Does anyone else agree that Haydn must have lived probably one of the best musical lives in history? I mean he was born in 1732, a time where Bach and Handel were still out and strong, though I'm not sure exactly how aware Haydn was of these two masters. He was about 18 when they both died and then of course lived all of Mozart's 36 years which we all know is nothing short of spectacular. And of course still going to live long enough to be there when Beethoven composed many of his great works. Let's not forget, most importantly, that Haydn is among the most creative, powerful, innovative and influencial composers who ever lived. He's done more for music than most men have, establishing forms which allowed for the men like Mozart and Beethoven to fully express their genius. I just have to say all this stuff about this remarkable man, we owe him a lot and for the the things mentioned above, man he must have lived the most amazing life as a musician. In one lifetime he was in the presence of such great men, remaining humble about it the whole time and just pursuing ways to advance his own art. Wow, what a great human being and amazing contributor to the greatest of arts!

I agree. He was quite a humble person. Just think he said Mozart would go places when he saw the young child perform, and was one of Beethoven's teachers.

John

I admire him too.

He had a good situation as well, in having had a good patron for most of his life. He had excellent musicians to compose for, continual occasion to compose, some clout in how things were run.

...Didn't he write the Austrian national anthem as well?

But he earned it! He didn't come from a musical family, was homeless for a bit, barely eked out an existance living in a cramped attic while teaching himself composition for 8 years. He learned from wherever he could, and apparently put up with some abuse in order to have his compositions looked over by some maestro.

A class act. I love the joy and energy in his music.

I have to agree with what has been said about Haydn so far. Despite an unhappy marriage, this brilliant composer wrote so many happy and uplifting compositions. I have Haydn's Paris and London Symphonies in my collection, and they're always a joy to listen to.

Two thumbs up for Papa Haydn!

The Devil’s Advocate here ... in respecting the contribution which Papa Haydn made to the development of Western music ... some of us, in looking back to the Baroque and Classical Eras, find the music dated ... precious, pretty and predictable ... but essentially anaemic,
primitively scalar and quickly forgettable.

btb -

Couldn't tell if you were referring specifically to Haydn's music - or to the Baroque and Classic eras in general.

If Haydn - please remember that he was a transitional composer - who developed the sonata form and the classical symphony. His later works are quite remarkable.

To quote Donald Grout - "His achievement was original and complete. He was not merely a forerunner of Beethoven and Romanticsm, During the course of a long and laborious personal evolution he assimilated many of the stylistic elements of the 18th century - the late Baroque, the Rococo, the expressive, the Sturm und Drang, and folk music - and out of these elements forged his own musical language. The perfected Classical style of the late 18th century owes more to Haydn than to anyone else, and owes most of all to his genius for pure instrumental form, for in this area Haydn was one of the most sophisticated of all composers. His art is characterized by the union of sophistication with honest craftsmanship, humility, purity of intention, and a never-failing spiritual contact with the life of the common people from whom he had sprung."

"Anaemic, primitively scalar and quickly forgettable??" I THINK NOT !!!

We all know that Haydn is regarded as the father of the Symphony ... but after Beethoven, Brahms and Tschaikowsky (to mention just a few) ... how dated ... forgive me if some of us cringe at time-locked sentiments like:

"His art is characterized by the union of sophistication with honest craftsmanship, humility, purity of intention, and a never-failing spiritual contact with the life of the common people from whom he had sprung."

Let's respect the old geezer in the context of the history of music ... but let's move on to bigger and better things.

This is for btb, It's Pogorelich, 1st movement of no. 46 in A flat major.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7FHHmS4msw&feature=related

The exposition is exquisite.

The greatest composer ever, according to Beethoven ... enough said!

I love the string quartets, and I have two Haydn quartet CDs in my car. They always seem fresh and new, and I find myself listening again and again as I travel down modern freeways past modern shopping malls and tall glass buildings.

What's all this about "time-locked sentiments?"

Tomasino

I agree as to Haydn's greatness, influence, and a long life spanning the Baroque and Classical period (which he helped define). However, setting aside musical contribution, a person who led a more interesting life was Haydn's pupil Hummel. Hummel spent two years as a child living in Mozart's house as a student and playmate to Mozart's children. Mozart presented him on several tours in Europe and essentially launched his career. Hummel then took lessons from Haydn, but almost gave up a career as composer and pianist when Beethoven joined the lessons as well. Hummel was overwhelmed with Beethoven's new style of passionate playing and composition. Eventually Hummel found his voice, and began performing and composing again in his own classical style. He had a falling out with Beethoven but later reconciled and was probably Beethoven's only lifelong friend. Hummel visited Beethoven in 1827 just before his death to pay his final respects. Hummel by then had become friends with a whole new generation of composers - Liszt, Schubert, Weber, and especially Chopin, who borrowed more from Hummel in terms of piano playing than he did from anybody else. Hummel ended his career in the 1830s teaching Mendelssohn.

I think that tops Haydn for knowing more of music's greatest composers intimately than anybody else.

Many people might now regard "The Rite of Spring" as predictable because the piece is, now, so well-known that it no longer surprises in the way it did when it was new.
Much of Haydn's music was very innovative; it's only due to the passage of centuries that it has lost its power to surprise....or has it? I well remember when I heard the "Surprise" symphony for the first time (Conducted by Sir Malcolm Sargent) and recall that I nearly leapt out of my seat at that (for me) unexpected explosion in the slow movement.
You have an ally in Balakirev whose views on Haydn were akin to your own ,btb, and for whom he was something of a "bete noire."

