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#598651 - 01/17/04 04:21 PM I can't stand this!
BDB Offline
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Loc: Oakland
All these posts about one's favorite sonata by Wolfgang van Debussy brought to mind an article that I read many years ago, back when there were fairly good critics out there. They asked several critics what music they liked the least.

Of course, the piece most often chosen was a piece that I really like. (Any guesses? Hint: 20th century chamber work with keyboard.)

It makes sense that the critics would have chosen pieces that make a strong impression. After all, you forget the truly forgettable. There were a lot of really good musicians in the 19th century who hated Beethoven's 9th Symphony.

How many of you know which works Beethoven was famous for when he was alive? What was Liszt's most popular piece while he was living? What were the most popular symphonies of the 19th century? If you know the answers to these questions, you'll know that asking people what they like is no guarantee of how history will judge them. (I'll let people guess for a while before I give those answers.)

But the big question is: What pieces do you really not like? I'll start with one:

Rachmaninov's 3rd Concerto. I like some of his music, but not all of it. This concerto seems to be a lot of ornamentation in search of a good melody. It's so frustrating that it always seems to be so close to being a good piece, but isn't. I like the other three a lot better.
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#598652 - 01/17/04 05:20 PM Re: I can't stand this!
kathyk Offline
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Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
How about pieces. Bruckner's symphonies. Never, ever have I enjoyed them. To be they're utterly boring bombast.

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#598653 - 01/17/04 05:29 PM Re: I can't stand this!
Praetorian_AD Offline
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Registered: 12/24/01
Posts: 717
Loc: England
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:

Rachmaninov's 3rd Concerto. I like some of his music, but not all of it. This concerto seems to be a lot of ornamentation in search of a good melody. It's so frustrating that it always seems to be so close to being a good piece, but isn't. I like the other three a lot better. [/b]
Right, I'm not letting this one slip - I can understand people criticising Rachmaninov for being too melodious, such as musicians who have learned to appreciate other aspects of music more, but 'in search of a good melody'?? Where do I start?!

The first 20 or 30 bars of this piece constitute one of the strongest and most memorable melodies the composer ever wrote, whether you like his music or not. A stepwise melody reminiscent of Russian church music, played in simple octaves on the piano, it is the absolute essence of simplicity! As for the other movements, if you look hard enough, there is always a very simple melody at the heart of each, as in almost all his other pieces.

Peter

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#598654 - 01/17/04 06:38 PM Re: I can't stand this!
EHpianist Offline
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Registered: 04/27/03
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Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
BDB, what a great idea! Psychologists know that any decent poll should always ask questions where people are generally forced to reply negatively as human psychology makes us more willing to agree with what someone says than disagree, so a negative response is a more thought-out and realistic one.

I know someone will bash me for this one, and not only have I really tried to like it, but I love almost everything else in the 20th Century...I have never warmed to Hindemith. His music has never moved me emotionally or intellectually in any way.

I hate Philip Glass.

I am starting to hate The Nutcracker and I absolutely DETEST Tchaikovsky's 1st Piano Concerto and deeply dislike the Grieg Piano Concerto.

Can't think of anything else at the moment.

Elena
http://www.concertpianist.com
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#598655 - 01/17/04 07:55 PM Re: I can't stand this!
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13758
Loc: Iowa City, IA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Praetorian_AD:
The first 20 or 30 bars of Rachmaninoff's 3rd concerto constitute one of the strongest and most memorable melodies the composer ever wrote, whether you like his music or not.[/b]
Yep. But name a catchy theme in the next 600 bars. I can't seem to hear one underneath all the millions of notes of figuration and filigree. \:\)

Seriously, though. I've always liked the 2nd concerto more.

Okay, pieces I hate:

That HIDEOUS Chorale, Prelude, and Waste of Time by Caesar Franck.

That amorphous pile of slosh that Liszt called Funerailles. (Don't really like the Vallee d'Oberman either...)

Faure's Dolly Suite. It's just plain stupid.


Now, masterpieces that I recognize as being very important and profound works, but that just don't seem to "do it" for me:

Beethoven Op. 111 - too long, I get bored

Beethoven 5th Piano Concerto, last mvt. - I just hate the theme. It's just a damn Eb Major arpeggio. Does nothing for me, I just don't get it...

Schubert's last sonata. (Bb, D. 960) First movement: A-, second movement: A+, third movement: B+, fourth movement: D. I'd rather hear the first two movements twice than have to listen to the second half of this sonata.

The first two Schumann sonatas. How the composer of the wonderous and sublime Opp. 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21, 22, 23, and 26 could have possibly thought Opp. 11 and 14 were a good idea is a mystery to me. More mysterious is why Perahia made a recording of it and yet even more mystifying than that is that people actually purchased it.
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#598656 - 01/17/04 08:24 PM Re: I can't stand this!
PhJ. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 170
Loc: Brussels
 Quote:
Originally posted by EHpianist:
I absolutely DETEST Tchaikovsky's 1st Piano Concerto and deeply dislike the Grieg Piano Concerto.
[/b]
never understood what people found in those either.
I have never really understood Brahms's second rhapsody op.79, as much as I adore almost everything else he wrote.

The rigoletto Liszt thing drives me up the wall too. (when I was a student, the girl having her lesson before me one year (lesson whose last 15 min. I used to listen too) spent some good weeks on it )

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#598657 - 01/17/04 08:50 PM Re: I can't stand this!
pepper Offline
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Registered: 11/13/01
Posts: 171
Loc: SF CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kreisler:
Yep. But name a catchy theme in the next 600 bars. I can't seem to hear one underneath all the millions of notes of figuration and filigree. \:\)

Hey, they pop up everywhere - I'm singing them for you now but I guess you can't hear me (which is good). I more often than not play only these parts (just for me - I do not perform this concerto) and there are some beautiful melodies.

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#598658 - 01/18/04 06:17 AM Re: I can't stand this!
EHpianist Offline
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Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1703
Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kreisler:
[QUOTE]

That HIDEOUS Chorale, Prelude, and Waste of Time by Caesar Franck.[/b]

LOL. I agree! Also about the Dolly Suite (Sounds like a film crew's hotel room), we have managed to steer clear of it up to now!

Elena
http://www.concertpianist.com
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#598659 - 01/18/04 07:44 AM Re: I can't stand this!
DW_mod Offline
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Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 117
My fav are Sea Symphony by Vaughan Williams, Pino Comcerto in Bflat major by Brahms, The Planets by Holst, Vocalise by Rach, Double Concerto for 2 violins by Bach, Brandenburg 2 movement 2 by Bach. Sorry, hard to just name a few. Soooo many wonderful songs...

