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#592856 - 12/13/06 04:12 PM Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
mwf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 419
Loc: Peterborough, England
Hi,

This is my first post on this rather good forum,

I am currently in the progress of saving some money up for a new Yamaha Clavinova CLP-270 and I was just concerned that after reading up alot on digital pianos, concerning the advantages and more importantly disadvantages of owning a piano such as this, is it a wise choice to make considering I am a fairly advanced player and tend to focus on technically difficult and musically challenging pieces?

I was wondering if a model such as the CLP270 could handle, as it were, musically and technically pieces that I want to start playing, like Rachmaninov preludes, gaspard, islamey etc.. I am not sure if an acoustic piano is a must to have and practice pieces like this on, as I have heard time and time again.

Can Clavinovas be effectively played on to a concert standard for the more richer harmonic pieces for example?

Could the above pieces I have mentioned be effectively performed on a digital piano such as a CLP270? I personally feel I could after playing the clp270 for some time in a piano showroom, however people say there is no control over tone colour amongst other things, I dont want to buy it and regret the choice after a few years or so. Its alot of money and I dont want to regret my decision.

The reason why I have opted for a clavinova digital piano as apposed to an acoustic upright is because I need to practice silently most of the time and the actual tone of the clp270 I have fell in love with, and I find it more pleasing to the ear than alot of other real uprights I have tryed out, including a Yamaha upright worth originally five thousand pounds!!!

Please, please could people share their views and opinions on this matter, I am currently set on purchasing the CLP270 you see.

I have also heard top music schools have clavinova pianos as practice instruments for the students, so they must be suitable for performing the more advanced repertoire, the route I wish to take.

Thanks.
MWF

MWF
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#592857 - 12/13/06 04:27 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
8ude Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 2050
I have a Clavinova (forget the exact model number, but I think it's beyond the 270) and I personally have no issues with it when it comes to playing repertoire such as you've mentioned (though I've only read through Gaspard and Islamey - never really sat down to learn them... \:\) ) The only "problem" I have with them is that the sound seems to decay a bit more quickly than on an accoustic. Also, you cannot get harmonics (though I don't think those come into play in those pieces), so if you wanted to play some 20th century repertoire with those you'd be out of luck. But apart from those issues, I don't have any other problems. Like you, I need to have the ability to practice with headphones, and it works great in that capacity.

Go to a dealer and try some different models out, playing some of the repertoire you're interested in - that should give you some ideas as to the instruments' capabilities and if it will work for you.
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#592858 - 12/13/06 04:45 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
mwf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 419
Loc: Peterborough, England
Harmonics!! what are they then? never heard of them.
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#592859 - 12/13/06 05:00 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
Frank III Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/03
Posts: 310
Loc: Spring Lake, MI
I have an older Clavinova and took advanced lessons on it at the local university and thought it was great. However, after I bought my grand piano, the Clavinova just doesn't cut it anymore. As the other poster said, mostly because of the decay rate. I can't get the beauty and subtlty out of it like the grand, but it does sound better on headphones than through the built in speakers.

On the other hand, I don't think you'll regret having the Calvinova, even if you eventually purchase another piano. It comes in pretty handy and, if you need to play a gig somewhere, it is somewhat portable.
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#592860 - 12/13/06 05:30 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Hi Mark,
[waves in the direction of Peterboghorror ;\) ]
I have a CLP-280 (which is essentially identical to a 270 except the wooden white keys), and it is indeed an acceptable alternative to when I cannot play my acoustic piano due to family/neighbour/time of day issues. We live in a very open-plan converted barn where it is impossible to shut out the sound from the rest of house, so the possibility of playing with headphones late in the evenings is a huge plus for me. I tend to 'turn around' after 9.30pm \:\) :




FrankIII:
I can't get the beauty and subtlety out of it like the grand

I think that the limitations are quite obvious when trying to aim at voicing certain chords, precisely how to pedal a particular passage, etc, because a Clavinova simply doesn't react like a real piano in those areas. It does a good enough imitation so as to give a reasonable indication, but I'd not recommend one for anything more than sight-reading, familiarisation and the first steps of getting to know a piece. Once past that stage, the possibilities afforded by a decent (and not necessarily very expensive) acoustic piano become quite evident.