Is that really so? Beethoven's relationship with Haydn as a teacher, who failed to correct a number of errors in his pupil's exercises, was decidedly rocky and ended on a sour note.
I thought it was Handel who Beethoven revered above all others, especially towards the end of his life.

I read it in a book a couple weeks ago in the library. I was a bit surprised too. It was alo mentioned that he wrote this towards the end of his life too, maybe a mistake?

It was indeed Handel. Beethoven received several volumes of Handel's works as a gift from a fellow musician in London towards the end of his (B's) life. He remarked, just before requesting a friend to bring those volumes to his deathbed, that "Handel is the greatest and ablest of all composers; from him I can still learn." Beethoven's lovely Consecration of the House overture is often seen as an homage to Handel.

On another occasion, Beethoven remarked to an admirer, "Do not tear the laurel wreaths from the heads of Handel, Haydn and Mozart; they belong to them -- not yet to me."

As the quote above indicates, Beethoven obviously held Haydn's works in great esteem, even though he may have had reservations about his teaching. Many of Beethoven's first period works (which I am a great fan of) would not be what they are if it weren't for Papa's influence.

And count me in as another Haydn admirer. The late masses and the two late oratorios are indisputable masterpieces, and many works from his Esterhazy years are incredible and startlingly original.

One should feel sorry for - or should one even bother to empathize with? - someone who cannot take pleasure from Haydn's music for what it is and not because it is not "bigger and better" than what came after. By that criterion alone, nothing is good that is not new.

Regards,

Haydn was a great composer. His creative genius doesn't match that of Beethoven or Brahms but his output is simply stunning. He also wrote a number of great piano sonatas including, my favorite, no. 62 in E-Flat. Haydn certainly didn't take his time when composing thus he had a huge output but each one of his pieces has its own merits and the musical humor in his compositions is great!

Agreed about Beethoven, but not Brahms. I would rate Haydn's Lord Nelson Mass on the same level as any choral work of Beethoven or Brahms.

I didn't much fancy Haydn as a teen, but I've really come to appreciate his music in the last 5 or 6 years. Even the piano sonatinas (Henle publishes them in an really spiffy edition) contain untold delights.

And all that inventive writing in the piano trios. We are truly blessed.

I have to add that I told once by one of my teachers that he never had a bad word to say about anyone. This shows what kind of person he really was.

John

He was a bit of a "ladies man" too, reportedly even as late as his stay in London.

My sincere thanks to dsch for the Pogorelich U-tube playing of the Haydn Sonata in Ab major (1769-70) ... well worth a visit.

Haydn was the musical bigwig when Beethoven moved to Vienna on 10 November 1792 and took brief lessons . Beethoven refused to describe himself as Haydn's pupil on the title pages of his early works, because he said "I never learnt anything from him ".

I am now able to reconcile the inept structural format of Beethoven Sonata Opus 2 series (dedicated to Haydn) ... LB was up to his elbows in the accepted hyper-twiddly style of the period with lashings of grace note (acciaccaturas, mordants, appogiaturas, turns and trills by the wagon-load) ... it look Beethoven another 7 years to steadily dump the grace note contagion of Haydn and escape the gravitational genius of Mozart ... before coming of age with his Pathetique Sonata Opus 13.

Here's the first page of the Haydn Sonata in Ab major (46) ... to underscore the above bleat ... my apologies to those who are ashamed of earlier robust Haydn sentiments:

"precious, pretty and predictable ... but essentially anaemic, primitively scalar and quickly forgettable."

haydnsonata46in Ab major

Haydn 46 in Ab has been a favorite of mine since I first heard it 20 years ago, and it's easily one of my favorites.

"Precious and predictable ... really? I would have said Haydn was the opposite.

Have you heard the Masses? The Creation? The string quartets?

I think it is far more useful and instructive to not think of Haydn in terms of what music came after, but rather what music came BEFORE. In the same way, we could look at Beethoven today and say, "what primitive unsophisticated harmony...the never-ending use of that ridiculous diminished 7th...opus 111 sounds like silent horror movie music"

Compare Haydn with Bach and Handel, and all of a sudden he is a huge innovator, both in terms of harmony and structure. All of a sudden there is truly a melody and accompaniment texture that has dominated to this day. Haydn was really the first classicist in my opinion -- looking at CPE Bach, I can see where he was heading, but he remained firmly rooted in the musical language of his father.

In this light, Haydn becomes as much of a revolutionary as JS Bach or Beethoven.

Not to mention the fact that his big Eb sonata is unbelievable.

Great industry in itself means nothing.
When the prolific Benjamin Godard remarked to Chabrier "What a pity you started composing so late in life!" Chabrier replied "What a pity you started so early!"
Elsewhere Chabrier writes of Godard "churning" out an opera on the subject of Dante.
Personally, I like a lot of Godard's music...and Haydn's!

The greatness of Haydn's music stands on its own, without the need to measure it by what came before or after. I have been late in exploring his piano works, but the sonatas are just wonderful. I worship late Beethoven, but late Haydn can more than hold its own in such company.

And, for me, there is the inspiration of a man who lived to a ripe old age but who was still creatively exploring to the very end.