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#60048 - 01/17/09 08:42 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
If I'm late for work and drive 71 MPH rather than the speed limit of 70 MPH, that is not the same as if I gratuitously have an affair and have sex with someone other than my wife. All sins are not the same and deliberate deception should not be tolerated.

What are the downsides of banning PianoMadam? None. There is no child support or custody issues to worry about. What are the upsides to banning her? Integrity, which frankly I don't expect from this place. I've been a member too long to expect that.

What are the upsides of not banning PianoMadam? None. What are the downsides of not banning PianoMadam. Well, frankly none, because there is no expectation that this place is honest. That has been proven over and over and over and over and over again.

Sorry, Frank, but that is true and it has been pointed out to you over and over and over and over again, and you don't care. You refuse to do anything about it.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#60049 - 01/17/09 08:46 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
tanjinjack Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 846
Loc: Malaysia
Wow, I finally want to make a post in this sock puppet thread.

IMHO, banning PM will not help. The damage is done, to PW, to Steinway and any other relevant person.
I read an article about the Japanese attitude's. when a Japanese commits a mistake, he will not step down to show that he is responsible for the mistake. Instead, he tries his best to recover the damage done, a way to present his responsibility on the matter. Stepping down is, IMHO, a very irresponsible act as the damage has to be recovered by other people, and in PW case, the other members.

IMHO, we, or the mod, should ask PM to make a new post. In the new post, he/she should make an apology, make a statement about his/her intention to create a sock puppet and also include words that can let prospective/new members feel safe to post here. He/she should also try to reduce the damage to Steinway, and any other relevant authorities. He/she may not disclose his/her full identity, but I guess he/she should either reveal his/her location OR name, as a way to show his/her sincerity.

After that, only she can leave, or the mod can ban her. Anyway, if she does not intend to try to recover the damages, then I will be on the line to ban her.

Just my 2 cents from a young man.

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#60050 - 01/17/09 08:57 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Then you vote "ban" because PianoMadam will not do the things you listed. No way will she EVER do the things you listed.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#60051 - 01/17/09 09:05 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10297
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
I'm having trouble grasping why we should not have a simple rule against sock puppetry. It's already supposedly forbidden, and everyone can accept that the practice is unethical. Just DO something. Declare perpetrators

personae non gratae.

Done.

take a stand.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

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#60052 - 01/17/09 09:36 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
Beacon Chris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 441
Loc: Greenwich, CT
Piano*Dad,

Or should I say "P*Daddy"

U R keepin' it real!

And no, I don't spell very gud.

BC

P.S. Go to NAMM for the day and look what happens to the thread!!!
_________________________
Musician, Singer, Teacher, Humorist, Dad...

Member of the Faust Harrison Pianos sales team.

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#60053 - 01/17/09 09:51 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Piano*Dad, take a stand? Surely you jest. PM me and I'll tell you two other places to visit if integrity in a piano/keyboard forum is actually important to you. PW lost that a long time ago.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#60054 - 01/17/09 09:54 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
U S A P T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 1645
Loc: An Indiana University
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there could be some legal ramifications for Frank for providing much more than a place to post views, however scurrilous they may be at times.

PW IS self-policing. I think we can all agree on that.
_________________________
Full-Time Music/Entrepreneurship Major: (Why not compose music AND businesses?)
Former Piano Industry Professional
************
Steinway M
Roland Atelier AT90R
************
All Posts are Snarky Unless Otherwise Noted
************

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#60055 - 01/17/09 09:59 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
Piano*Dad, take a stand? Surely you jest. PM me and I'll tell you two other places to visit if integrity in a piano/keyboard forum is actually important to you. PW lost that a long time ago. [/b]
I'm sure P*D isn't the only one interested. Would it be inappropriate to mention them by name or post links?

I don't understand why PM would not be banned. The fact that (s)he could come back under a new alias and IP, and the fact that all malevolent socks can't be detected and punished equally, doesn't mean someone should be let off the hook when caught in flagrante.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#60056 - 01/17/09 10:08 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Knapp:
 Quote:
Originally posted by turandot:
Here's the question (at long last \:D ).