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#598660 - 01/18/04 07:49 AM Re: I can't stand this!
ChickGrand Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 3202
Loc: Midwest U.S.
 Quote:
Originally posted by DW_mod:
...The Planets by Holst... [/b]
An old favorite of mine from more than 30 years ago. When I heard it last week after many, many years, I was absolutely impressed anew at how powerful and compelling the work really is.

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#598661 - 01/18/04 11:53 AM Re: I can't stand this!
BDB Offline
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I think The Planets is only a lesser piece of trash, not true garbage.

Nobody has come up with any answers to my little questions, so I thought I would give a hint on one and the answer to another. The piece most often disliked by the critics is a concerto for keyboard and 5 mixed instruments. The keyboard is not a piano.

Beethoven's most popular pieces in his lifetime were the battle symphony, Wellington's Victory, and his Septet. He rearranged the Septet a couple of times (he had to make money somehow), so that many of you may have played a movement of it. Anyone know as what?

I mentioned elsewhere that I really don't like Schubert's Fantasy in f-minor for piano duet. It just seems to hop from one emotional state to another, without really being particularly definite about any of them. I don't know how it has managed to get so popular for duet teams, given the wealth of better pieces Schubert wrote for that combination.

I agree that Bruckner is pretty boring. I think most of Mahler's Symphonies are a waste of time, too. He wrote some good songs, though.
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#598662 - 01/18/04 12:30 PM Re: I can't stand this!
mrenaud Online   content
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Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 1308
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
Nobody has come up with any answers to my little questions, so I thought I would give a hint on one and the answer to another. The piece most often disliked by the critics is a concerto for keyboard and 5 mixed instruments. The keyboard is not a piano.[/b]
De Falla - harpsichord concerto?

And I strongly dislike (I don't like the word "hate"), amongst others, Tchaikovsky's piano concerto no. 1, the Grieg concerto (both of which have already been mentioned), Brahms' piano concerto no. 2 (it goes on and on and on and on, wasn't it Brahms himself who said: "When in doubt about a musical theme, cut it out"?) and Chopin's piano concerto no. 1 (what I said about the Brahms no. 2 also applies here).

I also don't like the music of Bach and Mozart (with some exceptions: Mozart's symphony no. 40 and Bach's toccata and fugue in d (yes, THAT one)).
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#598663 - 01/18/04 01:08 PM Re: I can't stand this!
F# Offline
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Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 42
The minuet of Op.49 No.2 was used in the Septet.

The sonata came before the Septet. It was in fact compsed much earlier than it's opus number suggests: around the time of the Op.2 sonatas.

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#598664 - 01/18/04 01:30 PM Re: I can't stand this!
plays88skeys Offline
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Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 3091
Loc: Richmond, VA
I'll probably get shot for this, but I despise Schubert's Wanderer Fantasie.
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#598665 - 01/18/04 02:44 PM Re: I can't stand this!
Mr. Gould Offline
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Registered: 12/07/01
Posts: 1111
Someones gonna kill me but I find most of Beethoven Sonata's/ Piano Concerto's annoying. Mozarts my man \:D
Never been a big fan of Schubert, Bartok -BLAH-, Weber, Schumann.

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#598666 - 01/18/04 04:04 PM Re: I can't stand this!
pianoloverus Online   content
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Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19218
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Classical Player:
Someones gonna kill me but I find most of Beethoven Sonata's/ Piano Concerto's annoying. Mozarts my man \:D
Never been a big fan of Schubert, Bartok -BLAH-, Weber, Schumann. [/b]
Which other composers do you like?

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#598667 - 01/18/04 04:22 PM Re: I can't stand this!
valarking Offline
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Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 2331
Loc: Dallas
Ok, let's see, what do I ... Well, first off, I don't think it counts if you a piece for being overplayed. This applies for the Grieg and the Tchaikovsky 1.
I want to second Elena's statement about Philip Glass. He writes some of the most boring, ridiculous pieces in existence. I would rather listen to Satie's 840 repititions of Vexations than half a CD of Philip Glass or any of the other composers trying to profit from the so-called "Minimalist" movement, a movement that requires no musical skill, talent or investment.
I also dislike alot of John Cage. He has some good stuff occasionally, but for the most part, I think his "music" is just making a statement which I couldn't care less about.
I dislike many classical symphonies, especially those of Mozart and Haydn. Mozart was writing most of the time to just put food on the table, with a few exceptions (Sonata in Amin, anyone?) and Haydn was pretty much forced to do all 120+, thus, most of them have a forgettable theme and a cut and paste layout. Much of Chopin's Sonatas.
Ravel's Bolero. Ugh, it's cute to stay on the same melody for about 5 minutes, but then I must change to something else.
Telemann keyboard works, he just ed out too many.
CLEMENTI SONATINAS. I had to listen to about 6 different people play the Dmaj one for a JURY. ARGGG.

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#598668 - 01/18/04 04:50 PM Re: I can't stand this!
EHpianist Offline
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Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1703
Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
I mentioned elsewhere that I really don't like Schubert's Fantasy in f-minor for piano duet. It just seems to hop from one emotional state to another, without really being particularly definite about any of them. I don't know how it has managed to get so popular for duet teams, given the wealth of better pieces Schubert wrote for that combination. [/b]
BDB, I can understand why you find the Fantasy rather "chopped" though I think bad interpretations of the piece (which, sad to say, are most of them) really kill it. It is a very hard piece to pull off for precisely this reason...but I see it differently. Take into consideration that it was written a few months before his death, (he was already suffering from syphilis)and is dedicated to a student he was purportedly desperately in love with, though nothing would come of it as she was nobility. In Schubert's own words:

In a word, I feel I’m the most unhappy, most wretched man in the world. Imagine a man whose health will never be sound again and who in despair only makes it worse and not better; imagine a man, I say, whose most shining hopes have come to naught, for whom the bliss of love and friendship offers nothing but the greatest pain, for whom the passion (at least something stimulating) for beauty threatens to die away, and ask yourself then if that isn’t one wretched, unhappy man?—“My peace is gone, heavy is my heart, find it again shall I never, never again,” [there are the lyrics to his lieder Gretchen am Spinnrade] this I can certainly sing now every day, for every night when I go to bed I hope I’ll never wake up, and every morning only reminds me of yesterday’s grief.

To me the opening theme has such longing in it, so much weighs in his mind which sometimes pulls him down, other times he tries to forget about it in the beauty of a duet or in the memory of a dance, but the reality of his life is still there and always haunts him throughout the piece (hence the reinstatements of the theme). The very last time the theme is played, there is a change in harmony which is to me one of the most special moments in duet music, so beautiful, just within his reach, but it escapes him and he ends completely resigned to his fate. Structurally speaking it may not be one of his masterpieces but
it is very emotionally charged...for me that is... ;\)

I'm afraid I have no idea what concerto you are referring to. Am dying to find out!

