Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#59233 - 07/13/05 11:08 AM Simply HORRIFIC!
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10341
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
I opened up my July issue of Music Trades and happened to glance down and there, without any warning was one of the most horrifying images I've ever seen. It was a picture of Piano World members who tookk the Mason & Hamlin tour!

Look guys, if I want to upset by such ugly kinds of images I'll open up my local paper!

Also in Music Trades was a detailed article about the new Prambergers and Remingtons. Also VERY interesting statistic on imports of musical instruments into the USA. Copmpared to last year China is way down and you'll never guess who's up!

I'll start another thread when I get a chance.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

Top
(ads 568) Hailun Pianos

piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#59234 - 07/13/05 12:09 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
ChatNoir Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 1469
Loc: Encino, California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Cohen:


Look guys, if I want to upset by such ugly kinds of images I'll open up my local paper!

[/b]
Now listen here, we are SERIOUS musicians here, NOT some kind of beauty objects. And furthermore, beauty is only skin deep (though I suspect that some of us are born inside-out).
Maybe I'll join the next tour, that'll make pictures that will send your magazine flying!!

So what country is up in sales? Don't tell me it's Estonia..... \:D
_________________________
Some men are music lovers. Others make love without it.

Top
#59235 - 07/13/05 12:36 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10341
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
 Quote:
Originally posted by ChatNoir:
So what country is up in sales? Don't tell me it's Estonia..... \:D [/b]
The question is what countries are up?

In verticals...China -45%; Japan + 70%; Indonesia + 214% ; Korea -7.2%.

In grands... China -14%; Japan + 12%; Indonesia +70%; Korea - 19.3%.

No stats on Europe.

Gee, isn't it about time for an Estonia dealer to bump-up or start a new post on how great Estonia's are? \:D
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

Top
#59236 - 07/13/05 12:58 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Christopher P. Smith Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 1306
Loc: Timonium, MD
I guess this should show everyone how well Yamaha and Kawai are doing in Japan and Indo.
_________________________
Representing Yamaha, Story and Clark, and other fine instruments
Menchey Music Service
Associate Member of PTG
Serving Central Pennsylvania and the Greater Baltimore Area

Top
#59237 - 07/13/05 02:07 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10341
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Christopher P. Smith:
I guess this should show everyone how well Yamaha and Kawai are doing in Japan and Indo. [/b]
And/Or Samick.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

Top
#59238 - 07/13/05 02:10 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Christopher P. Smith Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 1306
Loc: Timonium, MD
Pardon my ignorance.

What exactly is samick building in Japan now?
_________________________
Representing Yamaha, Story and Clark, and other fine instruments
Menchey Music Service
Associate Member of PTG
Serving Central Pennsylvania and the Greater Baltimore Area

Top
#59239 - 07/13/05 02:15 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10341
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Nothing. But they have been building in Indonesia for over 20 years. They were the 1st, Yamaha and Kawai followed.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

Top
#59240 - 07/13/05 02:34 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4288
Loc: Cincinnati
I thought their 7' K&C Millenium was pretty nice. Is it Korean or Indonesian built?
_________________________
Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'

Top
#59241 - 07/13/05 02:40 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Christopher P. Smith Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 1306
Loc: Timonium, MD
Ah, sorry, I forgot that Indo was in this discussion. Pardon me again!

We have a Skg 530S K&C remaining in stock and its a sweet little piano. I love the touch of it, actually.
_________________________
Representing Yamaha, Story and Clark, and other fine instruments
Menchey Music Service
Associate Member of PTG
Serving Central Pennsylvania and the Greater Baltimore Area

Top
#59242 - 07/13/05 03:22 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
ChatNoir Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 1469
Loc: Encino, California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Cohen:


Gee, isn't it about time for an Estonia dealer to bump-up or start a new post on how great Estonia's are? \:D

[/b]
AAAAWWWW, you're just jealous. And the upswing from Asia must mean that more pianos are being purveyed for the impecunious.
_________________________
Some men are music lovers. Others make love without it.

Top
#59243 - 07/13/05 03:52 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
teachum Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/19/04
Posts: 2913
Loc: idaho
 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Cohen:
 Quote:
Originally posted by ChatNoir:
So what country is up in sales? Don't tell me it's Estonia..... \:D [/b]
The question is what countries are up?