I am not trying to be discouraging, but one should be realistic about what technology can (and still cannot) do. E.g. I recently played around for a while on a well-maintained 25 year old Weinbach upright piano, which recently cost its owner ~£1000 from the small ads in the local paper. If funds were an issue, but I was determined to learn/play advanced classical repertoire, I would consider searching out something along those lines over and above any Clavinova currently available.

Best of luck with your choice,

-Michael B.
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#592861 - 12/13/06 05:36 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
8ude Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 2050
 Quote:
Originally posted by mwf:
Harmonics!! what are they then? never heard of them. [/b]
There are some pieces that instruct you to silently depress keys so as not to strike the strings with the hammers, but to raise the dampers. Then you play other notes. The sympathetic vibrations that are generated can cause the undampened strings to vibrate in such a way to play harmonic tones. You only see this in modern music, and not often at that.

There is also a different style of harmonics possible on an accoustic in which the player opens the lid and lightly presses his/her finger on the strings while playing the key. This causes the string to vibrate differently, causing harmonics (this is similar to harmonics produced on a violin or other stringed instrument). Obviously this is not possible on a clavinova, but only on an accoustic.

However, we're talking about extended modern techniques that come up in less than 0.01 percent of any music you'll likely encounter, they're mostly a modern curiosity and don't come up all that often. Don't let that be the reason you don't go with a clav... \:\)
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#592862 - 12/14/06 08:24 AM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
jon-nyc Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2022
Loc: the left bank -- of the east r...
I have a similar setup to Postenebraslux and agree with his post. I find my clav (a 230) perfectly acceptable alternative for playing off hours, learning passages, memorizing, etc. I would say you need a model with the GH-3 action, not the older GH action that did have some technical limitations that I noticed (key repetition, for example). I imagine the 270 has the GH-3.
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#592863 - 12/14/06 08:37 AM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10297
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
MWF,

More specifically about those harmonics: Depress the C below middle C silently as 8ude says. While holding that key depressed, play middle C and release it. What do you hear? You continue to hear middle C but the sound is coming from the low C string. Do the experiment again, holding low C silently depressed. Now play G above middle C and release it. High C and release it. The E above that, and release it. The G above that, and release it. The B-flat above that, and release it. Your low C string will produce all those harmonics. Now, if you hold down that low C and then play any other notes outside of that progression you'll essentially hear nothing (except maybe a little inharmonicity). Cool.
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#592864 - 12/14/06 10:26 AM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Pedalling is the biggest problem. The nuances possible on an acoustic are simply not available on a digital.

The touch is also a problem. Even though most nice digitals are weighted, the lack of a true escapement makes for a completely different feel.
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#592865 - 12/14/06 10:50 AM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
piano_fanatic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Oklahoma!
I reaserched that clavanova and think that I might have played on one. They are very good pianos and I don't think that you will have a prob will some pieces but you have to think a digi piano will be lacking on some of the luster of sound as a real piano will. I practiced the song my heart will go on on a clav at my piano teachers house and I thought that is sounded ok till I played it at a recitle on a Baldwin 1904 GrandPrix and it sounded soooo much better. But when it all settles down to it SOME digis are (dare I say it) better at SOME songs than the real thing. Power to you!! \:D
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#592866 - 12/14/06 12:03 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
LoFi Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 7
Loc: UK
I also play on a digital piano (though given some of the threads about repertoire, not to the standards of those on here) and thought I'd mention a couple of points.

My current stage piano (RD700SX) has a "sympathetic resonance" sample for each of the notes that can be used to create the harmonic effects mentioned above. Further, it also has a half-pedal option. Obviously, neither of these effects are as good as as on a well-maintained acoustic, but they do allow an approximation.

I'm not familiar with the current Clavinova range, but the old CLP-810 gathering dust in the garage took me well past my grade 8 and into easier concerto territory - that said, the action *is* different, and I'd need to sit down at a real piano for half an hour or so before I was comfortable publicly performing on an acoustic.

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#592867 - 12/14/06 03:30 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
mwf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 419
Loc: Peterborough, England
hmmm...interesting, ok thanks for the replies to this matter, I still have the problem that I cannot really have an acoustic piano in my home because they are too loud, and I practice alot in the evenings you see, it will drive my family mad.

As far as the harmonics are concerned, I did not realise you meant the sympathetic resonance which the clp270 does have, so thats that problem solved.

I agree with the pedalling comments, which are less subtle on a digital piano, but the clp270 does have half pedalling also.