Do you routinely check new memberships of industry professionals to see if in fact they are who and what they claim to be. Have you ever checked pianomadam's personal data to verify that she is connected to S&S? Have you ever checked M&B's personal data to verify that he is a dealer representing M&H and Kawai. I ask this because many here would say that pianomadam has done more (even without this incident) to make the S&S image more negative than it would be without her presence and many would say that M&B has done the same for Kawai and M&H by indirectly linking them to his many inflammatory posts attacking piano brands and piano retailers. [/b]
Unfortunately, the only way that can be done is if the member chooses to reveal his/her true personal information. Most PW members do not choose to do so, so there is nothing to verify.

Many years ago I was a member of a bbs where you didn't get any posting access at all until you provided valid personal info about who you were and it was verified. There were special forums on it that you had to provide a copy of a photo ID in order to access.

As far as revealing the name of the business you work for, it is a tough call. If I attached the name of my full time employer to my posts I would be at the mercy of getting fired if I posted something they considered inappropriate and they found out. You'll notice that most of the dealers that post the business name OWN the business.

Ken [/b]
Ken,

I'm confused. It was a while ago that I registered as a member here and my memory may be unclear, but my impression is that I needed to identify myself with some sort of personal information. That information included my true name and my personal Email. That information did not need to become a part of my tag here, but I think (unless my memory has failed me) that it was a part of the registration process.

In that sense I would assume there are two layers of disclosure: one to the forum administration which will remain private, and another to forum participants which is voluntary and will become a part of my posting signature if I so choose.

If I claim to be nothing more than a consumer hack, I see no reason that I should have to declare that in my post signature. In the absence of any resume-type information, people can assume that to be the case.

If, however, I were to declare that I was a retailer owner representing specific brands, I would think that such information should be verified before I be allowed to post here, especially if I were going to be allowed to declare THAT information in my signature. I have assumed this to be the case here. Otherwise, the potential for creating embarrassment to the professional community here through my behavior is unlimited, as is the potential that unwary consumers might attach too much significance to my opinions believing them to be the opinions of an informed industry person.

As an example, M&B has registered here and been permitted to have a signature declaring him to be a dealer representing M&H and Kawai. In the course of his posting, he has made negative comments about both M&H and Kawai. He has entered fabricated price-paid information on the price-paid thread with the obvious intent of de-valuing the market value of Estonia pianos. He has attacked the integrity of several (fellow?) retailers and manufacturer reps including Frank Woodside, Norbert, Russell Kassman, and Rich Galassini. Attacks have been extremely personal. He has declared that all pianos made in China are junk that will fall apart within a few years. If[/b] he has been permitted to do this with no necessary verification in the registration process of his claimed dealership and claimed representation of M&H and KAwai, I am astonished. I am not trying to pick on M&B here. I simply don't think it's the best atmosphere to use pianomadam as the example.

Could you please clarify this point?
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#60057 - 01/17/09 10:42 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
Piano*Dad, take a stand? Surely you jest. PM me and I'll tell you two other places to visit if integrity in a piano/keyboard forum is actually important to you. PW lost that a long time ago. [/b]
I'm sure P*D isn't the only one interested. Would it be inappropriate to mention them by name or post links?[/b]
I think so. Unless Ken gives permission. Frank won't, he never bothers to read his own board. I even sent him some emails. He has an area devoted to member pianos. I sent him photos like others in his gallery. Nothing. Several emails, nothing.

Of course I sent him money a couple of times, that was perfectly fine. He accepted that. Never a "thank you." That was BEFORE he even began soliciting money. When the Coffee Room was active a number of people then contributed to keep PW and the CR active. Frank took their money and closed down the CR. Those people left. They were very vocal about Frank taking their money.

Frank also has a number of aliases he posts under. Surprising given the little attention he gives his own board, I know.

I could go on but I won't. If anyone wants to know of two good alternate piano/keyboard forums, PM me.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

Top
#60058 - 01/17/09 11:14 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4974
Loc: boston north
Gryphon,

I am having a hard time reading you trash this place in several posts. If you don't like it, why are you here? Just to bring back bad vibes or to get members to join elsewhere from a PM to you?

Geeze.

That rials me up almost as much as sockie PM does.

I just don't get it. I'll try to say this as nice as I can. Be a part of this place or be away but don't trash the party.
_________________________
"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."

