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#59778 - 01/13/09 10:19 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
paulmarcus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/08
Posts: 57
Loc: USA
turandot,

My ambition to say as little as possible to keep emotions down has failed. I certainly don't claim to know everything, but I do try to only convey my opinion or facts that I'm aware of. Most of what I conveyed comes right out of Steinway's marketing DVD... and my local Steinway dealer. However, I have played both Essex and Pearl River and it's not a fair comparison.

To answer your question.. I'm not sure exactly what patents in particular they're using although I would imagine many. For instance in action design, soundboard, scale, plate, etc. It is common knowledge that chinesse labor is rediculously cheap. Else why are so many major piano manufacturers creating pianos and using chinesse labor to assemble them? Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not know of a chinesse piano manufacturer that's building pianos by hand. It is basically an assembled piano contracted by another company.

Look at Renner for example. Many piano companies have Renner make an action specific to their application for their piano. Because Renner is in the business of making actions. The chinesse are in the business of assembling pianos.

The Essex may be a "cookie-cutter" piano, but the cookie-cutter came from Steinway. Another clarification.. only the verticals and 5'1" grand are contracted by Pearl River. All the other Essex's are being contracted by Young Chang. The only concern I would have personally is the quality of assembly by the chinesse. However, since it is warrantied by Steinway there should be some peace of mind.

There are some companies that don't design the product at all I know. They simply have an already manufactured product put a different name on it and pass it off as a new product. Personally I think is marketing fraud. I'm not aware of which or if any piano companies are doing that, but Steinway is not. In fact, all the new Essex for 2009 are now going to bear the "designed by Steinway" right on the fallboard.

How much design is Steinway's? How many patents? I don't know. This is a good question for me to ask my dealer next time I'm in.

Any further insight is welcome. I'm not here to be right.. only trying to help and share my opinion.
_________________________
Marcus

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#59779 - 01/13/09 10:33 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
mdsdurango Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 1755
Loc: Durango Colorado
I've read and re-read this thread and so have an idea of what happened with pianomadam and her shenanigans but can not be certain. Can those of you in the know please explain exactly what occured.

And what is shpeeel?

Mike
_________________________
WHAT???????
Yamaha S6, U5C, P120
http://michaelstith.com

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#59780 - 01/13/09 10:38 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
 Quote:
Any further insight is welcome. I'm not here to be right.. only trying to help and share my opinion.
Me to, Marcus. I actually like the tone of the Essex, and have said that in this forum more than once. The clean forward tone is more pleasing to me than the tone of the Boston. Of course that's subjective, but I'm on record here for never knocking the Essex PIANO.

This however is not the place to debate the Essex since apparently the OP was only our beloved pianomadam asking a phony question with a phony name to prop up (of all things) the ESSEX.

I do think there is a danger when you might influence a potential buyer here with the 'knowledge' you glean from a company DVD. That 'knowledge' is all-too-readily available at the shop. When a member asks for advice in this forum, they are hoping to get beneath that surface veneer.

As far as I know, all Steinway patents expired decades ago. Any design element they offer is freely available to any other maker who would like to incorporate it into his own design. I have often read here as well that Steinway does not employ any designers and has not employed any designers for decades. I don't know if that's true, but on the occasions when it was stated, it was never challenged.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#59781 - 01/13/09 11:16 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
Genaa Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 326
Loc: Winchester, UK
mdsdurango, this is what happened as I make it out....

it seems pianomadam posted the original thread starter 'pretending' to be someone interested in choosing between these 3 pianos... she then let a few replies trickle in from folks before 'replying' using her 'pianomadam' login to indicate she felt all were good choices but that the Essex was particularly 'neato'..

Beacon Chris however noticed a reply she had posted intending it to be from the OP 'CKlavier' thanking people for their advice and stating he was leaning towards the Essex...but she did so on the wrong IP address and login and quickly removed the post with the intention of re-posting it as CKlavier, but not quick enough as Chris not only saw it but managed to cut and paste it into a reply he was writing.... heheh - caught in the act \:\) marvellous - good spot to Chris ;\) more more!!
_________________________
Sauter Masterclass 130
----------------------
Currently working on:
Bach: French Suite no. 4
Beethoven: Op 10 no 1
Schubert: Op 90 no 3
Debussy: La Cathedrale Engloutie, Golliwog's Cakewalk, 'Clear the Room'
Balakirev / Glinka: The Lark

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#59782 - 01/13/09 11:27 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
mdsdurango Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 1755
Loc: Durango Colorado
So pianomadam - not too smart on two counts;
In the opening posts cklivier (aka pianomadam) writes: "I finally played a Charles Walter and was more impressed by the cabinet than I was the feel and sound, but it was OK, too. It had a decent amount of depth."
In pianomadams (aka cklivier) original post (copied and pasted by Beacon Cris) she writes: "Thank you everybody! The Walter is the one piano I have not tried yet and, if they are not available for less than $5,000 I guess I'll scratch that!"