The touch on the clp270 is fantastic in my opinion also, and the gh3 keyboard allows fast repetition of notes like on an acoustic.

I cant agree entirely with the post by posttenebraslux, the clp280 you have is much more of a resource than just for sight-reading and memorising etc.. thats being too harsh I feel. I know the clavinova is not the real thing but its still classed as an instrument/piano, and its a far better instrument to practice piano on than other uprights I have tryed.

I think the slight aspects of piano playing only possible on acoustic pianos such as precise pedalling etc.. are not enough to put me off, and as far a voicing is concerned I dont agree that you cant voice certain chords or melody lines on a digital piano such as the clp270.

I think that one can adapt from a digital piano to a real one easily, and its possible for someone to perform a piece of music better on a digital. Does it not depend on the individuals abilities?

Digital pianos can set the player up for the real thing, such as concert grand, and if top music schools use clavinovas they must be 100% suitable for advanced playing surely.

Thanks.
MWF
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#592868 - 12/14/06 05:05 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Mark,

I am afraid that we'll just have to agree to disagree about touch/voicing/etc; I can only tell you of my personal experiences.

As far as 'top music schools' using Clavinovas, that is certainly news to me. At the Conservatoire de Genève[1], (where my daughter and son have studied for the past 6 years, piano and double bass respectively) they will not accept any piano pupil, unless the child has access to an acoustic piano at home: Clavinovas and the like are expressly excluded. There are also no digital instruments in any practice rooms at any branch of the organisation across the canton.

-Michael B.
[1] Perhaps not a 'top' music school in international terms, but certainly quite well-respected in the French-speaking world, and has counted some reputed figures as piano professors in the past, such as Dinu Lipatti.
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#592869 - 12/14/06 05:52 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
mwf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 419
Loc: Peterborough, England
Are they really that bad?

Check out the clavinova web site, the co.uk one I think tells you what the music establishments think of the clp pianos that they use.

As far as playing technically is concerned there is nothing you cant do on a very good digital piano as apposed to an acoustic, its just the more subtle aspects you cant master on a digital, but I am sure if one practices on a digital piano they can adapt the skills learnt on a digital to an acoustic and then use the acoustic to perfect your performance as best you can.

I honestly cant see practicing on a decent digital piano being a negative, I seem to be a good player and have been told I am very good, purely by practicing on a Roland digital piano for years now, and have also played many different acoustic uprights and grands in my time by adapting to them when giving a performance.

One pianist could be just as good or better than another on a decent digital piano, than a pianist who plays nothing but acoustic pianos. Or in other words a pianist who plays digital pianos could jump onto an acoustic piano and play to a higher standard than a pianist who does not have anything to do with the digital piano world, but soley plays acoustic pianos.
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#592870 - 12/14/06 07:21 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
OK. Let's get into some detail. The CLP-270/280 has four of what are termed 'dynamic sample levels.' That is, each note has been sampled four times, for sake of argument, at piano, mezzo forte, forte and fortissimo levels. These four tones (or timbres, if you like) are then velocity-switched in four ranges across the 128 velocity values available in the MIDI specification, such that when one plays in the 'piano' range, the soft sample is used, when one plays more forcefully, the 'forte' sample is triggered, etc. For velocity values 0 to 127 the volume sensitivity can be adjusted to be more or less linear, but in general, the harder you play, the louder in volume terms the appropriate sample is reproduced.

On a real piano there is no sudden change from one timbre to another as one increases the velocity with which one plays. On a decently voiced piano you will notice that the tone changes almost imperceptibly from the quietest pianissimo through mezzo forte right up to the loudest sound possible. This phenomenon plays a large part in the expressive capabilities of the piano as an instrument. However, even on a sophisticated digital such as the 270/280, it is quite obvious when one is triggering the sample from the 'next range up or down' as it were. This is what I am referring to when talking about voicing, phrasing and dynamics. It is kind of the electronic equivalent of an acoustic piano with a pronounced tenor or bass break (where the tone characteristic/quality of the piano changes very noticeably at the points where the scale changes from single to double wound, or from wound to wire strings.) And is just as undesirable. This is all in addition to the issues concerning the pedal, or "the soul of the piano" as Rubenstein called it.

