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Mark, The analogy with the tennis racquet and frying pan is what is known in rhetoric as 'hyperbole', i.e. deliberate exaggeration. Hence the at the end of it. You say it is ridiculous, and indeed that was the point. I was trying to point out that just citing an accomplished pianist making a reasonable sound from a digital and a bad pianist murdering something on an acoustic, doesn't in itself prove that much, as IMO both are at extremes of the discussion at hand. As I said in an earlier message, we will probably have to agree to disagree about this issue, and your responses would appear to confirm that. Your first post asks for others to share their opinions on the matter, a request that I think I fairly much fulfilled, even if you didn't like what you read: one thing to seek advice, and another is merely to seek affirmation of a decision that is already made, and then simply defend it vehemently in the face of a conflicting view. If some musical establishments do consider digitals acceptable for classical repertoire students, whereas others expressly forbid them, this shows that the issue is not as cut and dried as either of us would like to think. Please note that I have never said you were/are wrong, merely that I believe otherwise. All that said, I agree most violently(!) with all that you say about having to be able to adapt to the piano at hand. Over the years I have played a great variety of instruments: from age 6 to 16 it was mostly the Kemble Classic that my not-too-affluent (and non-musical) parents paupered themselves even further to afford, and which still stands in their house today. It got me to Grade 8 with distinction at 14 and then working towards an external ARCM[1], so uprights (even inexpensive ones) are not a total waste of time... Over that time and the intervening years I also encountered a wide range of good, bad and indifferent uprights and grands at rehearsal and performing venues, and obviously had to adapt my playing (mostly accompanying) accordingly. I listened to Mark's Op10#1 in another thread, and it is indeed marvellously played , but is to me obviously a digital, though perhaps someone who is not familiar with the Yamaha digital and acoustic sound signatures[2] might be fooled into thinking it was indeed a Yamaha grand. As Mark says, they are very good practice tools, but perhaps I just enjoy the 'real thing' too much to believe that I (or anyone else) could be content with a digital as a sole means of playing the world's great piano music. I am probably prejudiced, and perhaps I am, as you say, 'wrong' but I am only saying what I believe to be true... Best regards and good luck for your future playing, -Michael B. [1] Why I then didn't take the diploma, went to study languages at university, and ended up doing what I do in Switzerland, is another story for another day; however, after restarting lessons with a top-class teacher here ~18 months ago, I hope to enter for a DipABRSM next summer. [2] Amongst other things, there is a mid/high range 'zingy' resonance that immediately marks it out (for my ears) as a Yamaha digital. It is present on my 280 as well; I should perhaps also admit that I owned a Yamaha C6 acoustic grand for a few years.
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Michael, studying the english language as well as the piano is very evident, you adore your big words and phrases dont you. dont worry though I can understand you clearly. You may have even noticed I have been spelling racquet incorrectly... Your situation in the above photograph is very sweet, why would you want to play on any digital piano if you had that type of grand piano next door to it. I just want to point out that your comments made on using a clp280 just for familiarisation, sight-reading and first getting to know a piece is wrong, wrong and more wrong than you realise. They are ill founded comments, and show your ignorance towards digital technology, thats a good instrument you have there, but because you have the Bosendorfer you are just writing the clp280 off as hardly anything resourceful. Why would someone spend 2400 pounds on a top of the range clavinova just to do sight-reading or familiarisation of a piece of music.. dont talk rubbish please, there is so much more you can do on a digital piano, oh..wait you can actually play the piano properly michael B on a digital piano or did you not realise that my friend? Thats why they call them digital PIANOS. They have 88 keys and can be performed on by a pianist like myself to a very high standard, I have played excellent music to a high standard on them to date, obvioulsy you are not musical enough, I can understand now your ignorance. your knowledge of music is lacking in my opinion, you cant clearly see the overall picture can you, music and music-making is from the person within, and does not soley depend on the instrument one performs on at the time. Your comments on the op10.1 recording by Chopin are again more evidence of your elitist demeanour, its not that obvious the recording was made on a digital piano is it.. you are being your stubborn arrogant self again. It sounds like an acoustic piano, hence the fact why these kind of pianos are made, to sound almost like the real thing, its not that far off is it? Oh and if you are trying to outwit me with a collins dictionary infront of you everytime you write another post, dont bother I have one too. I do understand my own language my friend. MWF.
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The only use of clavinovas in 'top music schools' that I'm aware of is for class piano (piano lab) intended mostly for teaching keyboard harmony or basic skills to non-piano majors. The practice rooms for piano majors are still stocked with (often notorious) acoustic pianos. I own several digitals, but I only use them when an acoustic piano isn't available. And if I have to use one I avoid playing classical music. I believe that for serious study or performance, there is no substitute for an acoustic piano.