Elena
http://www.concertpianist.com
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#598669 - 01/18/04 05:21 PM Re: I can't stand this!
David Burton Offline
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Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1757
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
Well, so far I'm absolutely with Peter on Rachmaninoff's third concerto, easily my favorite of the four.

And Elena's hatred for the works of Phillip Glass, and her sheer tiredness of the work of Tchaikovsky and Grieg made me laugh. Of course they're tiresome. I recently heard Lang Lang's strange reading of the Tchaikovsky. It made me long for Van Cliburn's. But the music can still be very tiresome; the clichés are already more outdated than most of Beethoven. Whoever it was who told Tchaikovsky that his concerto was "vulgar" could have made the same complaint about Grieg's too, especially the first movement, an amputated sonata allegro that set a bad precedent for the future and made it acceptable for composers to skimp on formal considerations especially in a flashy piano concerto. Note that Rachmaninoff didn't do this.

I'm not sure that Caesar Franck was really that great a composer. I don't know. He was an organist. Even though Bach was too, and perhaps the greatest ever, somehow he was far more than just an organist. And Bruckner? Well, he took a very long time for me to even stand. Then I heard he was an organist and I said, "aha, that's it. he wrote symphonies that should be heard as if the orchestra was some vast organ." It doesn't help much, except that Bruckner's ninth is so weird that I just have to like it sometimes.

Of The Planets by Holst, try listening to it for traces of minimalism. I think you'll be amazed. But BDB, and I trust many others, merely accord this work "only a lesser piece of trash."

He says, "I mentioned elsewhere that I really don't like Schubert's Fantasy in f-minor for piano duet. It just seems to hop from one emotional state to another, without really being particularly definite about any of them. I don't know how it has managed to get so popular for duet teams, given the wealth of better pieces Schubert wrote for that combination."

Because in its way and depending on how it's played it's a deep and tragic piece. The emotional changes should be handled with agility and quickness and that includes what the pianists are supposed to express. The piece asks a lot of its performers.

And Mahler is an acquired taste for most people.

Mrenaud doesn't like Brahms' second or Chopin's first concertos. Well, that's too bad, but everything is overplayed compared to any time in history. I don't listen to classical music like top ten radio. Some people do. I think it might spoil one's hearing to hear music all the time.

It seems true though that very often a composer's best pieces are not his big flashy concertos. But why do we have these pieces? For the audience to get a good idea of what the pianist can do physically, not necessarily musically. I'm considering a new compositional style in piano concertos; the pianist just sits there and plays half a dozen notes against the dazzling harmonic shivers of the small orchestra. Might work.

I'm not sure John Cage was really a composer. Not sure what he was.

Vararking seems tired of the whole 18th century set of clichés and getting tired of the 19th's as well. It's a pity that music is such a young art form compared with the others. It's easy to get bored, harder to find (discover) the music that IS music but breaks new ground. Why am I skeptical about finding this new ground among the various "world musics" out there? I don't know, I'm just as likely to get real tired of it.

A lot of other music makes me more tired than classical; rap, hip hop (maybe the same?), most pop music, movie music, sports music, the piano used as a backdrop to some tear jerking bid to get some money out of me for the support of people with MS, or something about children, cupid.com etc.

I think all musicians need to be aware of how their consciousness of music is affected by too much ear trash, including listening to some old overworked warhorse of a piece too often.

I fight boredom every day, musical and otherwise.
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#598670 - 01/18/04 05:22 PM Re: I can't stand this!
plays88skeys Offline
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Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 3091
Loc: Richmond, VA
Elena, I really like your comments on the Schubert f minor duet. I've always thought the piece, overall, was mournful (like a lot of his works) but never knew there was a story behind it. Now I can't wait to listen to it again from this new perspective. Thank you!
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#598671 - 01/18/04 06:02 PM Re: I can't stand this!
BDB Offline
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Posts: 21244
Loc: Oakland
mrenaud is correct. The piece the critics disliked was Manuel De Falla's Harpsichord Concerto. It's a perfect example of a piece that people will either love or hate. Either you can't get into it at all, or you really love its crunchiness. It evokes strong emotions either way.

And of course, the Sonatas of Op. 49 were the source of the Minuet of the Beethoven Septet. They were published much later than written without Beethoven's approval. He also arranged the Septet for piano, clarinet and cello. It's just like the contradance which was recycled into a ballet, Creatures of Prometheus, piano variations, and the Eroica Symphony.

It's taken me a while to come out and say that for the most part, I don't like Ive's music. I listened to it for a while, and although there are parts which are interesting, they don't make up for the greater portion which just seems childish. I much prefer Cowell.

Incidentally, Liszt's most popular piece in his lifetime was the Grand Galop Chromatique. The two most popular symphonies of the 19th Century both have names. One was written by someone you have probably never heard of, the other by someone who gets mentioned here from time to time.
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#598672 - 01/18/04 06:06 PM Re: I can't stand this!
EHpianist Offline
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Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1703
Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
 Quote:
Originally posted by plays88keys:
I've always thought the piece, overall, was mournful (like a lot of his works) but never knew there was a story behind it. Now I can't wait to listen to it again from this new perspective. Thank you! [/b]
Please keep in mind that this is MY interpretation of what lies behind the piece taking into account what is known about his life at the time. I can't claim to receive classified information from the composer himself out of the netherworld...as some other pianists seem to e able to! For all I know he could have been getting over a hangover from the previous night ;\) But to me his emotional state at that time, as demonstrated by his letters, is very clearly reflected in this work.

Elena
http://www.concertpianist.com
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#598673 - 01/18/04 06:07 PM Re: I can't stand this!
F# Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 42
Tchaikovsky Pathétique?

[/uneducated guess]

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#598674 - 01/18/04 06:14 PM Re: I can't stand this!
EHpianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1703
Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
 Quote:
Originally posted by David Burton:
And Elena's hatred for the works of Phillip Glass, and her sheer tiredness of the work of Tchaikovsky and Grieg made me laugh. [/b]
It is NOT tiredness, I think the pieces are just c**p. I even played the Tchaik, or at least was forced to until my teacher gave up arguing with me. I tried to find some redeeming quality to it, but there was none to be had. Fluff, all of it.

Elena
http://www.concertpianist.com
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#598675 - 01/19/04 12:53 AM Re: I can't stand this!
BDB Offline
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Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21244
Loc: Oakland
 Quote:
Tchaikovsky Pathétique?
No way! These two symphonies are now so obscure that chances are that you wouldn't have heard of one composer, and if you had heard of the other, it would have been more likely as a pianist, not as a composer.
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#598676 - 01/19/04 01:54 AM Re: I can't stand this!
CrashTest Offline
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Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 4110
BDB, this is a dangerous topic. Some of the responses have hurt deep down.

