Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Disagreement with my teacher about the Chopin etudes

WiseIdiot is in fact just fanning the breeze ... indulging in petty bravado to attract attention ... only a clown would talk about
tackling Chopin’s Black Key Etude Opus 10-5 with such casual ease ... underlying an abysmal lack of understanding ... even upstaging a teacher who, to say the very least, has made it clear that the chappie is NOT READY (and never will be).

NO ONE on this Forum can play this Etude at the requisite tempo ... requiring the RH to play a sequence of 480 notes at 12 notes per second
(m1-40 in 40 seconds) ... a super-human requirement ... one even tends to wonder whether Chopin needed to call up his friend, the legendary Liszt to present the Etude at it’s full potential ... how then can a pretentious beginner presume to want to stand up to the plate?

We all like the Black Key Etude ... but please!! ...

If you haven't It would definitely help to let us know what you've been working on recently. Maybe others know more about you, but without any other information i can't tell if the problem is due to your teacher or your unrealistic expectations.

If you had this all figured out, why do you need a teacher? If you are not going to take your teacher's direction, then fire the teacher, and learn pro-se, or find another teacher that agrees with you. I am a legal aid lawyer, and an old timer, and I am used to clients with unrealistic expectations saying, "so and so says I can do this'" or the "internet site says etc." My response is to go hire "so and so" who says what you want to hear. Go find you a teacher that thinks you can learn that piece and go practice!

What do "unrealistic expectations have to do with anything?"

Everything!

Unrealistic expectations need taming not glorifying.

Nothing speaks more importantly to our integrity than facing the reality of a situation.

If you find yourself being defensive, "yes, but...", "no, but...", "however..." or explaining, explaining, explaining...means to me that reality is not yet in your corner.

Someone who is already there does not need to make explanations or excuses or complaints about not being understood by their teacher.

Self actualized, or not self actualized? That is the question. "Unrealistic expections" are a "delusional diversion" that inhibit progress from taking place.

Those are good points, Betty, but we don't, after all, know whether the OP's expectations are unrealistic.

Nor do I think btb has any basis for saying that he is not ready "and never will be." That "requisite" tempo may be requisite to an impressive professional performance, but it has no relevance at all to the amateur who gains so much from playing it at any speed.

I consider maximum speed to be a by-product of the value derived from study of a Chopin etude. Some of us work on them, revisit them and learn new things from them continuously over the course of a lifetime! If maximum speed were a short-term goal, and its achievement were a criterion for learning the etudes, no amateur would even make the attempt.

Steven

That's it exactly! Sometimes a kid will surprise me when they come with something that is clearly a challenge for them. Every once in a while it it totally out of the question, but we devise a plan to get them to the point where they can play it eventually. I dangle it as a carrot to do the things I know they will need in order to play it.

I recently had a student who was at the Intermediate level, playing Chopin Preludes No.4, 20, etc., Clementi & Kuhlau Sonatinas and Bach Little Preludes. He wanted to learn the first movement of the Moonlight sonata. Mind you, this is one person who looks at a key signature that has more than 2 accidentals and freaks, so I pointed out to him that the Moonlight was 4 sharps. Didn't bat an eye. And so he did it, and while it was a fairly good first time playing something at this level, I didn't let him play this for WMTA auditions, because I knew there were things that he simply wasn't ready to tackle with it. But he loves it, and why woudl I withhold that? No damage was done, and he learned some things about voicing chords. And now he has no right to complain when I give him a piece with 4 accidentals :p

I agree with Steven's points about the printed requisite tempo not having much to do with the OP's case. In addition, sometimes the speed Chopin gives on the score is faster than what is needed for an effective performance.

I'm not particularly familiar with 10-5, so I don't know, but certainly 10-1 doesn't need to be at 176 to be impressive, and the first movement of Chopin's F minor concerto is hardly, if ever, performed to the tempo marking of 138.