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Mark, It would appear that you consider that insult and ad hominem arguments are a valid form of debate, whether it be my writing style or indeed my failure to equate the musical possibilities of digital pianos with those of acoustic ones. For your information, I didn't study the English language past '0' level standard, but am fluent in / familiar with a few others. I don't use a dictionary when posting here, so I apologise for having a vocabulary wider than that of the average Sun-reader. Mark, just because I don't agree with you, doesn't necessarily make me 'not musical enough' and 'stubborn and arrogant.' I don't know you, or you me, so I would think that neither of us is in a position to judge either person's musical abilities in any meaningful fashion, for whatever relevance that might be. Similarly I am not going to apologise for having bought a 'top of the range Clavinova' purely as a silent practice option. It was in fact quite a bit cheaper than £2400; then again, I did have to buy a 7ft Bösendorfer from the same place in order to get such a special discount. I don't think it is a crime to spend one's hard-earned wages/savings on the piano(s) of one's choice. Just because I have some expensive musical instruments doesn't make me stinking rich, arrogant or worthy of your or anyone else's resentment, e.g. my piano is worth about 5x the value of my car... Also if it makes me 'elitist' because I can recognise a Clavinova (i.e. sampled Yamaha piano) when I hear one, the so be it. I've been called worse before, and by people that actually know me, rather than a stranger in an Internet forum . You might have noticed that despite not agreeing with your views, I have tried to keep the tone reasonably light-hearted and also taken the trouble on a few occasions to wish you well in your future musical activities. This was meant sincerely, and I still hold these views. However, I am not sure that continuing the discussion is particularly worthwhile, unless you can get a civil tongue in your head and can engage in a mature debate without resorting to personal attacks. Regards, -Michael B.
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Michael, the CLP280 is the highest model number, hence top model. Personally I feel they are more than just a means for sight-reading etc.. and I think others would agree with me on that.
Are you using latin on me now...If you wanted to get a clavinova just for sight-reading and getting to know a piece, why get the top model? Why would anyone spend that much money for just doing that? You could get the clp220 or whatever the lowest model is in that range.
Did I ever make comments on your financial status? I dont think so, I am not interested in how rich you might be, sorry. The resentment comments you made above I cant relate to at all.
Anyway, this is pathetic now, I just feel that as long as I have a piano of whatever type in front of me I can only improve as a musician over the long run. I cant see how playing a Clavinova can be worse than playing on an upright.
MWF.
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Mark,
If you wanted to get a clavinova just for sight-reading and getting to know a piece, why get the top model? Why would anyone spend that much money for just doing that? You could get the clp220 or whatever the lowest model is in that range.
I think it all rather depends one's interpretation of the phrase "that much money." If I'd been really serious about I would of course have bought one of the Gran-Touch models, which has a real Yamaha grand piano keyboard and action inside, rather than the (admittedly very good) imitation one that is in a Clavinova. But like most people, I had a certain limit on financial resources, so went with what I considered to be the best value at that price point.
I spent a lot of time getting to know new pieces... in previous posts on both the Acoustic and Digital forums here, I have often since commented that I wish that I'd invested in a good digital a lot sooner. I also agree with Mark P above who recommended going the extra for the CLP-280 in order to have the 'natural' keyboard, i.e. the wooden white keys, which does give a better feel IMO.
I am fortunate that I can play my acoustic piano for 30-45 minutes each morning before going to work; my wife/kids leave the house at 0715, our immediate neighbours are gone by 0730, and I don't leave until 0815. I get to play at least an hour or so each evening. Now with the Clavinova I can decide to take the first steps to tackle a Bach fugue (or Beethoven sonata, or indeed a Rach prelude) at 11.00pm if I want, which is great.
I cant see how playing a Clavinova can be worse than playing on an upright.
OK... if you really have to practice silently all the time, then a Clavinova is really the only way to go. It would IMO be difficult to justify putting a strain on finances in order to purchase a good acoustic upright piano (with a MIDI/practice modification) and only ever use it in silent mode.
Enjoy the rest of your Sunday,
Michael B.
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
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Whew! Interesting debate between Mark and Michael. I own a Roland Hp107. Roland has the new escapement action and sounds are sampled from a Steinway Concert Grand. Still I much prefer playing my Kawai RX-2 when possible. In my opinion, digitals are good for practicing, learning a new piece and maybe composing to some extent. But for advanced players, a grand piano is the first choice, followed by a good quality full size upright.
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I just uploaded the file below for comparison with the one played on Yamaha CLP 175 Mark Purney has provided. (just to give an idea about the sound of Roland HP107e) Chopin 10-1 (excerpt) / Roland HP107e
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I must say that not only do I respect Michael's view on this but I agree with him completely.
In fact I bought my CLP280 largely because of Michael's advice on this subject here on this forum (along with a very helpful guy on teh digital forum) and I have a very similar set up to him (in my case with a 6ft grand and a concert grand).