Let me just give some counterpoint arguments before I mention the pieces I do not fancy. Bach was mentioned here, and I fail to see why. To me, he is perfection, beauty and intellect. I have not heard one work of his I dislike. But I accept that we all have tastes.

I heard my teacher performance the Cesar Choral, prelude, and fugue, and it was very convincing. I do not think it is such a bad piece, it just needs the right touch and interpretation.

Boy, am I glad that not too much contemporary music has been mentioned thus far! It is usually the biggest victim. As for Philip Glass, in general, I do not listen to his music as passionately as I do to Bach or other composers, but I enjoy some of it very much regardless. True, it is often simple, but sometimes you find some very enjoyable instances. John Cage was very much a composer, and inventor as he liked to call himself. His works for prepared piano are very interesting, and deserve more merit.

As to what I dislike, it is a bit more difficult. I cannot say that I completely dislike these pieces, but I just find myself not listening to them much.

The Brahms Bb piano concerto is one that I did not particulary like. I love the d minor concerto, and I think that this trend may be the norm.

Handel I do not warm up to that much either. Bach and Scarlatti for that era are much more to my liking. I much prefer the Beethoven and Mozart piano sonatas to those of Haydn and Schubert, I find Mozart a lot more vibrant than Haydn and Beethoven generally more convincing to me than the Schubert sonatas. (Of course, on an individual sonata by sonata basis, it differs. This is only my rationalization on the whole)

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#598677 - 01/19/04 09:03 AM Re: I can't stand this!
Brendan Offline



Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5283
Loc: McAllen, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
No way! These two symphonies are now so obscure that chances are that you wouldn't have heard of one composer, and if you had heard of the other, it would have been more likely as a pianist, not as a composer. [/b]
Rubenstein's "Ocean" Symphony?
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#598678 - 01/19/04 01:22 PM Re: I can't stand this!
BDB Offline
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The Ocean Symphony is one of them. The other is much more difficult.

 Quote:
BDB, this is a dangerous topic. Some of the responses have hurt deep down.
As I tried to explain, if your favorite piece is someone else's most hated, that actually shows that the composer was good enough to make an impression. Unlike the Ocean Symphony, or the myriad of other highly praised pieces of ages ago.
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#598679 - 01/19/04 01:49 PM Re: I can't stand this!
valarking Offline
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Funny, I expected Wagner to be beat into the ground in this thread...

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#598680 - 01/19/04 02:14 PM Re: I can't stand this!
Kreisler Offline



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Wagner isn't worth the effort...
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#598681 - 01/19/04 02:17 PM Re: I can't stand this!
benedict Offline
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Exactly my thought.

"When I hear Wagner, I want to invade Poland"
Woody Allen
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#598682 - 01/19/04 02:48 PM Re: I can't stand this!
RealPlayer Offline
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Wow, critics hated de Falla's Harpsichord Concerto? That's about the only de Falla piece I LIKE!

As for contributing to this topic in general, that's a weighty question. It will require some thought.
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#598683 - 01/19/04 03:16 PM Re: I can't stand this!
CrashTest Offline
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I can't say I like the operatic composers very much. I have not liked much of what I have heard of Rossini, Puccini, and all of the other ini's.

Of course, Mozart is a different story. No complaints there!

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#598684 - 01/19/04 03:17 PM Re: I can't stand this!
mrenaud Online   content
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 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
The Ocean Symphony is one of them. The other is much more difficult.[/b]
[guess]Is it one of Raff's symphonies?[/guess]
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#598685 - 01/19/04 03:44 PM Re: I can't stand this!
PhJ. Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Kreisler:
Wagner isn't worth the effort... [/b]
you guys are joking, aren't you ?

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#598686 - 01/19/04 05:19 PM Re: I can't stand this!
BDB Offline
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 Quote:
[guess]Is it one of Raff's symphonies?[/guess]
You're good! \:\)
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#598687 - 01/19/04 05:37 PM Re: I can't stand this!
BruceD Offline
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I would be willing to bet - although I couldn't name names and wouldn't guess numbers - that more of the "I can't stand (blank)" is based on unfamiliarity than on a real knowledge of the works of that composer.
Similarly "my favorite composer is (blank)" is often biased because that is the composer whose works are best known by the person making the post.
Six of one, half a dozen of another; more of the same.

Regards,
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#598688 - 01/19/04 05:38 PM Re: I can't stand this!
BruceD Offline
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Delete!
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#598689 - 01/19/04 07:41 PM Re: I can't stand this!
aznxk3vi17 Offline
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If we don't count the works that are overplayed, such as Fur Elise, Clair de lune, etc., I have very little I actually despise.

However... I simply cannot enjoy anything that Rachmaninoff wrote. Don't ask me why, none of it has ever touched me. The VAST majority of Beethoven's sonatas are also nothing special. There's a reason why the few that are always played are always played.

Chopin's waltzes don't do anything for me. The posthumous ones are okay, but those are ones he wished never to be published, so I usually respect his wishes and not play them. His early works are also kind of boring compared to the maturity of his late works.

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#598690 - 01/19/04 07:49 PM Re: I can't stand this!
DW_mod Offline
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I'm all hands on that. Yap. Agree totally!

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#598691 - 01/19/04 07:49 PM Re: I can't stand this!
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I'm all hands on that. Yap. Agree totally!

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#598692 - 01/20/04 12:33 AM Re: I can't stand this!
valarking Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by aznxk3vi17:
If we don't count the works that are overplayed, such as Fur Elise, Clair de lune, etc., I have very little I actually despise.

However... I simply cannot enjoy anything that Rachmaninoff wrote. Don't ask me why, none of it has ever touched me. The VAST majority of Beethoven's sonatas are also nothing special. There's a reason why the few that are always played are always played.

Chopin's waltzes don't do anything for me. The posthumous ones are okay, but those are ones he wished never to be published, so I usually respect his wishes and not play them. His early works are also kind of boring compared to the maturity of his late works. [/b]
I agree, and I'm one of the only people I know who like the Emaj waltz.

Also, earlier I such much of the Chopin sonatas. Let me elaborate. THE 1ST MOVEMENT OF THE 1ST SONATA. YUCK.

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#598693 - 01/20/04 07:55 AM Re: I can't stand this!
F# Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by aznxk3vi17:
The VAST majority of Beethoven's sonatas are nothing special.[/b]

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#598694 - 01/20/04 10:26 AM Re: I can't stand this!
jazzyd Offline
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DW_mod & chickgrand: There is a wonderful recording of "The Planets" for two pianos on Naxos. It is Holst's own arrangement; well worth hearing.

Regarding my own dislikes: I dislike almost all the music of Chopin. I could live without Grieg's Piano Concerto. Everything I have heard by Wagner, ditto. The "Mighty Handful" were not so mighty, IMO. Much of Elgar's contribution is pretty awful.