Proves that nobody is a good enough liar to keep their stories straight.
Suppose we will ever see pianomadam again?

Mike
_________________________
WHAT???????
Yamaha S6, U5C, P120
http://michaelstith.com

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#59783 - 01/13/09 11:37 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
DanLaura Larson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 695
Loc: Pocatello, Idaho
 Quote:
Originally posted by mdsdurango:

Suppose we will ever see pianomadam again?

Mike [/b]
Well since she likes to create psuedonymous posters I'm sure she will be around in some form. The sock puppet show would lose dynamics and texture without her here.

Dan
_________________________
Dan and Laura Larson
Fazioli and Ibach grands
Larson Piano Studio
http://www.stoneformsart.com/

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#59784 - 01/13/09 11:56 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
anyone who is not impressed with the CW doesn't know how to play very well.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#59785 - 01/13/09 11:59 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
mdsdurango Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 1755
Loc: Durango Colorado
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
anyone who is not impressed with the CW doesn't know how to play very well. [/b]
That would be me, although I've yet to play a Walter.

I can play a rousing version of "She'll be Comin round the Mountain" though! It sounds real good on my S6!

Mike
_________________________
WHAT???????
Yamaha S6, U5C, P120
http://michaelstith.com

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#59786 - 01/13/09 12:15 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
 Quote:
Originally posted by Beacon Chris:
I can't believe I was on here just as it was happening. Frankly, I've been suspect of all these Essex threads lately!

BC [/b]
Hey, BC. I just wanted to say that my Essex thread, despite any can of worms it may have opened, had absolutely NOTHING to do with pianomadam. ;\)
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#59787 - 01/13/09 12:24 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
Rod Verhnjak Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3636
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

Exclusive Dealer For Charles R. Walter Pianos
www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


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#59788 - 01/13/09 12:34 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
Avantgardenabi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 496
When some Canadian and American piano professionals wished me to get my "butt" sued, I realized many things about some of piano professionals and their mentality... \:\(

I am sure Pianomadam was quite desperate, however, given today's economy...

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#59789 - 01/13/09 12:38 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
Rod Verhnjak Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3636
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by Avantgardenabi:
When some Canadian and American piano professionals wished me to get my "butt" sued, I realized may things about some of piano professionals and their mentality... \:\(

I am sure Pianomadam was quite desperate, however, given today's economy... [/b]
For the record Avantgardenabi is not referring to me.
_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

Exclusive Dealer For Charles R. Walter Pianos
www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


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#59790 - 01/13/09 12:39 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
Avantgardenabi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 496
Of course, not you, Rod! \:\)

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#59791 - 01/13/09 04:07 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
heh
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#59792 - 01/13/09 05:17 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
windsound Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 177
Loc: IL
Sorry to say but this is a pretty bad joke to advertise a low-end brand like Essex this way.

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#59793 - 01/13/09 06:07 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
DanLaura Larson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 695
Loc: Pocatello, Idaho
What's even sorrier is that it wasn't a joke.
_________________________
Dan and Laura Larson
Fazioli and Ibach grands
Larson Piano Studio
http://www.stoneformsart.com/

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#59794 - 01/13/09 08:50 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
DarkGreenChocolate Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 307
Loc: Michigan
I've actually HAD a last-row seat at the Wiener Volksoper! Don Giovanni--what a show!

And here I was, worried I'd been too harsh in my post...

Sometimes I think I've gotten too immersed in this website, and then this kind of thing goes on, apparently demonstrating that some others are far, far more over-invested...

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#59795 - 01/13/09 09:25 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
Beacon Chris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 441
Loc: Greenwich, CT
DGC,

The Wiener's can keep their Volksoper! My "il mio tesoro" was not exactly what they were looking for in my last audition. Seems they preferred Ottavio a slight bit "taller" and more "handsome". My wife begged to differ.

Go a little easier on yourself. You can never be too immersed in PW ;\)

BC
_________________________
Musician, Singer, Teacher, Humorist, Dad...

Member of the Faust Harrison Pianos sales team.

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#59796 - 01/13/09 09:41 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
 Quote:
The Wiener's can keep their Volksoper! My "il mio tesoro" was not exactly what they were looking for in my last audition.
OTOH, Chris, you landed the Osmin role in Madam's production of The Abduction From the Seraglio. They can't take that away from you.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#59797 - 01/13/09 10:24 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
OK, here it is: I screwed up royally! My apologies to all on this forum. I'm ashamed and appalled at the lengths I saw myself go to. I let the anonymity get the best of me. I hope I can gain your forgiveness now or sometime in the future. I do value this site and assume there will be months of scourging I will be going through for any post I put on this forum in the future, but those are the consequences I'm willing to take on.

My apologies to Steinway & Sons, those that represent the Steinway & Sons Family of Pianos, and all piano professionals for my example.

That's all for now...
_________________________
PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#59798 - 01/13/09 11:02 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Madam,

My hope is that there is no scourging. I don't think you set an example. I'm sure it's been done countless times before.

Stepping up and apologizing may have set an example though. I'd wager that's been done rarely, if at all here. Very gutsy move! It should make anyone who intends to ridicule you think twice before doing it.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

Top
#59799 - 01/13/09 11:07 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
oh.. don't worry. lots of dealers do that stuff.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#59800 - 01/14/09 12:21 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
nm
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#59801 - 01/14/09 01:12 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
Rod Verhnjak Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3636
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
It takes guts to write what you did even if we don't know who you are.

From what I understand,
what you have done has been done by others.

Perhaps an apology to Yamaha and Charles Walter would have also been in order.

_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

Exclusive Dealer For Charles R. Walter Pianos
www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


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#59802 - 01/14/09 01:21 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1474
Loc: Danville, California
Madam

I must say I am quite surprised and very impressed with your apology. How about a fresh start?

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#59803 - 01/14/09 07:03 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
Beacon Chris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 441
Loc: Greenwich, CT
Madam,

Disclosing your true identity and posting that way from now on would give you instant credibility here.

Try it - I think you would like it...

By the way, if you feel the urge to develop a multiple personality disorder again, have a Gianni Schicchi moment, i.e. something funny. (that was for you, Turandot)

Best to you,

BC
_________________________
Musician, Singer, Teacher, Humorist, Dad...

Member of the Faust Harrison Pianos sales team.

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#59804 - 01/14/09 09:59 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
Madam,

A testimony of great courage.
Above all keep on posting while preserving your own opinions and personality.

schwammerl.

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#59805 - 01/14/09 10:13 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
mdsdurango Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 1755
Loc: Durango Colorado
Likewise Madam,
I was surprised to see you post and impressed to see your apology.

Keep your head on your shoulders and above water and you will be fine. Remember; "There can be no friendship without confidence; and no confidence, without integrity".

Lost for a moment but not gone as evidenced by your actions.
I agree with Beacon Cris that more info of who you really are in your signiture line would be appropriate.

Mike
_________________________
WHAT???????
Yamaha S6, U5C, P120
http://michaelstith.com

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#59806 - 01/14/09 12:35 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
JF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 95
I'm new to the board; are things always this exciting? Double agents, smart detectives, international intrigue.....

Word to the wise: IP addresses are trackable; nobody is totally anonymous on the internet.
_________________________
Kimball 6'7" Viennese Classic
Adult re-learning after 20-years

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#59807 - 01/14/09 12:51 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
POTUS Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 5
I'm new here as well, thinking I could get a little bit more honest information than I seemed to get when shopping for a new piano.

Now I see that we're forced to be extremely skeptical even on a forum of piano lovers. And when someone is caught red handed and belatedly admits the obvious, it's considered "a testimony of great courage"?

Maybe others have more time to sift through the it all and figure out what is truthful here, but I think it'd be more helpful to the rest of us if this sort of thing was policed by the moderators and the related parties banned.

And for the record, I recently bought an Essex 123 and so far so good. And the response on page 1 that $5000 is an excellent price..I paid a lot less. But at least I know that post was by a "sales professional", so it can be read in the appropriate context.

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