I too am well above grade 8 (as is Michael) and in my view the Clavinova is perfectly acceptable for practising advanced rep. However, if you want to be able to use this practice to play a good acoustic grand really well, with delicate musical nuance and so on, then the only solution is to find the opportunity to practice on an acoustic grand as well.
I recommend the CLP 280 (which is better in terms of feel in my view than the 270) but if I want to stir my emotions - or those of anyone unfortunate enough to be forced to listen to me - then the big acoustic grand is quite frankly in a totally different ball game. Indeed so is the 6ft Boston.
Kind regards
Adrian
C212. Teaching. Accompaniment.
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Escapement? Since when does that make really any difference? Any pianist who is halfway intelligent can adapt in a couple minutes or seconds even from one action to another, we have to already because we don't carry our instruments around!
I have a yamaha YDP that is a couple of years old; when I finished university and no longer had access to pianos I practiced solely on it for 3 months. Then when audition time came along, I auditioned on proper acoustic grands, etc. and the 20 minute warm-up time was more than enough to get used to the piano. Only the least adaptable pianist would actually have trouble I think.
Soundwise, it's good and bad. The actual sound isn't too hot, but it is more responsive than most pianos I have played in the last several years. I can actually play with MORE subtlety.
By the way, my audition was successful, I got a place.
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This is going in circles, and I think a lot of this arguing is just unnecessary. Nobody is claiming that digitals are better than acoustic grands. Nobody is even arguing that digitals are even anywhere near as good as good acoustic grands (I'm certainly not making that claim). So why such the heated debate? We should narrow this discussion to addressing the poster's original question and helping him make a REALISTIC decision for his circumstances. I interpret his question as:
"If you don't have the money or the space for an acoustic grand, and silent practice is required, will a CLP be sufficient for studying advanced material?"
An acoustic grand isn't even an option here! As I see it, the person asking the question has two options: A digital, or an upright that has a silent practice mechanism. And if his budget is limited to the cost of a CLP-270, this severely limits the range of upright choices to used or low quality uprights.
I simply could not recommend a low quality upright to someone over a CLP-270, because I think the digital, IN THIS SITUATION, is superior for studying advanced material.
The acoustic pianos I had growing up were not good. In fact, they were far inferior to today's CLP digitals in quality of sound and action. Despite that, I got as far as competing in concerto competitions by age 12, and even performed a concerto with an orchestra at that age. Since buying a CLP-175 a few months ago I feel I've been able to advance beyond the level I was when I quit studying at age 14 at the Cleveland Institute.
I do hope to get an acoustic grand myself, but I'm not ready to make that purchase at this time for various reasons. Even after that happens, I will continue to use the digital for silent practice - lots of it.
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Hi
The main question I have is do I really need an acoustic upright not grand, in order to develop musically and technically, thus managing pieces of a more advanced nature such as complex, dissonant music like you find in Islamey or Gaspard.
On the other hand, would a Clavinova be ok for more arguably simpler music such as Mozart, where obviously phrasing amongst other aspects are crucial.
Michael gives me the impression that I need an acoustic upright to practice music like this, and he writes Clavinova models off as nothing more than a tool to sight-read or for making first steps towards a piece. This has thrown be a tad because he has the clp280, in my opinion a great instrument for all round piano performance.
Using an upright to me may be an unwise choice because playing with the silent pedal all the time will ruin my musical experience. And its still loud in my books anyway compared to the volume turned down on a digital piano.
I also dont think clp models or any digital piano can compete with an acoustic grand, I never said that. I just wanted to reasure myself that practicing soley on a Clavinova piano for hours a day will be ok, and not make me less of a pianist compared to someone who plays uprights, not grands, all the time.
Basically is owning an acoustic upright of paramount importance when considering to venture into advanced piano literature? Is practice soley on a digital piano such as a Clp model an unwise move to make? Considering of course I currently have no access to a grand piano. I know uprights have wooden keys, real strings and apparently tone colour control as compared to digital pianos which consist of none of the above criteria, well apart from perhaps wooden keys on some models.
Finally the clp-280 is out of my price range, so I have opted for the clp-270, I dont think the wooden white keys matter enough for the significant price difference. They both have the same features anyway.
Yamaha to me have got it right as far as digital pianos are concerned, and I cant see anything close to the Clavinova clp range in the other companies models such as Roland.
You see the above post by Mark Purney is reassuring, however the post by hakki is not, there is no mention of a case for suitable advanced piano on a Clavinova piano. I dont think I can get a good quality full size upright, as the post mentions is crucial.
Anyway many thanks for the replies I have received from the members of this excellent forum, I have learnt quite a bit already, any more replies to this post would be greatly appreciated.
MWF.