As an aside, I think it is obvious that a decent pianist will be able to get a better sound out of a good digital, than an unaccomplished or insensitive player can out of an acoustic piano; similarly, I am sure that Roger Federer could beat me quite soundly off the court, even if I was armed with the greatest racquet in the world and he had a frying pan. This however doesn't mean that a kitchen utensil is an ideal tool for learning how to play a good game of tennis \:\) .

So, to answer your question: no, that are not[/b] really that bad. They certainly have their uses and some distinct advantages over an acoustic instrument. They also have their limitations. You asked about advanced classical repertoire, and I gave you my opinion, based on owning one (alongside an acoustic piano) and playing (reasonably) advanced classical repertoire. I don't think they are useless, or I would not have bought one. Then again, they have their obvious shortcomings. I certainly cannot recommend one as a sole instrument for the purposes you describe.

I would suspect (and this is only a guess) that many of the Clavinovas in use at education institutions are used for the youngest beginners and certainly not much after ABRSM Grade 5 for example. But of course, Yamaha are not going to mention that on their website. As with most things in life, you get what you pay for, and you pay for what you get. And ~£1800 gets you the best imitation of an acoustic piano that those clever chaps at Yamaha can come up with so far. But it still ain't a real one.

My final advice would be to save up some more dough, (send your children up a few chimneys, etc) and invest in a decent upright acoustic (Yamaha, Schimmel, etc) with a silent practice option. You certainly sound like you are serious in your musical endeavours, and don't want to regret paying a still not inconsiderable amount for might be a half-arsed solution. If your true desire is to become a more accomplished pianist (and I think that the pieces you mention would heavily imply that), then I believe you will have to put a bit more folding stuff where you mout^H^H^H^heart is...

Kind regards,

-Michael B.
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#592871 - 12/14/06 07:30 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
oldcars Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 253
Loc: Philly burbs
I can state that one of the most accomplished pianists I ever heard in person demo'd my clavinova (as well as a disklavier and other acoustics in the store) and I was convinced that it was an instrument that can handle advanced piano playing.

He played La Campanella and Feux Follets, among other Liszt pieces, which is far, far beyond most pianist's technical ability. Certainly mine.

Anyway, I like my clavinova for recreational playing and for listening through headphones.

Joel
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#592872 - 12/14/06 09:00 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
joangolfing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 663
Loc: Iowa
Have you checked into any other digitals:
Kurzweil
Korg
Kawai

I just bought the Korg SP250.($899) While you are saving your money for a Yamaha CLP you could have this very portable and great sounding keyboard to practice on. Do a Google search if you're interested.

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#592873 - 12/15/06 02:40 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
mwf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 419
Loc: Peterborough, England
Posttenebraslux, yes there are no way near as many tonal, timbre subtle changes on a digital no, but there are enough to plan out your phrasing etc.. and how you want to perform a piece dynamically on the whole.

One such as myself can adapt to acoustic pianos and change what you cant do as well on a digital to suit the acoustic. There is considerably more dynamic sprectrum on grand pianos as you surely know as compared to digital or even upright pianos as you are suggesting I should go for. I can already play uprights well anyway, there has been nothing but positives from learning and performing music on my current digital, it is good if not excellent preperation for the real thing such as grand piano.

Your comments on the tennis comparison is a bit odd, how can you compare a decent clavinova to something like a kitchen utensil in the context of playing tennis? Ridiculous!! A racket is a racket, a piano is a piano, its not like a clavinova is a toy piano with 22 keys as compared to a grand piano or an upright with 88 keys and completely different sound coming from the instrument. In other words a tennis player obviously would not play with a kitchen utensil ever, but a pianist could practice on a digital piano if he/she had to, and it would be a fairly accurate outcome gained.

I cant own a grand piano for obvious reasons, but a digital piano such as this clavinova I feel will not be a negative as compared to buying an upright.

Oh and thats you speculating on the music establishments using the clavinovas for beginning purposes etc.. I think they are used for very high standards as decent second pianos, there is now no real need to practice on upright pianos, if you are serious about music it is more important that one practices on grand pianos as well as a second piano such as a digital, or if you like an acoustic.

I am beyond grade 8 and managed to get there by practicing soley on my Roland digital piano, I had to do some touch-ups on an upright, but I was more than capable of reaching the standard through regular practice sessions on a digital piano. So that proves you wrong, again.. The intelligent pianist knows what they can and cannot do on whatever piano they need to perform on, and thus can adapt to the piano at hand, its not like you cant play the piano very well just because you dont practice on uprights. Every upright is different to the next anyway, how can soley practicing on the same upright every day make you adapt easier to a grand?
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#592874 - 12/15/06 03:52 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
Mark Purney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 373
Loc: Mesa, AZ
The Clavinova will allow you to work on any advanced material you want, and you will have no trouble playing or performing on acoustic pianos, just because you practice on a CLP. My only suggestion is to spend a little more for the CLP-280 to get the natural keyboard.

It won't compete with a high quality acoustic grand costing 8 times as much, but it's a great practice instrument. It never goes out of tune, and you can practice any time you want without disturbing anyone. That's why a lot of people own both an acoustic and a digital.

Here are a few recordings I made with my CLP-175. A world-travelling concert pianist (who hates digitals) heard these recordings without knowing how they were recorded, or even who was playing. He didn't suspect it was a digital, and was surprised when he found out.
http://raktron.com/piano/

Good luck with your decision.
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#592875 - 12/15/06 04:13 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
CrashTest Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 4110
Haha, having a Digital piano next to a Bosendorfer..I would practice on the Bosendorfer even if it meant I'd be waking Bach up!

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#592876 - 12/15/06 05:08 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Mark,

The analogy with the tennis racquet and frying pan is what is known in rhetoric as 'hyperbole', i.e. deliberate exaggeration. Hence the \:\) at the end of it. You say it is ridiculous, and indeed that was the point. I was trying to point out that just citing an accomplished pianist making a reasonable sound from a digital and a bad pianist murdering something on an acoustic, doesn't in itself prove that much, as IMO both are at extremes of the discussion at hand. As I said in an earlier message, we will probably have to agree to disagree about this issue, and your responses would appear to confirm that. Your first post asks for others to share their opinions on the matter, a request that I think I fairly much fulfilled, even if you didn't like what you read: one thing to seek advice, and another is merely to seek affirmation of a decision that is already made, and then simply defend it vehemently in the face of a conflicting view.

If some musical establishments do consider digitals acceptable for classical repertoire students, whereas others expressly forbid them, this shows that the issue is not as cut and dried as either[/b] of us would like to think. Please note that I have never said you were/are wrong, merely that I believe otherwise.

All that said, I agree most violently(!) with all that you say about having to be able to adapt to the piano at hand. Over the years I have played a great variety of instruments: from age 6 to 16 it was mostly the Kemble Classic that my not-too-affluent (and non-musical) parents paupered themselves even further to afford, and which still stands in their house today. It got me to Grade 8 with distinction at 14 and then working towards an external ARCM[1], so uprights (even inexpensive ones) are not a total waste of time... Over that time and the intervening years I also encountered a wide range of good, bad and indifferent uprights and grands at rehearsal and performing venues, and obviously had to adapt my playing (mostly accompanying) accordingly.

I listened to Mark's Op10#1 in another thread, and it is indeed marvellously played , but is to me obviously a digital, though perhaps someone who is not familiar with the Yamaha digital and acoustic sound signatures[2] might be fooled into thinking it was indeed a Yamaha grand. As Mark says, they are very good practice tools, but perhaps I just enjoy the 'real thing' too much to believe that I (or anyone else) could be content with a digital as a sole means of playing the world's great piano music. I am probably prejudiced, and perhaps I am, as you say, 'wrong' but I am only saying what I believe to be true...

Best regards and good luck for your future playing,

-Michael B.
[1] Why I then didn't take the diploma, went to study languages at university, and ended up doing what I do in Switzerland, is another story for another day; however, after restarting lessons with a top-class teacher here ~18 months ago, I hope to enter for a DipABRSM next summer.
[2] Amongst other things, there is a mid/high range 'zingy' resonance that immediately marks it out (for my ears) as a Yamaha digital. It is present on my 280 as well; I should perhaps also admit that I owned a Yamaha C6 acoustic grand for a few years.
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#592877 - 12/16/06 10:55 AM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
mwf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 419
Loc: Peterborough, England
Michael, studying the english language as well as the piano is very evident, you adore your big words and phrases dont you. \:\) dont worry though I can understand you clearly. You may have even noticed I have been spelling racquet incorrectly...

Your situation in the above photograph is very sweet, why would you want to play on any digital piano if you had that type of grand piano next door to it.