David
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#598695 - 01/20/04 11:26 AM Re: I can't stand this!
benedict Offline
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I could not stand Bach's Christmas Oratorio on Christmas Eve.

I found that the spiritual genius of JSB had turned into a very conformist and heavy celebration.

Maybe I was in a bad mood.

I felt the same though when I heard a cantata performed by the very official St Thomas in Leipzig orcjestra and choir : I felt it was a very stifling experience.

Sometimes, German music can be a bit too german.

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#598696 - 01/20/04 05:06 PM Re: I can't stand this!
CrashTest Offline
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I love the Christmas Oratorio, and it should be heard more in light of other Bach choral masterpieces like St. Matthew's passion and the b minor mass.

The magnificat is also wonderfully vibrant and colorful, as Bach always is.

Sometimes a bad performance can mar the experience, but it by no means has to mean the work is bad.

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#598697 - 01/21/04 04:53 AM Re: I can't stand this!
benedict Offline
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CrashTest,

The fact that I cannot stand a piece at a certain moment is in no way a judgement about its value.
I certainly don't feel qualified to decide which works of Bach are great and which ones are not.
But I could not stand that particular interpretation that day.

I usually have to change channel when Wagner gets in his nationalistic mood. I can't stand it either. Too much of anything can be overwhelming.

I will give Christmas Oratorio a second chance any time but December \:D

I love Bach's Magnificat. I love even more Monteverdi's Magnificat from Vepre della Virgine.
I song in the choir in another lifetime.

I find that the older modes are closer to the soul than the major and minor modes that got stabilized in the 18th century (with the equal temperament ?).

Isn't it the reason why folk music of all parts of the world can be so moving as if it touched a deep part of our roots ?
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#598698 - 01/21/04 05:31 AM Re: I can't stand this!
Ted2 Offline
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My dislikes comprise certain musical phenomena, and therefore I tend to dislike the music of a particular composer if much of it contains the features I don't like. Sometimes one or two bars of a piece fill me with delight and the rest goes in one ear and out the other. That's why I like improvising - I can just fill it up with the things I like all the time.

Trouble is, the qualities I like and dislike change over time. Worse than that, they change from one day to the next, even from one hour to the next. I could say that in general I don't like music written to fit notation - regular metrical events, motoric statements. I could say that in general I don't like old fashioned chords, music which uses only half a dozen chord types, music which hangs around one scale all the time.

All this is easy to say but then I might sit down and be enraptured by something I make up on the spur of the moment which turns out to have these features - it's happened before and it will happen again.

Even within a very small category, for example simple tonal melody of restricted type, I can confound myself with my likes and dislikes. I don't like Handel's Messiah at all but I like Schubert's Ave Maria. I find it next to impossible to explain why.

My musical response seems to be a very peculiar thing, and therefore I can only answer the question with vague generalities making no sense to anybody. To a large extent I live in a mystery with regard to this issue.

The like or dislike response is part of the cycle of creative volition. I spend hours experimenting with music and my response to new sounds - always have. I expect the process to continue for my lifetime. I'm not sure that formulating conscious rules about dislikes is likely to do me any good.
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#598699 - 01/21/04 07:19 AM Re: I can't stand this!
DW_mod Offline
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I luv the Christmas Oratorio, dunno why any one would dislike anything by Bach...except 1, I hate Bach's Minuet in G. The pcs I dread listening most has got to be ( I'm sure every pianist will agree with this list)
1. Fur Elise
2. Anything by Wagner. His massive opera gives me head splitting headaches.
3. I hate Rondo Alla Turca by Mozart.Too over played and so expectable, Dunno whether it's the same for u guys.
4. Most of Chopin's Polonaise/waltzes. But other than that, I luv most of his output.
5. Debussy's Reverie
6. Beethoven Sym No 5
7. Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu...too over played, of caz unless the version is really great, then I wouldn't mind listening. BTW, I find Slvia Capova's version the best by far.
8. Twinkle Twinkle Little Star by Mozart
9. Chopin's Revolutionary Etude...too overplayed. And too many 'unjustified' versions.
10. Chinese Classical Music on the piano...Dun misunderstood me..I'm not a racist.
7.

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#598700 - 01/21/04 12:14 PM Re: I can't stand this!
benedict Offline
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I cnt stnd psts whre lttrs are ommttd.

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#598701 - 01/21/04 01:10 PM Re: I can't stand this!
JBryan Offline
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I guess the pot smoke makes it harder to find all the keys.
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#598702 - 01/22/04 05:39 AM Re: I can't stand this!
benedict Offline
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\:D \:D \:D

I hadn't thought of that.
Way too cool, man ! Way too cool.
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#598703 - 01/22/04 07:04 AM Re: I can't stand this!
DW_mod Offline
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Hey Benedict...I really dun understand why u must put up a front and criticise my posts in such a childish manner. If u think that posting in perfect, solemn English makes u a more 'enlightened' being than me...well then, so be it. Like what I've mentioned earlier on, as we're all profilic pianists...I really dun see the need to put up a front, and try to sound so serious and almighty in my posts.

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#598704 - 01/22/04 07:23 AM Re: I can't stand this!
benedict Offline
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DW-mod,
 Quote:
. If u think that posting in perfect, solemn English makes u a more 'enlightened' being than me...well then, so be it.
Forgive me if I have offended you.
But you must understand that English not being my language, I find it maybe more difficult that your fellow citizens to understand your writing style.

Forgive my intolerance though. This forum being a democratic place, everybody is entitled to his/her opinions and style.

I'll try to be tolerant.
You find my attitude childish. I find your style childish.

Blessed be the children for they shall inherit the earth \:D
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#598705 - 01/22/04 08:04 AM Re: I can't stand this!
BruceD Offline
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Vas-y, Benedict!

\:D
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#598706 - 01/22/04 09:01 AM Re: I can't stand this!
DW_mod Offline
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Okay...I'm partly wrong also. I shouldn't assume that everyvody is familiar with shorthand typing. I'll try to post in full sentences from now on...but it ain't gonna be easy for me, because I'm a generally lazy person.
As quoted
"You find my attitude childish. I find your style childish.

Blessed be the children for they shall inherit the earth ".
I find this 'pun' of words quite intelligently amusing. So, maybe you're not such a bad person afterall. Sorry if I've offended you in anyway, because English is not my first language. And I've to admit that I felt slightly hurt when you keep picking on my form of expression. Thank You.

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#598707 - 01/22/04 11:24 AM Re: I can't stand this!
benedict Offline
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Nice to meet you.

I do appreciate your making an effort to write the words fully. I am sure it will be well worth it.

This pianist corner is an extraordinary place where absolutely every person has learnt to respect and appreciate all the different experiences and viewpoints that are expressed.

I wonder if the shorthand style is the one usually used in the chats like MSN ICQ. The pace of this forum is somewhat slower and it often helps to really think things over.
Maybe a chatroom would be a good complement here.

Maybe there is one, and I still haven't discovered it \:D
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#598708 - 01/22/04 01:48 PM Re: I can't stand this!
BDB Offline
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I also have a problem with people who don't write things out properly. It slows me down when I'm reading, so usually I don't even bother to read it at all. If someone doesn't want to show me the respect of putting their ideas into a form that makes it easy for me to understand, I have no reason to respect those ideas.

I've spent the past week trying to help a fellow tech with little English solve a problem. It has taken a number of messages back and forth to get to the resolution. It might have been resolved in one or two posts if his English were better, but that is not the case. It really points out how much of an imposition it is when someone deliberately avoids the conventions of the language.
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#598709 - 01/22/04 02:34 PM Re: I can't stand this!
BruceD Offline
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BDB:

As a member of the "old school" I really am inclined to agree with you that it is a question of respect. In other words, what comes across is: "Like it my way or s**w you!"

Also, as Benedict pointed out, this is very much an international forum where not every member's native language is English.

This said, I appreciate DW_mod's most recent posts, written in standard English. Thank you.

Regards,
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#598710 - 01/22/04 03:24 PM Re: I can't stand this!
Ted Offline
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DW_Mod:

Can you give a couple of examples of classical Chinese music for the piano ? I didn't know any existed. I am very fond of classical Chinese music in general, zithers, opera and so on and I recently discovered Tan Dun's music, which I also like very much. However, I hadn't realised there was such a thing as a classical tradition in Chinese piano music.
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#598711 - 01/22/04 03:37 PM Re: I can't stand this!
netizen Offline
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Howard Hanson's symphonies. Classical Music's answer to ambien
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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#598712 - 01/22/04 04:06 PM Re: I can't stand this!
Axtremus Offline
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I identify most with Ted2's response -- that my state of mind completely dictates what I like or do not like at any moment in time. Having said that, there is still some music that I almost never like these days:

1. Pop songs and country music that just keep repeating the same harmonic progression and the same rhythm over and over again.

2. Godowski's transcriptions of Chopin's piano work for the piano. ("Why mess with perfection?")

3. Melodies from traditional/classical music rearranged to use electronic/synthesized accompaniment.

4. Generally dislike music that repeats itself too much, this would include most minimalist work (but I do have a few favorites in the minimalist genre).

5. Recitative -- never learn to like this style, would rather listen to Rap.

 Quote:
Originally posted by DW_mod:
10. Chinese Classical Music on the piano...
I would generalize and include "classical music" of all non-European cultures into the statement above. Very few managed to transcribe well any music developed completely outside of the 12-tone equal temperament system onto a strictly 12-tone equal temperament instrument such as the piano. (As far as Chinese classical music goes, the only exceptions in my mind would be Ying Chen-Zhong's transcriptions, I think those included with his "Yellow River" Concerto CD were quite masterfully transcribed -- better than the Concerto itself.)

The reverse is also true. I have yet to find any classical western music transcribed onto any traditional Chinese instrument that I like --except some short, slow music for strings, the Hu-Qin family and the Western String family are quite compatible as both have free-floating strings, so string transcription can be made to work easier (e.g., Thais "Meditation").

[Edit:

Ted, saw your post asking for examples of "classical chinese music for the piano." Strictly speaking, there is none. The Chinese didn't get serious with the piano until way after World War II. The defining moment came with the "Yellow River Concerto" 3~4 decades ago (don't remember exact year). That's the first "major" work by a Chinese composer writen for the piano, even then, that one was a composition-by-committee sort of derivative work commissioned by an influential politician at the time, based on a choral suite originally ritten by Xian Xing-Hai, a Chinese scholar who studied Western Classical music in Russia. I think Marco Polo still publishes the "Yellow River Piano Concerto" CD. Other than this very political work, Tan Dun would be the only Chinese composer that achieved a hint of international fame. And, as mentioned, the pianist most responsible for the "Yellow River" concerto also transcribed some classical Chinese tunes for piano and I consider those to be among the best of transcribed classical Chinese music for the piano. I guess the "Yellow River Piano Concerto" CD would be a good place to start, then progress to Dan Tun who is at the "cutting edge" today. There is no significant Chinese piano music before the "Yellow River."

End Edit.]
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#598713 - 01/22/04 04:12 PM Re: I can't stand this!
8ude Offline
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I personally can't stand waltzes by Strauss, Waldteufel, or just about any other Viennese waltz... Just don't find them interesting at all.
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#598714 - 01/22/04 04:42 PM Re: I can't stand this!
CrashTest Offline
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Just a small comment about the d minor Rachmaninoff piano concerto.

Although it has achieved a good deal of success amongst the masses, and some may view it as a bit of a sell-out. Regardless, one thing is clear when you listen to it live with a good pianist and orchestra.

It is a very effective piece for the audience. (Not to mention the pianist!)

It also has one of the most exciting endings I've heard in a long time, although it does have its shortcomings of course.

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#598715 - 01/22/04 06:00 PM Re: I can't stand this!
zorro Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by DW_mod:
8. Twinkle Twinkle Little Star by Mozart
[/b]
The variations are his, but the main theme is a French lullaby.
"Ah, vous dirais-je, Maman"
zorro
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#598716 - 01/23/04 12:33 AM Re: I can't stand this!
DW_mod Offline
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As quoted :"...(As far as Chinese classical music goes, the only exceptions in my mind would be Ying Chen-Zhong's transcriptions, I think those included with his "Yellow River" Concerto CD were quite masterfully transcribed -- better than the Concerto itself.)"
Well, that was the type of Chinese music I'm talking about. It wasn't tormentous to listen to. It's in fact very refreshing...but perhaps it's been so overly performed these few years. U see, the problem is, they will include this as a special feature whenever they are hosting a east meets west kind of concert recitals. Other forms of classical chinese music are actually anything played be the traditional Chinese instruments such as Pipa, erhu, yang qin, the zither and so on. A lot of modern transcriptions fot the piano has comed out in these recent years and they are general flip-flops as I've found them. Talking about Western music played on Chinese instruments...I guess nothing can get as worse as China's most recent er-hu quartet. They are 4, all-sassy girls who play their er-hus standing...Doesn't this just remind you of the group 'Bond'? And to be more 'disgusted'...They played all of their tracks on their er-hus. They have been recieving great publicity and reviews in China from what I know. But shouldn't the human ears be more 'picky' and do more justice to music? It's really appauling to hear the Chinese version of the Bond girls's tracks...and to know that people could survive with that. It's not that I'm a bond fan or anything, in fact I find them equally appauling as well. But you have quite to hear the Chinese version to understand the degree od damage done. \:\) And yes...I do know that Mozart wrote only the variations. But thanks for posting. It will serve well as general info. Thank you. \:\)

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#598717 - 01/23/04 04:02 AM Re: I can't stand this!
benedict Offline
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 Quote:
Ah ! vous dirais-je, maman
Ce qui cause mon tourment ?
Depuis que j'ai vu Silvandre
Me regarder d'un air tendre,
Mon coeur dit a chaque instant :
"Peut-on vivre sans amant ?