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I just noticed that the link I gave is not working anymore. So here's the new link. http://www.savefile.com/files/350610
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I think you can go very far technically on a Clavinova. Read scores, learn to hit the correct keys in the correct time with correct force. perhaps the greatest differnce lays in hte sustain pedal and the absence of natural resonance.
I regularly train on a Yamaha P80 and Kawai ES3, and during week and enjoy the sound of a real piano. The action, however, of the best digitals are superior to the actions of many uprights, and more consistent.
A big problem indeed that piano actions are so various!
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Originally posted by mwf: Hi,
This is my first post on this rather good forum,
I am currently in the progress of saving some money up for a new Yamaha Clavinova CLP-270 and I was just concerned that after reading up alot on digital pianos, concerning the advantages and more importantly disadvantages of owning a piano such as this, is it a wise choice to make considering I am a fairly advanced player and tend to focus on technically difficult and musically challenging pieces?
I was wondering if a model such as the CLP270 could handle, as it were, musically and technically pieces that I want to start playing, like Rachmaninov preludes, gaspard, islamey etc.. I am not sure if an acoustic piano is a must to have and practice pieces like this on, as I have heard time and time again.
Can Clavinovas be effectively played on to a concert standard for the more richer harmonic pieces for example?
Could the above pieces I have mentioned be effectively performed on a digital piano such as a CLP270? I personally feel I could after playing the clp270 for some time in a piano showroom, however people say there is no control over tone colour amongst other things, I dont want to buy it and regret the choice after a few years or so. Its alot of money and I dont want to regret my decision.
The reason why I have opted for a clavinova digital piano as apposed to an acoustic upright is because I need to practice silently most of the time and the actual tone of the clp270 I have fell in love with, and I find it more pleasing to the ear than alot of other real uprights I have tryed out, including a Yamaha upright worth originally five thousand pounds!!!
Please, please could people share their views and opinions on this matter, I am currently set on purchasing the CLP270 you see.
I have also heard top music schools have clavinova pianos as practice instruments for the students, so they must be suitable for performing the more advanced repertoire, the route I wish to take.
Thanks. MWF
MWF NO!!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by mwf:
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Yamaha to me have got it right as far as digital pianos are concerned, and I cant see anything close to the Clavinova clp range in the other companies models such as Roland.
You see the above post by Mark Purney is reassuring, however the post by hakki is not, there is no mention of a case for suitable advanced piano on a Clavinova piano. I dont think I can get a good quality full size upright, as the post mentions is crucial.
Anyway many thanks for the replies I have received from the members of this excellent forum, I have learnt quite a bit already, any more replies to this post would be greatly appreciated.
MWF. Since I haven't tried the Yamaha 270, I can't comment on that. My assessments are based on the Roland HP107 I own. I find it difficult at times to play advanced pieces on my Roland because the sounds are sampled at 4 levels of velocity only. Sometimes, notes that would sound normal on an acoustic piano come out louder than I intend due to this factor. Yet, if you find the 10-1 I play on my Roland acceptable, then why not go with a digital. Regards,
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I think the best way to go is to connect the clavinova to a pc and play with a good sample library like synthogy's ivory, much better sound than the clavinova.
I have a clp 230 and i'm quite happy with it, next month finally i will upgrade my pc and get ivory and it will sound a lot lot better with the speakers of the clavinova + 4 from pc/stereo system all around me. It's going to be cool.
Of course i whish i had a acoustic but i live in an apartment so it's not recommended.
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ROFL hey mwf you might want to learn a little bit of something called humility you're a dumb noob that crawled out of the woodwork with zero posts and by your 5th one you're already waging personal attacks on a respected member here that was offering you his mere opinion and advice. Sounds to me like the only "arrogant" chap here is you. Better learn some manners boy or your tenure here at pianoworld will be quite a short one.
"He who turns himself into a beast, gets rid of the pain of being a man."
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Originally posted by Requiem Aeternam: ROFL hey mwf you might want to learn a little bit of something called humility you're a dumb noob that crawled out of the woodwork with zero posts and by your 5th one you're already waging personal attacks on a respected member here that was offering you his mere opinion and advice. Sounds to me like the only "arrogant" chap here is you. Better learn some manners boy or your tenure here at pianoworld will be quite a short one. I completely agree. I thought Michael's responses were polite, on point and sincere attempts to answer the question asked while MWF quickly descended to personal attacks apparently because Michael had the temerity to disagree with him. In re-reading the thread I was impressed by Michael's continued polite responses and willingness to keep trying to explain his position in the face of increasingly hostile responses from MWF. Take your anger elsewhere MWF. If you ask for an opinion at least be prepared for the possibility that it might differ from your own.
Greg
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hallelujah and amen brotha, merry christmas to all
"He who turns himself into a beast, gets rid of the pain of being a man."
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