As for the OP, it seems he has a pretty good idea of where he is, ability-wise. If he takes it at a "near-comfortable" pace, and take care not to generate unneeded tension, certainly there will be improvement in dexterity. As using this etude as a developmental exercise seems to be his main goal, and not, say, performing it up to speed in two months, I don't really see a problem with it.

sotto voce,

Yes, you are right to call me on that, we don't know what the circumstances like the principles involved do and I am supposing this as part of the scenario to caution about misconceptions and dysfunctional reasoning. There is so much of that going around and it is so easy to disappear from the scene rather than to work it out through negotiation to mutual satisfaction. If that can be done at all.

I was trying to cover the base of being "off base" in our expectations which can make for confusion and difficulty when the teacher and student differ greatly.

Communication about difficult things really gets "off base" when one or both of the communicants is being unrealistic or the situation has turned into a "power play" instead of a communication process to arrive at a decision.

Per Steven - "I've read a number of opinions that if one cannot read through an entire piece slowly, it's a sign that it's too hard to learn. I'm not sure precisely what that means (e.g., How slowly? HS or HT? "Correct" fingering or anything goes?), but I disagree in principle."

Hi Steven -

I'm not surprised that someone questioned my statement that the student should at least be able to read through the etude slowly before beginning to study it in earnest. The student who started this thread apparently had been looking at the score of the etude for a few months - but could still (by his own admission) barely play through the first line. This tells me that 1) the etude may be too difficult for him at this stage of his development, 2) his music reading skills are weak, or 3) both. With persistence and weeks of hard work he may be able to learn and play the piece slowly by memory. More power to him. But perhaps he would be better off learning other less challenging pieces by Chopin and continuing to develop his reading skills. Thus when he ultimately tackles the etude it will hopefully be easier for him to learn.

In general - I would tend to agree with you - that being able to read through a piece should not necessarily be a prerequisite for learning it. I've found, however, that reading through a new piece a few times helps me gain an overview of the composition and the sections that are going to require the most work. And yes, I sometimes stop dead in my tracks during the initial read-through and simply skip ahead to the next section. Reading through the composition also helps me decide whether I really want to invest the time and energy required to learn it.

Are you stating that nobody on this forum has the technical capability of playing 12 notes per second for 40 seconds? Or a particular sequence of 480 notes in 40 seconds?

BTB, I don't know what you mean by pretentious beginner. There is no pretense in my desire to learn the etude, even if I can't play it a tempo. I have been playing piano for 10 years, but developing my finger dexterity has only been a priority for the past 1 year. Accordingly, I have continuously been doing Hanon and recently started doing it in other keys.

Wise Idiot, if this study is so important to you, what about asking your teacher what skills you need to have before tackling it in accordance to her standards for you, and then what you have to do in order to reach those skills? If she creates a kind of 'program' for you which has the goals of being able to eventually tackling that study, would you be willing to go for it? Just a wild thought.

It also depends on the piece. I have to agree we Steven that some parts of masterworks are (at least for me) unreadable, where one needs to dissect a measure, for example, and practice it to have it flow and make sense. This particular etude, which is the one we are talking about, can be read with not great difficulty, for me at least, at a very slow tempo, all the way through, HS. WI should, imo, be able to do this with this particular etude, without too much stumbling, to see if it is a feasable task for him to take on this piece.

This is not to say that a piece where you cannot read all the way through is unlearnable. Like what Carey says, reading a piece through will help to determine what is within ones means or not, even if it means skippng some sections or stumbling through some measures. But not with the "Black Key" Etude neccessarily. It is a more straightforward, linear piece, again JMHO.

Forgive the bold pronouncements ... but, by your own admission you have cheapened yourself with the modest name of Wise Idiot ... but I would respectfully question the Wise in view of your unrealistic flights of fancy over the Chopin Black Key Etude 10-5 ... largely, it would appear, because of an inability after 10 years, to get up to speed (thus the Hanon exercises ... which are taboo in my school).