L'autre jour, dans un bosquet
De fleurs, il fit un bouquet.
Il en para ma houlette,
Me disant : "Belle brunette,
Flore est moins belle que toi,
L'amour moins tendre que moi.

Je rougis, et par malheur
Un soupir trahit mon coeur.
Le cruel, avec adresse,
Profita de ma faiblesse.
Helas, maman, un faux pas
Me fit tomber dans ses bras.

Je n'avais pour tout soutien
Que ma houlette et mon chien.
L'amour voulant ma défaite
Ecarta chien et houlette.
Ah ! qu'on goute de douceur
Quand l'amour prend soin du coeur .
It is not at all a children song.
Will someone be kind enough to translate this tender confession of a teenager to her mother ?

\:\)
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#598718 - 01/23/04 10:41 AM Re: I can't stand this!
BruceD Offline
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Loc: Victoria, BC
Herewith a free, non-poetic translation

Ah ! vous dirais-je, maman Shall I tell you, Mother
Ce qui cause mon tourment ? What is causing my torment?
Depuis que j'ai vu Silvandre Ever since Silvandre gave me
Me regarder d'un air tendre, That tender look
Mon coeur dit a chaque instant : My heart keeps saying:
"Peut-on vivre sans amant ? “Can I live without a lover?”

L'autre jour, dans un bosquet The other day in a floral grove
De fleurs, il fit un bouquet. He made a bouquet.
Il en para ma houlette, With it he decorated my crook*
Me disant : "Belle brunette, Saying: “Beautiful brunette
Flore est moins belle que toi, Flowers are less beautiful than you,
L'amour moins tendre que moi. Love less tender than I.”

Je rougis, et par malheur I blushed and unfortunately,
Un soupir trahit mon coeur. A sigh betrayed my heart.
Le cruel, avec adresse, The cruel one, with skill
Profita de ma faiblesse. Took advantage of my weakness.
Helas, maman, un faux pas Alas, Mother, a false step
Me fit tomber dans ses bras. Made me fall into his arms.

Je n'avais pour tout soutien I had nothing to stop me
Que ma houlette et mon chien But my crook and my dog.
L'amour voulant ma défaite But Love, wanting my downfall
Ecarta chien et houlette. Chased away both dog and crook.
Ah ! qu'on goute de douceur Ah! What sweetness you’ve tasted
Quand l'amour prend soin du coeur . When Love takes over your heart.

*Shepherd’s crook

P.S. Sorry, folks. In the document I created I had this in nice parallel columns. At the moment, I dont have the time to reformat. I'm sure you can make it out, nevertheless.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#598719 - 01/23/04 01:35 PM Re: I can't stand this!
benedict Offline
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Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
BruceD,

Bravissimo !
Superbe traduction.

19,5/20 is the mark you get from me.

two small corrections:

bosquet = thicket
Flore is the Goddess of flowers and gardens (Flora)

Your translation is really great. Congratulations BruceD. Your students are lucky. You do have a love for la langue de Moliere.


The real lyrics of Ah vous dirais-je maman are very far from Twinkle twinckle litte star.
And Mozart's variation are a real delight, don't you think ?
Not a piece to study, but just play for pleasure as a preparation for his sonatas I should think.

Regards.

\:\)
_________________________
Benedict

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#598720 - 01/23/04 02:24 PM Re: I can't stand this!
RealPlayer Offline
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Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 2313
Loc: NYC
I think it was partially great tiredness with the much-played classics of the piano that turned me away from them and toward a specialization in contemporary music. I could have said I "hated" them, but I don't hate them anymore. Although I still have little tolerance for the warhorses.

There are plenty of pieces and composers I can't stand among the contemporary repertoire, though. It would take a while to think of them all. One who always irritates me is George Crumb, and I have played and listened to a fair amount of his stuff over the years. It just comes across to me as self-conscious slick quasi-mysticism, with usages of the great innovations of Cowell and Cage for mawkish and strained effects. And then there's the whispering and the masks and...yecch.

There. I've probably alienated a whole lotta people with that one...sorry. Guess George won't be calling to ask me to play some new thing...

I used to think of myself as the composer's servant, that I would do my best with anyone's music and feel good about it. Now I feel more selective, and if I'm presented with a piece to play that doesn't appeal to me, or that I can see is mediocre writing, I think of all that energy I would have to put into something that doesn't further my own musical growth. And yes, this does sometimes mean turning down some performances and recordings that could help pay the bills.
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Joe

www.josephkubera.com

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#598721 - 01/23/04 03:06 PM Re: I can't stand this!
Axtremus Offline
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Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6162
 Quote:
Originally posted by DW_mod:
A lot of modern transcriptions for the piano has comed out in these recent years and they are general flip-flops as I've found them. Talking about Western music played on Chinese instruments...I guess nothing can get as worse as China's most recent er-hu quartet. They are 4, all-sassy girls who play their er-hus standing...Doesn't this just remind you of the group 'Bond'? And to be more 'disgusted'...They played all of their tracks on their er-hus.
Wah! Thanks for the update on the state of the Chinese "classical music" scene. Playing Er-Hu standing up? Sad to hear it has come to this. Vennessa May (sp) did something unconventional with the violin, but at least it was fresh and entertaining to listen to. (p.s. Got a web address where I can look up this Bond-wannabe Er-Hu quartet you mentioned? Thanks.)
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#598722 - 01/23/04 07:37 PM Re: I can't stand this!
me_dup1 Offline
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Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 261
Loc: north of 53
You are talking about the 12 girls band. 4 on erhu, 3 on pipa, some dizi, some guzheng, etc. The way these 12 girls were chosen was to have dinner with the guy in charge. Well, you can imagine the rest. They played a horrible rendition of "Take Five" on their DVD using Chinese instruments.

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#598723 - 01/23/04 09:32 PM Re: I can't stand this!
DW_mod Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 117
Yah, Thanks to Me. That was the group I was talking about. Man! You've quite got to see it yourself to understand the damage done to music. I don't really like Vanessa Mae as a person ( I know her personally) But, you've got to admit that she does justice to music in a new 'dimensional' way. :p
One other Violinist that I really don't like is Kam Ning. She's the silver medallist for the prestigious Queen Elizabeth Violin Competion. She's really fantastic, but the wat she talks to her Dad just makes you wanna give her a tight slap on the face.
But she's really one hell of a violinist. So I guess I shouldn't criticise her where Music is not concern. But do check out the latest Chinese group we mentioned. I'll post the web add if I can find. Thank you.