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#60059 - 01/17/09 11:37 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Terry C.:
Turnadot,
If it looks like a snake,slithers like a snake,it's a snake!! I could make an apology for my harsh remarks,but then i would be stooping to the level of pianomadam with an unsincere apology! There shall be
no such apology from me! For quite some time i held out hope that she would redeem herself!However being the snake that she is,she remains under her rock and occasionally lashes her forked tongue out in defense of her deceitful ways!
Pianomadam: Slither,slither slither! Poof! Be gone!


Be well and happy,
Terry C. \:\) [/b]
Terry,

In the course of pianomadam's stay here, I have been in the trenches many times countering her sales spiel with the facts as I understand them to be. As proof of that I would direct you to the first three pages of this thread where the issue of S&S design of the Essex was discussed. Long ago, I became convinced that pianomadam was using her space here to present a particular point of view that favored her stated affiliation. While this is certain par for the course here in terms of opportunisitc dealer posting, I also found that some of her responses under her avatar gave the appearance of being written by different individuals. My own decision was and is to simply counter her slanted agenda with facts in evidence. Those facts do not include a fact that Essex is a bad piano. In my experience it is not. I have tried to indicate that in responses that I make out of a sense of fairness.

In this thread pianomadam got caught with her hand in the cookie jar. Since that time members have come from far and wide to castigate her. I suppose this is what has been referred to in this thread a while back as "the public good". Your comment that pianomadam is a snake crawling away on her belly does not support any true notion of "the public good" if such a thing in fact even exists.

After being caught, pianomadam could have simply slithered away never to post again under her avatar. She did not do that. She posted that she had screwed up, was appalled by the extent she had allowed her anonymity to do something truly unethical, apologized to one and all, and said that she expected to be scourged for her behavior. To me, this is not crawling away on your belly. She has also stated in this thread that were she to be banned, it would be deserved.

At this point the questions gravitate toward this forum's set of rules, precedents, and the level of enforcement. I do not think descriptions of pianomadam as a reptile, a whore, or other emotionally-charged metaphors are a necessary part of enforcing the rules. If it is apparent to me that a decision will be based on the vehemence of such emotional reactions, I will not post in this forum in the future because I do not wish to be part of a forum that panders to member sentiment rather than enforcing its rules. I have said repeatedly and consistently that I have no problem with a decision that permanently bans pianomadam from this forum, providing it is based on an application of the rules and not her level of popularity or unpopularity.

 Quote:
originally posted by the Journey
As pianomadam would say (and turandot apparently would agree), "Why throw the baby out with the bath water?" [/b]
Journey,

This is a gross misstatement of a position I have stated clearly and consistently. I understand your good intent to make this forum a better place. I also understand that in executing your good intent you are often sloppy with your research. If there is any baby here, it would be Jonathan Hunt (Diaphragmatic) and Jman. As Jeff Bauer stated, pianomadam has made Jonathan's mountain twice as high and added cacti along the terrain.

Jonathan has posted with full disclosure. He has also verified that Jman is in fact what he always claimed to be: a piano teacher with a business relationship to Jonathan's dealership. Though I personally never agreed much with Jman's posts and may not agree with everything Jonathan has to say, I respect the fact that they are sincere and transparent in their efforts to affect change in the somewhat negative general perception in this forum that S&S sub lines do not stack up well against other competitive products at their pricepoints.

Another baby that could be maimed if not thrown out completely is the entire retailer membership in this forum. It has been stated that this incident tarnishes S&S. I don't think that is true if people exercise common sense. It has however tarnished the image in this forum of all participating retailers. As some members here advance their opinion that this forum has routinely been manipulated by retailers over the years with the silent acquiescence of its administration, the level of trust which consumers place in participating retailers will diminish, in many cases undeservedly. Had a clear decision been made immediately, or a temporary restaining order gone into effect to muzzle pianomadam until a decision could be made, this creeping distrust could have been minimized, if not completely eliminated.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

Top
#60060 - 01/17/09 11:44 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
nutchai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 227
Loc: Australia, Western Australia
It would be nice to see an actual decision by Frank on this whole mess soon..
_________________________
nUtChAi

Kawai K-5

"You are the music while the music lasts" - T.S. Eliot (1888 - 1965)

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#60061 - 01/17/09 11:52 AM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
doremi Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 1688
 Quote:
Originally posted by turandot:
It has however tarnished the image in this forum of all participating retailers. As some members here advance their opinion that this forum has routinely been manipulated by retailers over the years with the silent acquiescence of its administration, the level of trust which consumers place in participating retailers will diminish, in many cases undeservedly. Had a clear decision been made immediately, or a temporary restaining order gone into effect to muzzle pianomadam until a decision could be made, this creeping distrust could have been minimized, if not completely eliminated. [/b]
Society/Internet/PW have a bottom drawer like drawer chest. One can try, but the bottom drawer will always have some content.

Does not mean that PW should or should not ban in this case.

In any case, it's up to everyone in society/Internet/PW to deal with the ever present bottom drawer.
_________________________
I am doremi because I play scales
Had I progressed to playing chords, I would be domisol

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#60062 - 01/17/09 12:04 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
if we stand back and look at this from Frank's point of view, I think it may be naive for anyone to expect him to do much when people misbehave.

Frank is interested in volume. He wants a large number of members (even if many of them are long gone) and he wants a large number of searches, page hits and so on. He has stated that PW is now his business and income stream, so he is incentivized to maintain that.

You may think that having a forum with integrity is important. Bt it is not as important to the owner, I suspect, as having a lot of activity. Potential advertisers like activity. They think there a lot of people possibly looking at their ads.

Threads like this generate activity, as do the controversial misdeeds of the likes of Pianomadam.

Forget perfect integrity. You would then have only a few people posting. But the forum is largely about entertainment and passing a few minutes on the internet having fun, as much as it is about really informing newbies.

So - see it for what it really is. Everyone has thoroughly enjoyed the dreadful scandal of yet another sockie being outed. Big deal. But not very important really.

Adrian
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#60063 - 01/17/09 12:23 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
Mr. Kia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 179
Loc: Northeast, USA
Bingo AJB!
_________________________
Piano Technician

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#60064 - 01/17/09 12:29 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
nutchai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 227
Loc: Australia, Western Australia
And I have to agree with Turandot here...

Although what PianoMadam has done here has been quite unethical... it still points to the fact that she should only be banned on the basis of breaking the above-mentioned rules and NOT on the basis of her popularity.

If the latter were to occur, this forum would simply become a cyber high school.
_________________________
nUtChAi

Kawai K-5

"You are the music while the music lasts" - T.S. Eliot (1888 - 1965)

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#60065 - 01/17/09 12:29 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
i don't know how helpful it is to second guess Frank's intentions, particularly since there seem to be many guesses.

one would hope that all would post with good will ......... that is simply not the case.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#60066 - 01/17/09 12:42 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
I disagree with you Apple. There is no need to second guess anyone's intentions. It is commercially obvious. Frank has said PW is his main, or only, business. It is an internet business that must depend largely on advertising, plus a few sales, and the advertising depends on volume.

PW is not damaged by this at all - as I posted on another thread, having thought about it a bit. The thread will soon disappear into the mire and will be forgotten and not even seen by most newbies.

It most likely does not damage Steinway et al either. The brand gets more attention and curiosity will be aroused that could well carry people into stores to see what all the fuss is about with these Essex piano and the much better (allegedly) Charles Walters.

The dealers who post here also probably have no negative emerging from it all. The good ones come across with integrity anyway, and their shopfront is getting visible on an internet site that is highly active. Win/win.

The argument is largely a load of hot air. It is in Frank's best interests to let it ride for a while and in my view it is naive to suppose otherwise.

It may be even more productive to have another thread later on explaining why Pianomadam and her range of sockies has been banned. Then everyone can comment on that at length too. It all adds to ....the entertainment! And will generate lots of volume ;-)

Adrian
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#60067 - 01/17/09 01:31 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
there is much to be perceived here besides the commercially obvious.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#60068 - 01/17/09 02:18 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
Perhaps, but making cryptic remarks does not aid anyones perception.

Incidentally I do not have a problem with anyone seeking the removal of Pianomadam. I just happen to disagree with the frequently repeated statement that it is all bad. bad for the business, Piano World and so on. In reality it is a pimple on the moon.

Some posters like to assume that PW is a beacon of truthful virtue in the piano world. And so misbehavior results in indignation. Oh my goodness, how awful! Everyone who has been here a while knows that PW suffers from the same issues as all internet forums: nonsense mixed with good advice, bias, puppetry, entertainment, dealers promoting stuff, misinformation and bashing, and so on.

So lets accept reality and move on to the next drama.

I expect Pianomadwoman already has another ID in any case.

A
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#60069 - 01/17/09 02:27 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
bluekeys Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 1337
My, my, my, how this thread has grown since I last passed through the gates of Mordor into the dark realm! The Inquisitioners have donned their black robes and oiled up their interrogation wheels. The forum must be pure! There are rules, and there must be consequences! And there are principles involved that require erudite analysis and discussion. Studies must be conducted and councils convened. This is, after all, a matter of such crushing importance that work, family, and mere playing of pianos must go on hold until we write 20 or 30 postings each that analyze it from every conceivable angle.

Thanks to those who found my earlier bit of whimsy amusing, but I just don't have the stamina for this place. I'm going back to the ABF!

(Don't flame me. I kid 'cuz I luv)

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#60070 - 01/17/09 02:37 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
Jeff Bauer Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 1718
Loc: Los Angeles
last two posts are my favs. BlueKeys, I laughed out loud at your first, very well done.
_________________________
Jeff Bauer | Keyboard Concepts

Yamaha | Schimmel | Bösendorfer | Knabe | Seiler | Restored Steinway

BauerHouse Productions

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#60071 - 01/17/09 02:46 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by AJB:
Perhaps, but making cryptic remarks does not aid anyones perception.

[/b]
some people can understand them \:D
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#60072 - 01/17/09 02:51 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
 Quote:
Well, this is what happens when you live in a different time zone - and go abroad for a day. I can't believe that an eight page thread suddenly appeared.
AJB,

This is how you trumpeted your arrival in this thread. Though it is true that we live in different time zones, the elapsed time between a member's posts is accurate and consistent if both posts are measured according to the same time zone.

At the time of your last forum post before your dramatic entrance here, this thread had already accumulated 5 of those 8 pages that you refer to and 115 posts had been made. The thread did not initiate or develop during your absence. Those preciou$ page views that you allude to as being the only interest of management here were already topping the charts. \:D

I realize that travel from country to country in Europe is quite facile and that you cherish your image as the boy-wonder James bond of Fleet Street by way of the World Bank in NYC. I am also aware that at other times you have entered threads saying something to the effect of 'lookee here what all has happened in my absence'. \:D Hey, as you have noted, entertainment value is not to be sneezed at. \:D

Apple has recently stated that there is much of value here beyond commercial enterprise. I support that view wholeheartedly. There are many who come here to navigate a purchase in a tricky product arena who receive invaluable help. I have personally received follow-up thank you letters from members who I had no specific recollection of helping. I have actually visited a couple of those members to meet them and see their pianos. I'm not boasting here. I'm just giving an example of the help which this place can and does afford people. There are others here who provide practical and valuable guidance superior to mine.

At this point you have apparently decided to toss everything out with the bathwater..equating this website to tabloid journalism such as it is practiced in your country and mine. You have also stated that EVERYONE enjoys the drama of a witch hunt and that entertainment quite naturally takes precedence over information.

You are certainly entitled to that view since apparently you are satisfied to come here as a diversion and seek nothing further. However, I think this forum is different things to different people and that there is genuine sadness on the part of many (including me) to see it floundering in such an unfortunate situation.

So while I would not dispute at all your view that it is what it is as viewed from one's own perspective, I would remind you that the vantage point of superiority upon which you place yourself is not shared by all that many others.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#60073 - 01/17/09 02:55 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4974
Loc: boston north
T-

do you EVER run out of words?

;\)

I can't even plough through the last one...expecting the same things you have said previously...

but please...don't let 'me' stop you!!!!
_________________________
"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."

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#60074 - 01/17/09 03:23 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4288
Loc: Cincinnati
I think trying to divine Frank's thinking on this is both pointless and a wee bit insulting. He's been here longer than anyone and, agree with him or not, he's the host.