In verticals...China -45%; Japan + 70%; Indonesia + 214% ; Korea -7.2%.

In grands... China -14%; Japan + 12%; Indonesia +70%; Korea - 19.3%.

No stats on Europe.

Gee, isn't it about time for an Estonia dealer to bump-up or start a new post on how great Estonia's are? \:D [/b]
Well - I'm not a dealer, but everyone knows they are great! \:D \:D Why doesn't everyone just *get over it?*
_________________________
You will be 10 years older, ten years from now, no matter what you do - so go for it!

Estonia #6141 in Satin Mahogany

Top
#59244 - 07/13/05 05:49 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
byebye Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/03
Posts: 1426
There were 388 pianos built in Estonia last year. At least, I think I read that somewhere. It is doubtful that the number of units imported into the US has changed one year to the next. The dollar value probably has gone up considerably.

Larry,

Good to see you back.

Does that mean that the pianos have been imported but may be unsold? That would change everything. For example, it could mean that there are many Japanese or Indonesian pianos sitting in stock, unsold. Or it could mean something else.

Top
#59245 - 07/13/05 05:51 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
byebye Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/03
Posts: 1426
And what about the figures from Europe?

Top
#59246 - 07/13/05 06:33 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Does that mean that the pianos have been imported but may be unsold?[/b]

It means precisely that. Samicks imports the first part of last 2004 were pathetic. Any increase would appear dramatic. Also, the first quarter is when replacement stock is shipped in to replace what was sold during the busy Christmas season. Most of this inventory simply headed to the warehouse, and much of it is probably still sitting there.

China being "way down" for example could simply mean that they shipped a huge stock in prior to Dec. 31, and didn't need to restock much in the first quarter. The data was taken from US Customs records, not from industry sources, and only tracks where the units actually shipped from, not where they were manufactured. That means that any pianos that were built in China and shipped to Korea, then shipped to the US, would appear as coming from Korea. In other words, the data is useless.

Good to see you back.[/b]

Thank you. I appreciate that. But I'm not back. Someone called my attention to this bit of subtle spin, and I wanted to correct it.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

Top
#59247 - 07/13/05 07:03 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 732
Loc: San Francisco
Thanks, Larry. I appreciate that you're "back" to whatever degree you are. It's amazing what can be done with a few statistics taken out of context and misinterpreted.
_________________________
Aaron

Top
#59248 - 07/13/05 07:59 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Eins Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 748
Loc: Utah
Statistics? I don't believe any unless I tweaked them myself \:D
_________________________
One of the funny things about the stock market is that every time one person buys, another sells, and both think they are astute.
-William Feather

Top
#59249 - 07/13/05 08:40 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Paul Y Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1083
Loc: Nashua, NH
In my humble opinion, the first quarter of a piano manufacturer is traditionally one of ho-hum statistics! Most dealers load up for the Holiday season, making the third and fourth quarters the largest of the year. Manufacturers are busy the first of the year wooing dealers at the NAMM (industry trade) Show. Then the second quarter picks up again shipping NAMM orders out! And the individual piano companies dictate this flow based on the previous year's business.

So, despite figures that would be eye-opening to the novice reader, not much can be read into the Music Trades posted statistics.

What designates "market shipments" is what is ordered. For instance, Yamaha Corporation of America (California) orders their units from Hammamatsu, Japan six months in advance. They may or may not order heavy for the first quarter. It depends on what was ordered/sold the previous year. And, the orders could come out of Japan or Indonesia (in the case of Yamaha).

So, these figures hold no water if one tries to convey that one country (or company) is doing well while another might be floundering. After all, it is only three months out of a full year. As the retail piano business goes, so goes the piano shipments!
_________________________
Retired Industry Professional

Top
#59250 - 07/13/05 09:05 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Boxer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 210
Loc: Chicago
First, let me say that I agree about the admonition to be wary of stats, particularly when presented in year-to-year percentage comparisons. Not really possible to get a good view of the big picture, such as comparison between manufacturers/locations.