You’ve put a picture of your "Everest" on the wall (Etude 10-5) ... no harm in providing a focus ... but it is pretentious to give the
impression that you’ve already bought your mountain boots ... and to underline your serious intentions, are already up to Camp I.

Questioning your piano teacher for wanting to steer you off the Black Key Etude should not be allowed to fester into mud-slinging ... please don’t see a seeming harsh call as a lack of
confidence in your potential ... teachers necessarily have to maintain the motivation of their students by finding progressive "carrot" music within their scope ... making sure that unrealistic expectations don’t "break the camel’s back".

IMHO this is why your piano teacher balked at the Black Key Etude. But let everybody check their skills by tackling the
FIRST 2 MEASURES including both hand roles ...
can anybody toss off the 24 RH notes and 6 LH chords in

2 seconds (Richter) ?
4 seconds ... anyone?
8 seconds ... someone, surely!! ?

first 2 measures of Black Key Etude

One of the biggest problem with learning a piece too early is that you will not be able to master the piece no matter how much you work on it... it may be years until you have the proper technique to actually play the piece right, and you just have to put up with your imperfection until then.

I learned the 3rd movement of moonlight sonata in my 3rd year. i insisted on the piece against the teacher's advice.. I did play it okay, just not great, but I was frustrated about how I couldn't play it well consistenly.

Also about those dream pieces.. I am starting to play those pieces i used to dream of playing.. its funny back then those pieces seems like a big goal, a monument, but now that I am close to it, it feels more like an another passing point.. its best not to get obsessed over those pieces..because like so many things in like, its not going to be anything like what you expect it to be.

I don't know how much of this applies to you.. again it really helps to know what kind of repritore you've been working on.

Also instead of complaining about it, there's probably a more constructive way to deal with this.. like talking to your teacher about it and what you're lacking, as others has mentioned. Has the teacher been helpful up to this point? if he/she was, then why would you want to destroy your relationship with your teacher over one piece??, if not why are you still studying with that teacher?

Just to know what is possible, here's Marc-André Hamelin playing all three Chopin Etudes in A minor at the same time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhgOh8mmefQ

n.b. It is an amateur video, and he starts playing at around 1:30, after a bit of barely audible banter with the audience... but it's definitely worth the wait

Michael B.

Dear Wise Idiot -

If you are really motivated, why don't you just learn the etude on your own? Why do you need "permission" from your teacher?? And why did you feel the need to ask other forum members their opinion about this issue?? Playing the Black Key Etude will NOT put undue stress on your fingers - but it may tax you in other ways. The sooner you give it a shot, the sooner you'll know if you are capable of learning it. If you can't hack it, you can still develop your finger dexterity through intermediate level Czerny studies (which are easy to learn and fun to play). Just get to it.

There are multiple pianists on this forum that could do so. Off the top of my head, Brendan, Thracozaag, Kriesler definitely can. I would also go so far as to say that nearly all conservatory students can, including me.

In fact, the Czerny etude from Op.740 that I'm playing right now is considerably faster in terms of notes per second.

Here's just one of many examples of the first two measures in under 2 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0V1rr-t48w

The big question Pro is ... do you have the skills to dash off the first 2 measures in 2 seconds? Forgive me if some of us are not so gullible as to credit the reported skills of the likes on Brendan and Kreisler (with due respect).

Yes, I do. And I'm nothing special - there are plenty of better pianists than me on this forum who could do so. Honestly, if you're talking about just the first two measures (which I think is silly, btw), it might take an hour of practice at the most for any piano major. Note that I'm not saying I could play the entire thing as well as Pollini (I can't). But the first two measures in under 2 seconds? No problem.

As for Brendan and Kreisler, they are both faculty at universities (and extremely good pianists), and Koji is an active concert pianist. All three of them have played far more difficult repertoire than that etude.