I've never known him to be keen on dishonest activity on this board. He just doesn't jump at every shadow. Let the man enjoy NAMM in peace. This can wait.
_________________________
Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'

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#60075 - 01/17/09 03:39 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
Turandot/William - you are basically a ranter. I find it hilarious how easily you bite. Verbose and frequently drifting away from the point into your diatribes. You reckon I missed the first 5 pages. You may well be right! Who cares - certainly not me. Do you not grasp irony? I dip into Piano World usually when I am not busy with something else. Given that the most important part of my family lives in a different country to me, I am often sat around at airports. Europe is a bit different to your neck of the woods.

And you are right, I can easily be mistaken for Bond. Unfortunately it is Brook Bond (of the PG tIps variety).

Get over yourself. You and I rarely share the same perspective. It is not personal. It just adds to the richness of the dialogue.

Now, if you have got something useful to say that is on topic, go at it old chap! We are close to dinner time shut down for PW in the UK, so your amazingly witty response will have to wait until the morning for me.

Kind regards

Adrian
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#60076 - 01/17/09 03:43 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
ftp Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 2365
Loc: Philadelphia
At the end of the day this is Frank's site and he is free to do as he pleases. It's up to him to sort out all the free advice he has been given by those who have free access. PW is free in many senses of the word. Being free has pros and cons--features and functions are missing, desired reaction times are not met, sock puppets have some ability to roam freely in his absence.

I tend to agree with P*D and others that known malicious sock puppets and their owners should be banned- it's a risk they can take with known consequences if they get caught.

PW is also part entertainment, part community, part unselfish advice. It should operate based on the priniciple of good will by everyone (as Apple states)although with all the egos involved of course it will get unruly from time to time. Ben Franklin advocated moderation in everything including moderation. I agree with AJB, whom I have personally found to be very unselfish in assistance on a few matters, that this place is also entertainment- I believe he may have suggested to take the pixels too seriously may be bad for your health.

I have no doubt that PW will sort all this out. This thread reminds me of a famous quote "To retain respect for laws and sausages, one must not watch them in the making".

Ironically PM's two part invention would likely have fooled no one as her(?) comments are always subject to reality checks. Regardless the behavior I'm sure will be dealt with appropriately when Frank has a free moment.

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#60077 - 01/17/09 04:32 PM Re: SOCK PUPPET ALERT: Essex, Yamaha, Charles Walter
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 258
Loc: Trent Woods, NC
First (and only) comment:

The NAMM show very likely is considered important in a business sense to Frank - otherwise (especially since PW seems to presently be the main source of personal revenue), he would not have paid the air fare, the hotel reservations, meal expense, and so forth; in order to attend.

From postings on another forum by people who are at NAMM - there is no direct Internet access at the NAMM show (at least not for the attendees). It is completely unknown if there is access in his lodgings. Trade shows are typically places where one not only gets to see new merchandise, but opportunities to meet and schmooze with potential suppliers AND clients. Most of the trade cannot justify the expense just to see the new toys - they are there to actively pursue business.

Frank could very well be busy after the public showings each day - getting potential advertisers, maybe lining up other opportunities in his line of work. The show is not infinitely long - far from it. The trip back to Florida is only a day.

Several posters seem to have taken personal offense that Frank has not yet taken action - GIVE HIM SOME SLACK!!!!!!!!!! This matter really does not rank right up with news like short supplies of heating gas in Europe, change of leadership in the US, even a plane falling into the Hudson river. Rhett Butler would really say, "frankly, my dear, I don't give a d**n."

I'm not really sure which is more pathetic - the original sham - or (presently) 14 pages largely filled with vitriol over the matter. Do what I'm going to do - get back to the keyboard (musical, not computer), and work on improving technique.

Jim
_________________________
Jim Cason
Promised LAN Computing, Inc.
Howard C171 Grand, Kurzweil PC3X, PC3, PC361, PC2X, PC2.
JBL 10&15 EONG2s, EV SxA100+s QSC K10s, HP & ThinkPad DAWs, eMu 1820M & 1616M.
Epi Les Paul & LP 5str Bass, Trace amp-cabinets.
Formerly in electronic keyboard repair trade - semi-retired

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