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#5852 - 10/11/07 02:25 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Clavierman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/01/07
Posts: 63
Loc: New York, NY
Cella,

Your subject line (regarding sound, touch and longevity) and the body of your post (usage in concert halls) are not necessarily the same question.

Pianomadam -- could you explain what types of financial and other incentives and inducements enter into the decisions that have lead to such dominance of Steinway & Sons in concert halls. I suspect there is more to the decision than merely comparing and contrasting a Steinway D to the myriad other choices available to a concert hall's search committee.

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#5853 - 10/11/07 02:29 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
Clavierman:

If a concert artist wanted a non-Steinway piano, do you really think the local X dealer would not be happy to supply the piano? How long do you think it would take for them to deliver the piano, free of charge (probably less than an hour?)...to get some exposure?

Regarding your other question, ask the concert halls, not me.
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PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#5854 - 10/11/07 02:35 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
jollyroger Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 848
Loc: Houston, TX
".......could you explain what types of financial and other incentives and inducements enter into the decisions that have lead to such dominance of Steinway & Sons in concert halls."

Before the great World Wars, it's my understanding that both M&H and Steinway were basically "neck and neck" with regard to quality and market presence. Due to shortages that world wars create, both companies suffered and barely survived. After World War II, Steinway made a brilliant marketing decision and began giving away pianos (primarily to well known artists and concert halls). Hence, they captured a dominant market share and virtually became a household word in the decades to follow.
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#5855 - 10/11/07 02:37 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10385
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Here we go again.

PianoMadam, your selective misuse of facts is really tedious, not to mention tendentious. Dealers who continually flirt with the line that separates selling from providing information risk two things. The first is that they risk bringing the brand they represent into disrepute on the forum. You certainly do that for Steinway among most people on this forum with functioning brains. The second risk is that you will be moderated.
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#5856 - 10/11/07 02:41 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
Jollyroger: Please quote your source for "its my understanding that..."

PianoDad: How am I misusing facts? Has what I said offended you? How so? Statistics are statistics...they don't lie.
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PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#5857 - 10/11/07 02:45 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10385
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Please look up the word tendentious.

You know as well as I that the C&A program cannot be read as a pure signal of quality yet you continually sweep all controversy away with the proverbial wave of the hand, as though the 'fact' (however measured) speaks for itself. You have obviously never read that wonderful old book, "How to Lie with Statistics."


Cella,

Many pianos that are reknowned for their quality (measured in many ways) often are NOT in concert halls in any great number.
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#5858 - 10/11/07 02:47 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
I have never seen a poster harm the Steinway name more than Pianomadam has.

The only explanation I can fathom is Pianomadam is a sock puppet of a competing brand.

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#5859 - 10/11/07 02:50 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10385
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Now there's a thought!
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#5860 - 10/11/07 02:54 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Sir Lurksalot Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 1244
Poor Cella. A first-time poster with a simple question, and no answer yet. Here's my layman's quick answer. You'll find that most concert halls use one or more of the following, with Steinway and Yamaha being the most common. Someone with more first-hand knowledge will hopefully confirm and/or correct this list, and maybe add a word about European halls. There are a few other brands that are just as good - but rarely used by concert halls as far as I know.

Steinway
Bosendorfer
Yamaha C7 or S series
Kawai (Shigeru series)
Fazioli
Mason and Hamlin

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#5861 - 10/11/07 02:55 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Clavierman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/01/07
Posts: 63
Loc: New York, NY
Pianomadam -- Is it really "the local [Steinway] dealer" that makes it financially possible to supply Steinways to 98% of those concert halls, or Steinway & Sons itself?

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#5862 - 10/11/07 03:02 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10385
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Hey Sir, it's not so simple a question. Cella's second sentence

 Quote:
you know the kind that are used in concert halls, that sort of thing.
conditions the main question,

 Quote:
i just want to know what pianos are known for being really, really good,
So, if you give the short list of makes that dominate concert halls (oh, and what counts as a concert hall????), have you also given a list of all the pianos that are "really, really good." ?

As you say, there are many fine brands that have little presence in major concert venues, though they may be heard in smaller and less commercial spaces. but then you have undermined the implicit assumption buried within Cella's question.

When PianoMadam jumps on the dominant Steinway C&A presence like a fly on fresh manure the fireworks are predictable. :p
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#5863 - 10/11/07 03:06 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4978
Loc: boston north
RE: At least in the United States, the statistics show that Steinway & Sons was chosen by 98% of soloists during the 2005-2006 concert season.

--------------

Steinway is chosen because that is what is available in most concert halls by S/S marketing, Pianomadam. Period.

I hope that others that are reading now and later realize that this is just spin on buying a Steinway. Are they nice? Yes. Does what they present for the concert stage have to do with what they offer for the home piano...maybe/maybe not...read below.

Just because a concert pianist likes to play a Steinway Concert Grand within the concert hall, it does not mean that there are not comparable pianos in the 6 ft range for your home that would be just as satisfying as what a Steinway 6 ft grand might be, or even something BETTER suiting for your taste, once they are explored.

What you read from PM was Steinway 'marketing' Steinway.

Search these pianos:
Steingraeber
Bosendorfer
Mason and Hamlin
Bluthner
Forester
C. Bechstein
Grotrian
Estonia
Schimmel
Yamaha
Kawaii
Charles Walters
edit - didnt mean to leave off Sauter!

....and a slew of others in no particular order. Just do a search from the above page.

Many of them are also suited for the Concert Hall as well as their 6 ft pianos (etc) for the home.

Do I like many Steinways? Yes.

But after exploring other makes "I" might choose another for the concert hall, and for my home.

LL
_________________________
"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."

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#5864 - 10/11/07 03:13 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
AD Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 193
In Europe Bechstein and Bluthner are used too.


P.S. Welcome to the forum Cella.

P.P.S.
Amazing with all the dealers about that the Steigerman (Premium Series - naturally)hasn't been subtly woven into the thread yet. Somewhere in China one is probably being used in a school concert hall
;\) \:o \:o ;\)
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A medley of extemporanea;
And love is a thing that can never go wrong,
And I am Marie of Romania.

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#5865 - 10/11/07 03:18 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
"You know as well as I that the C&A program cannot be read as a pure signal of quality..."

These statistics have nothing to do with the C&A program. Notice that it says "soloists"


"Many pianos that are reknowned for their quality (measured in many ways) often are NOT in concert halls in any great number"

---That's correct. But the soloists still don't choose them! Isn't that amazing! Listen, I'm not saying that there is not other fine pianos out there that are equal to Steinway, all things considered. I'm just saying that when it comes to distinguishing the nuances of sound and touch, there is none other that is more qualified at doing so than the professional pianist.
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PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#5866 - 10/11/07 03:20 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
"In Europe Bechstein and Bluthner are used too"

---do you have documented evidence of this, outside of your own observation? I'm not harping on you, but just trying to get the facts straight.
_________________________
PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#5867 - 10/11/07 03:35 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10385
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
You are simply touting a prepared Steinway advertisement.

We've been over this in so many other threads. All you ever do is repeat prepared Steinway advertisements as though they are fact, and you ignore all the manipulations that went into making those advertisements.

By selecting which venue qualifies as a concert hall you can generate any percentage you want to. That's one of the basic rules of 'How to Lie with Statistics.'

Your use of the word "choose" is a great example of deception. If one is a Steinway Artist one is no longer free to choose on a case by case basis.

And if a concert hall already has a piano in it, it would take a mighty finicky 'artist' to overrule the venue and 'order out' instead, especially if they had to pick up the tab themselves.

At some risk, I'm now going to behave like the departed Larry.

PianoMadam, you are simply a shill. If you were any good at it, this might be more fun.
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#5868 - 10/11/07 03:47 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
"If one is a Steinway Artist one is no longer free to choose on a case by case basis"

Again, this is not about Steinway & Sons Concert & Artist program. This is about soloists who perform at the major concert halls across the country. By the way, yes they are free...they just won't be a concert artist for Steinway anymore if they do choose another piano. Would you expect Tiger Woods to work for Nike if he started wearing Adidas sneakers?


"And if a concert hall already has a piano in it, it would take a mighty finicky 'artist' to overrule the venue and 'order out' instead, especially if they had to pick up the tab themselves"

---this is conjecture. I work in the piano business and I know how eager Steinway competitors are to get recognition for their product. Believe me, Steinway competitors would not charge the artist.


"PianoMadam, you are simply a shill. If you were any good at it, this might be more fun"

--Great to hear from you, PianoDad. I normally enjoy your posts. I have nothing against you despite this little spat. I hope you stick around.
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PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#5869 - 10/11/07 03:53 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10385
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
 Quote:
I hope you stick around.
Gee, thanks. \:D
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#5870 - 10/11/07 03:57 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
cm2872 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 221
 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
...
Your use of the word "choose" is a great example of deception. If one is a Steinway Artist one is no longer free to choose on a case by case basis.