They still are, however, interesting from the perspective of seeing which countries are sending more pianos our way, comparing the *same* country year-to-year. Generally, business cycles in many industries are similar year-to-year, which is why same-quarter comparisons are often done. Once the change is identified, the next question is: why? Could be a long-term trend for a particular manufacturer, could be a geographic shift in the manufacturing base, could be due to an anomaly such as December product dumping.

Casting aspersions about Steve's intentions (by calling it "spin") is just goofy. He didn't state the stats in his original post--he was just happily pointing out that some PW members are now internationally recognizable and should be prepared to be mobbed when travelling. The stats were a response to a question, and it was just a minor oversight of the questioner's wording that implied these were sales stats(Steve stated these were import stats).

So let me ask a new question: anyone have any thoughts about why the changes, particularly with Chinese and Indonesian verticals?

Top
#59251 - 07/14/05 10:49 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6150
Alright folks, if you would like to present your interpretation of the statistics, fine -- but please do not insult the people who offers an interpretation different than yours. Please keep it civil.

Axtremus - Moderator
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

Top
#59252 - 07/14/05 10:58 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Frank K Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 135
Loc: USA
Want to give us some info on the new Prmabergers? You know, on materials, action and the like. I can't find any information on them online, since the official website is not up.
_________________________
1909 Briggs 6'2" Grand

Top
#59253 - 07/15/05 12:35 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10341
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
For clarification:

1. The statistics compare 1st quarter 2005 to 1st quarter 2004 and have nothing to do with 4th quarter imports.

2. NO Prambergers were imported from Indonesia until after the 1st quarter of 2005, so claims that I was backhandedly promoting Pramberger are false.

I simply was surprised that China was not growing as fast, that Indonesia WAS grtowing fast (although I can see that Kawai's move of production would be a major factor) and that Japanese imports were rising when I thought they would be falling.

It is difficult to contribute to discussions here when they invariably lead to attacks.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

Top
#59254 - 07/15/05 01:14 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
No one attacked you, Steve. I merely corrected the information.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

Top
#59255 - 07/15/05 01:33 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Paul Y Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1083
Loc: Nashua, NH
Steve,

Thanks for your on-going input into this forum and on this subject. I enjoyed your statistic listing on the initial post and ran to the office here and got the issue of Music Trades so I could take a look at it all. Thanks for the heads-up.

I, too, know that statistics can be taken out of context. But looking at the numbers can be interesting to say the least. However, I just knew there would be those lurking-in-wait that would attempt to poke holes in anything you post! It's too bad one cannot mention a brand name without being accused of advertising. In fact, I have taken the brand names off of my posted information. It just lists my experience, not what brands we represent!

Anyway, keep up the interesting posts! Always enjoy your thoughts...and "don't let the turkeys get you down"!
_________________________
Retired Industry Professional

Top
#59256 - 07/15/05 02:28 PM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10341
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
No one attacked you, Steve. I merely corrected the information. [/b]
Oh? Here's my post. Just what information here needed to be "corrected"?

 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Cohen:
 Quote:
Originally posted by ChatNoir:
So what country is up in sales? Don't tell me it's Estonia..... \:D [/b]
The question is what countries are up?

In verticals...China -45%; Japan + 70%; Indonesia + 214% ; Korea -7.2%.

In grands... China -14%; Japan + 12%; Indonesia +70%; Korea - 19.3%.

No stats on Europe.

\:D [/b]
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

Top
#59257 - 07/16/05 02:15 AM Re: Simply HORRIFIC!
Eins Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 748
Loc: Utah
Even this green pea can answer that one:

Black Cat's question was for sales. You answered with shipments.
_________________________
One of the funny things about the stock market is that every time one person buys, another sells, and both think they are astute.
-William Feather

Top

Moderator:  Ken Knapp, Piano World, Rickster 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
56 registered (Akshay, Alux, beeboss, Aucha, ando, 11 invisible), 1108 Guests and 25 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74236 Members
42 Forums
153570 Topics
2250691 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
On Temperament strip tuning, and other things
by Mark Davis
Today at 05:08 AM
NAAFI pianos
by PhilipInChina
Today at 04:41 AM
Yamaha Upright - Please help identify
by awyaks
Today at 01:00 AM
song i wrote. people in clubs love it
by jedplays
Yesterday at 10:49 PM
Fazioli "factory tour" video.
by R_B
Yesterday at 10:27 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission