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#590209 - 07/07/08 03:33 PM Why do people say...
hotWings Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 140
Loc: MI
Why do people say that "you can't develop technique from playing Liszt, you must already have it". Does that mean it is impossible to develop technique from playing Liszt if you were a beginner or intermediate pianist? Is it saying that you can't progress to an advanced level from a beginner or intermediate level if you play Liszt? Even if you had really slow dexterity, could you progress as you play more Liszt, Alkan pieces?

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#590210 - 07/07/08 04:05 PM Re: Why do people say...
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Do people say that? I've never heard it before.

You gotta walk before you run. Technique is built incrementally through progressively difficult repertoire generally. At any stage, sufficient technique is required to serve as the scaffolding for the next level.

In broadest terms, virtuoso pieces require an advanced technique; difficult pieces require at least an intermediate-level technique; intermediate-level pieces require at least a beginner's technique.

The original statement as regards Liszt (or anybody else) only makes sense in terms of sweeping generalizations about the difficulty of a composer's entire oeuvre.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#590211 - 07/07/08 04:20 PM Re: Why do people say...
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
And it's not even totally true of Liszt. He wrote many worthwhile intermediate level pieces as well his technical showpieces. Try leaning some of the charming carol arrangements from his Christmas Tree Suite.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#590212 - 07/07/08 04:39 PM Re: Why do people say...
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by hotWings:
Why do people say that "you can't develop technique from playing Liszt, you must already have it". [/b]
I think you're probably taking the statment too literally. I would take it to mean that since most of Liszt's works require virtuoso technique, one has to already have a good technique before playing most of his works.

I wouldn't take the statement(wherever you heard it)to mean that one's technique would not improve by playing Liszt.

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#590213 - 07/07/08 06:11 PM Re: Why do people say...
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
I think you can learn technique by playing Liszt, but it's a bit like learning vocabulary by reading F. Scott Fitzgerald. (Not knowing the vocabulary could slow your reading down so much as to make the process overly tedious and frustrating.)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#590214 - 07/07/08 10:26 PM Re: Why do people say...
Age_of_Anxiety Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 273
Loc: home
Well, you can't just go from playing all black key twinkle twinkle or Mary had a little lamb to playing virtuosic Liszt and expect to be able to learn the piece, or that learning it will bring your technique to that level. It needs to be more gradual than that.


 Quote:
Originally posted by Kreisler:
I think you can learn technique by playing Liszt, but it's a bit like learning vocabulary by reading F. Scott Fitzgerald. (Not knowing the vocabulary could slow your reading down so much as to make the process overly tedious and frustrating.) [/b]
We had to read Gatsby this year

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#590215 - 07/08/08 12:46 AM Re: Why do people say...
Fleeting Visions Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1501
Loc: Champaign, IL
I think that Liszt is great for polishing off a well-developed technique. I wouldn't want someone who wasn't ready for it playing it, but if you're at the level, it could be a very good growing experience.
_________________________
Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon

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#590216 - 07/08/08 11:13 AM Re: Why do people say...
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
This idea is not at all farfetched, in
my view. For example, I believe that
the Chopin waltzes, preludes, and noctures
are pieces that you cannot develop technique
by playing. The reason is that these were
written as salon pieces, essentially,
pianistic fluff for the entertainment
dilettantes, and therefore they lack the
substance of serious compositions.
These are actually pieces for an expert,
not novices, as they require superb technique
in order to play well. And yet, in a seeming
paradox, they are not good vehicles for
developing expert technique, since,
inherently, they are fluff, not serious compositions.

I haven't played much Liszt, but in retrospect
I think that this may also be true of his
pieces, in general. They require expert
technique to play well, but, paradoxically,
they themselves don't seem to be good vehicles
for the development of expert technique, the
reason apparently being that they are
primarily virtuosic show pieces only
and lack the substance of serious
compositions.

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#590217 - 07/08/08 11:26 AM Re: Why do people say...
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I said it before and I'll say it again:
 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
The original statement as regards Liszt (or anybody else) only makes sense in terms of sweeping generalizations about the difficulty of a composer's entire oeuvre.[/b]
Of course, that applies equally to risibly naive categorical generalizations about "serious compositions."

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#590218 - 07/08/08 11:39 AM Re: Why do people say...
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gyro:
For example, I believe that
the Chopin waltzes, preludes, and noctures
are pieces that you cannot develop technique
by playing. The reason is that these were
written as salon pieces, essentially,
pianistic fluff for the entertainment
dilettantes, and therefore they lack the
substance of serious compositions.
[/b]
Try playing a few. See how fluffy they are.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#590219 - 07/08/08 12:51 PM Re: Why do people say...
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8482
Loc: Ohio, USA
my teacher once mentioned that each of Liszt etudes is not specific on one technique only, unlike Chopin etudes. therefore, it implies that you would confront more than one technique in any of Liszt etudes. it's not that you cannot learn techniques from Liszt etudes, but that you cannot focus on one specific techniques at one time by playing that, while each Chopin etude focuses mainly on one technique in one etude and therefore you would have focused practice for a specific problem.

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