And if a concert hall already has a piano in it, it would take a mighty finicky 'artist' to overrule the venue and 'order out' instead, especially if they had to pick up the tab themselves.

... [/b]
This is a great point! Pianomadam implies that soloists are offered several brands to choose from at every venue, which I doubt is a reality.

I personally witnessed a Steinway artist show up for a concert and perform on a new M&H CC concert grand. When asked if he wanted to decline playing it since he was a Steinway artist (after he had a few hours to rehearse on it), he energetically replied "No!"

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#5871 - 10/11/07 04:04 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
J. Mark Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1323
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
...Again, this is not about Steinway & Sons Concert & Artist program. This is about soloists who perform at the major concert halls across the country. By the way, yes they are free...they just won't be a concert artist for Steinway anymore if they do choose another piano. [/b]
Oh, yeah? Tell me this, if you know. Are there halls where Steinway provides pianos and service in exchange for exclusivity? Meaning, if you want to play those halls, you play a Steinway.

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#5872 - 10/11/07 04:33 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
GoatRider Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/07
Posts: 460
Loc: Maple Grove, MN
popcorn.gif
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Kawai RX-2 #2555861 in Satin Walnut
Kawai ES6

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#5873 - 10/11/07 04:45 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
I saw Angela Hewwit last weekend in Orange County California perform Bach's WTC Book 1 and 2.

Before the first concert Friday there was a 1-hour lecture given by a local speaker.
On stage was a Hamburg Steinway D that was used for demonstrating tuning temperaments.

When the lecture was over we cleared the hall prior to the concert.

When we entered the hall for the concert the Steinway had been pushed out of sight and there was a 9-foot Fazioli that Ms. Hewitt performed Book 1 on.

I was delighted to see a crack in the Steinway monopoly.
The Fazioli was sublime.

The next day I attended a master class that Ms. Hewitt conducted. On stage was TWO Hamburg Ds.

Then Sunday Ms. Hewitt again performed Book 2 on the stunning Fazioli.

This is an example of a top artist rejecting not only a Steinway but two HAMBURG Steinway Ds in favor of another brand.

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#5874 - 10/11/07 04:53 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
I. Bruton Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 861
Loc: Raleigh
Pianomadam, you have suggested that those artists who choose to play an instrument other than Steinway are then no longer allowed to be called "Steinway Artists"?

I believe it was Emanuel Ax who has performend on a Yamaha CFIIIS the last few times he has been in Raleigh. It was reported in the Raleigh News & Observer that many artists, including Mr. Ax chose the CFIIIS because the Steinway D was in disrepair. Though the Yamaha was already in the venue, the Steinway Dealer was less than two miles away. Why didn't they just borrow another D?The Steinway has since been replaced and is once again the primary instrument for the venue, but nevertheless, Mr. Ax is still on the Artist Roster for Steinway.
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Pianos owned: Yamaha C3
Pianos at work: Yamaha P22, Kawai K3, Steinway B

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#5875 - 10/11/07 04:57 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
I. Bruton Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 861
Loc: Raleigh
Cella,

In my area, these brands would be most common on concert halls and other performance venues of respectable size.

Steinway
Baldwin
Yamaha
Bosendorfer
_________________________
I. Bruton
B.A. Music Composition
M.M. Music Education
High School Choral Director
Church Music Director
Pianos owned: Yamaha C3
Pianos at work: Yamaha P22, Kawai K3, Steinway B

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#5876 - 10/11/07 05:48 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
BoseEric Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 731
Loc: Fairfield County, CT
Where is your store, PianoMadame and how long have you been selling Steinways?
_________________________
RPT. In the business: Feurich pianos, Neupert harpsichords, Hidrau benches, piano technician

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#5877 - 10/11/07 06:50 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Sir Lurksalot Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 1244
Oops - I never should have left Baldwin off my initial list. In fact I recently attended a recital that was performed on a magnificent 9-footer.

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#5878 - 10/11/07 07:18 PM Re: What are reknown pianos for sound, touch and longevity?
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10490
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
 Quote:
Originally posted by kenny:
I have never seen a poster harm the Steinway name more than Pianomadam has.

The only explanation I can fathom is Pianomadam is a sock puppet of a competing brand. [/b]
Kenny, I am told Pianomadam works for Jordan-Kitts. My sources have reason to be certain.
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