I just want to point out that your comments made on using a clp280 just for familiarisation, sight-reading and first getting to know a piece is wrong, wrong and more wrong than you realise. They are ill founded comments, and show your ignorance towards digital technology, thats a good instrument you have there, but because you have the Bosendorfer you are just writing the clp280 off as hardly anything resourceful.

Why would someone spend 2400 pounds on a top of the range clavinova just to do sight-reading or familiarisation of a piece of music.. dont talk rubbish please, there is so much more you can do on a digital piano, oh..wait you can actually play the piano properly michael B on a digital piano or did you not realise that my friend? Thats why they call them digital PIANOS. They have 88 keys and can be performed on by a pianist like myself to a very high standard, I have played excellent music to a high standard on them to date, obvioulsy you are not musical enough, I can understand now your ignorance.

your knowledge of music is lacking in my opinion, you cant clearly see the overall picture can you, music and music-making is from the person within, and does not soley depend on the instrument one performs on at the time.

Your comments on the op10.1 recording by Chopin are again more evidence of your elitist demeanour, its not that obvious the recording was made on a digital piano is it.. you are being your stubborn arrogant self again. It sounds like an acoustic piano, hence the fact why these kind of pianos are made, to sound almost like the real thing, its not that far off is it?

Oh and if you are trying to outwit me with a collins dictionary infront of you everytime you write another post, dont bother I have one too. I do understand my own language my friend.

MWF.
_________________________
www.youtube.com/ukpiano

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#592878 - 12/16/06 12:07 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
w_scott_iv@yahoo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 1120
Loc: West Virginia
The only use of clavinovas in 'top music schools' that I'm aware of is for class piano (piano lab) intended mostly for teaching keyboard harmony or basic skills to non-piano majors. The practice rooms for piano majors are still stocked with (often notorious) acoustic pianos. I own several digitals, but I only use them when an acoustic piano isn't available. And if I have to use one I avoid playing classical music. I believe that for serious study or performance, there is no substitute for an acoustic piano.

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#592879 - 12/16/06 01:38 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Mark,

It would appear that you consider that insult and ad hominem arguments are a valid form of debate, whether it be my writing style or indeed my failure to equate the musical possibilities of digital pianos with those of acoustic ones. For your information, I didn't study the English language past '0' level standard, but am fluent in / familiar with a few others. I don't use a dictionary when posting here, so I apologise for having a vocabulary wider than that of the average Sun-reader.

Mark, just because I don't agree with you, doesn't necessarily make me 'not musical enough' and 'stubborn and arrogant.' I don't know you, or you me, so I would think that neither of us is in a position to judge either person's musical abilities in any meaningful fashion, for whatever relevance that might be.

Similarly I am not going to apologise for having bought a 'top of the range Clavinova' purely as a silent practice option. It was in fact quite a bit cheaper than £2400; then again, I did have to buy a 7ft Bösendorfer from the same place in order to get such a special discount. I don't think it is a crime to spend one's hard-earned wages/savings on the piano(s) of one's choice. Just because I have some expensive musical instruments doesn't make me stinking rich, arrogant or worthy of your or anyone else's resentment, e.g. my piano is worth about 5x the value of my car... Also if it makes me 'elitist' because I can recognise a Clavinova (i.e. sampled Yamaha piano) when I hear one, the so be it. I've been called worse before, and by people that actually know me, rather than a stranger in an Internet forum ;\) .

You might have noticed that despite not agreeing with your views, I have tried to keep the tone reasonably light-hearted and also taken the trouble on a few occasions to wish you well in your future musical activities. This was meant sincerely, and I still hold these views. However, I am not sure that continuing the discussion is particularly worthwhile, unless you can get a civil tongue in your head and can engage in a mature debate without resorting to personal attacks.

Regards,

-Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#592880 - 12/16/06 11:35 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
mwf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 419
Loc: Peterborough, England
Michael, the CLP280 is the highest model number, hence top model. Personally I feel they are more than just a means for sight-reading etc.. and I think others would agree with me on that.

Are you using latin on me now...If you wanted to get a clavinova just for sight-reading and getting to know a piece, why get the top model? Why would anyone spend that much money for just doing that? You could get the clp220 or whatever the lowest model is in that range.

Did I ever make comments on your financial status? I dont think so, I am not interested in how rich you might be, sorry. The resentment comments you made above I cant relate to at all.

Anyway, this is pathetic now, I just feel that as long as I have a piano of whatever type in front of me I can only improve as a musician over the long run. I cant see how playing a Clavinova can be worse than playing on an upright.

MWF.
_________________________
www.youtube.com/ukpiano

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#592881 - 12/17/06 07:58 AM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Mark,

If you wanted to get a clavinova just for sight-reading and getting to know a piece, why get the top model? Why would anyone spend that much money for just doing that? You could get the clp220 or whatever the lowest model is in that range.

I think it all rather depends one's interpretation of the phrase "that much money." If I'd been really serious about I would of course have bought one of the Gran-Touch models, which has a real Yamaha grand piano keyboard and action[/b] inside, rather than the (admittedly very good) imitation one that is in a Clavinova. But like most people, I had a certain limit on financial resources, so went with what I considered to be the best value at that price point.

I spent a lot of time getting to know new pieces... in previous posts on both the Acoustic and Digital forums here, I have often since commented that I wish that I'd invested in a good digital a lot sooner. I also agree with Mark P above who recommended going the extra for the CLP-280 in order to have the 'natural' keyboard, i.e. the wooden white keys, which does give a better feel IMO.

I am fortunate that I can play my acoustic piano for 30-45 minutes each morning before going to work; my wife/kids leave the house at 0715, our immediate neighbours are gone by 0730, and I don't leave until 0815. I get to play at least an hour or so each evening. Now with the Clavinova I can decide to take the first steps to tackle a Bach fugue (or Beethoven sonata, or indeed a Rach prelude) at 11.00pm if I want, which is great.


I cant see how playing a Clavinova can be worse than playing on an upright.

OK... if you really have to practice silently all the time[/b], then a Clavinova is really the only way to go. It would IMO be difficult to justify putting a strain on finances in order to purchase a good acoustic upright piano (with a MIDI/practice modification) and only ever use it in silent mode.

Enjoy the rest of your Sunday,

Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#592882 - 12/17/06 01:07 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2100
Whew! Interesting debate between Mark and Michael.
I own a Roland Hp107. Roland has the new escapement action and sounds are sampled from a Steinway Concert Grand. Still I much prefer playing my Kawai RX-2 when possible. In my opinion, digitals are good for practicing, learning a new piece and maybe composing to some extent. But for advanced players, a grand piano is the first choice, followed by a good quality full size upright.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#592883 - 12/17/06 04:01 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2100
I just uploaded the file below for comparison with the one played on Yamaha CLP 175 Mark Purney has provided.
(just to give an idea about the sound of Roland HP107e)


Chopin 10-1 (excerpt) / Roland HP107e
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#592884 - 12/17/06 05:51 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
I must say that not only do I respect Michael's view on this but I agree with him completely.

In fact I bought my CLP280 largely because of Michael's advice on this subject here on this forum (along with a very helpful guy on teh digital forum) and I have a very similar set up to him (in my case with a 6ft grand and a concert grand).

I too am well above grade 8 (as is Michael) and in my view the Clavinova is perfectly acceptable for practising advanced rep. However, if you want to be able to use this practice to play a good acoustic grand really well, with delicate musical nuance and so on, then the only solution is to find the opportunity to practice on an acoustic grand as well.

I recommend the CLP 280 (which is better in terms of feel in my view than the 270) but if I want to stir my emotions - or those of anyone unfortunate enough to be forced to listen to me - then the big acoustic grand is quite frankly in a totally different ball game. Indeed so is the 6ft Boston.

Kind regards

Adrian
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#592885 - 12/17/06 06:47 PM Re: Advanced piano on Clavinova CLP?
Iain Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 545
Loc: London, UK
Escapement? Since when does that make really any difference? Any pianist who is halfway intelligent can adapt in a couple minutes or seconds even from one action to another, we have to already because we don't carry our instruments around!

I have a yamaha YDP that is a couple of years old; when I finished university and no longer had access to pianos I practiced solely on it for 3 months. Then when audition time came along, I auditioned on proper acoustic grands, etc. and the 20 minute warm-up time was more than enough to get used to the piano. Only the least adaptable pianist would actually have trouble I think.

Soundwise, it's good and bad. The actual sound isn't too hot, but it is more responsive than most pianos I have played in the last several years. I can actually play with MORE subtlety.

By the way, my audition was successful, I got a place.

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