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#598724 - 01/23/04 09:34 PM Re: I can't stand this!
DW_mod Offline
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Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 117
Thank you 'me'. Where are you from by the way? :rolleyes:

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#598725 - 01/24/04 12:42 AM Re: I can't stand this!
BDB Offline
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Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21244
Loc: Oakland
I agree with the assessment of Howard Hanson. Actually, many years ago I was given a collection of recordings of music by American composers. There were only a couple of them that I liked, Randall Thompson and Arthur Foote.

I could admire the rest for trying to make their own voice. But it doesn't appeal to me. I guess it's the same with most other people, too.
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#598726 - 01/24/04 02:37 AM Re: I can't stand this!
David Burton Offline
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Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1757
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by benedict:
This pianist corner is an extraordinary place where absolutely every person has learnt to respect and appreciate all the different experiences and viewpoints that are expressed.[/b]
Yes, sure beats the Coffee Room sometimes.

This afternoon we had a little music fest where some piano music was played and then some records and CD’s were played. The styles ranged from classical to modern pop music. I found my reactions interesting:

A Scarlatti sonata and a Bach French Suite. I’m getting tired of both, but better not as I have to perform them more soon.

Chopin nocturnes, especially the fourth in F major with the torrential middle section, a real tear jerker for me, don’t know why. I love it. Wait til I’ve played it 150 times. I’ll hate it as much as some of the others.

Some pop tunes from the 70’s. Couldn’t stand the lyrics, couldn’t stand the SINGING? One group was YES. Remember them? They used to be hot in the early to mid 70’s, the decade that I wished would end quickly. Their lead singer sounded AWFUL to me and their lyrics were a bad attempt at being existentially meaningful or profound but the whole thing ended up sounding DATED. There were The Beach Boys, and then Dave Brubeck. He was barely passable.

Am I getting TIRED?

Yes indeed, much German music can sound too German, much Russian music too Russian, Italian music, etc.

More and more I’m playing and listening to French and English composers, and the more obscure the better. There are wonderful pieces by Fauré and Bax and others in that period between 1875 and 1935.

I can sympathize with anyone who gets tired of hearing the same things all the time and I realize that some music can be just too demanding on both the listener and performer to be borne.

Ever try playing a Mahler symphony for a girl you’ve just met? Don’t do it unless she asks for it. And the ones who ask you to play Wagner on a first date are probably to be avoided.

Some more dislikes? OK, most Soviet era compositions by not too well known composers leave me cold as a frigid night in Moscow in the dead of winter. This stuff is all cranked out to state regulations and is as emotionally stale as a piece of melba toast found in an ancient tomb.

I am also really disgusted with much of the work of Hans Werner Henze.

But there are exceptions to everything and Alfred Schnittke seems to be one of them. It’s his weird humor that I like. He’s a state composer who is subtly jeering the state in practically every piece. Of course this too can get tiresome.

It all gets tiresome. We’re all getting older and tired-er. Whenever are we going to get enough sleep?

Oh I’ve got one, anyone here have any liking for William Schuman’s music? What is there to like? Or Tibor Serly? Pu-leeeze! (How’s that for childish?).

I hope and pray that nothing I have ever written is as crushingly boring. But to someone it will be no doubt.

I generally love Brahms, Sibelius and Elgar. Others simply can’t stand them.

I’m not really at a level to play much Rachmaninoff (and don’t have a piano adequate to his needs, yet). But much of his work I find very interesting. He was almost but not quite the last Romantic composer and may have been the last Czarist composer. But moving away from his big orchestral works (I find his symphonies more interesting than his piano concertos), there’s a lot there to explore.

And I’m not yet ready to put down Asian composers who use the piano whether Chinese or Japanese. Much of their music is either a very new reflection on an ancient culture that has continued for three times the length of Western civilization or a bit of national folk music transferred onto the piano. In either case, I sense something new and different to our ears could develop there.

Hanson’s symphonies? His whole output for that matter? Ever heard any David Diamond? Yawn! These are CD’s I bought to try out and maybe I’v e played them once. Every time they come up I pass.

Oh boy! Axtremus mentioned COUNTRY MUSIC. Now there’s some that I like and a lot that I just can’t stand. When it’s the authentic untainted Nashville stuff, fine, but mix it with rock n roll (rockabilly) or anything else, and it really grates on my nerves. I can only take Texas swing in small doses and Bluegrass, which I admit must take some skill to bring off, also leaves me pretty cold. My sister plays it. When I play late romantic stuff for her she says, “I’m sorry but I don’t like my emotions played with like that.” She really hates Romantic classical the most. Different strokes.

Matter of fact, Axtremus’s whole list I’d agree with.

 Quote:
Originally posted by 8ude:
I personally can't stand waltzes by Strauss, Waldteufel, or just about any other Viennese waltz... Just don't find them interesting at all. [/b]
OK, but maybe you should try dancing them or going to Vienna, late spring or early summer. With a little of that cream sent from heaven of theirs that puts any other dairy product you’ve ever tried to shame, and a little fresh Gruener Weltliner and voila! You’d get the idea. Oh and of all the women I’ve ever seen (and I don’t see that good), the Austrian women made the blood rush to my throat and other places. Such wonderful good looking women! I’ve rarely had such a great time. Expensive, but great.

Excellent sojourn through Ah ! vous dirais-je, maman. Thanks to both Benedict and BruceD. And I have always liked these variations though they aren’t technically very difficult, don’t know why.

RealPlayer says, “One who always irritates me is George Crumb, and I have played and listened to a fair amount of his stuff over the years. It just comes across to me as self-conscious slick quasi-mysticism, with usages of the great innovations of Cowell and Cage for mawkish and strained effects. And then there's the whispering and the masks and...yecch.”

Yes, I agree; pretty Crumby music. What is it with composers who think they need a gimmick? Just write music, some music, anything without too much of one. On the other hand Eliot Carter has mostly improved in my estimation over time.

He further says something I really like, “Now I feel more selective, and if I'm presented with a piece to play that doesn't appeal to me, or that I can see is mediocre writing, I think of all that energy I would have to put into something that doesn't further my own musical growth. And yes, this does sometimes mean turning down some performances and recordings that could help pay the bills.”

Why bother playing something you can’t even get into? How do you expect anyone listening to get into it if you can’t? Very well put, and I quite agree.

Arthur Foote, now that’s a good one. I wouldn’t mind hearing more of these proper Bostonian composers from the late 19th century revived. That is, until my ears get tired of them too.

So far this is an excellent thread.
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#598727 - 01/24/04 02:51 AM Re: I can't stand this!
Dreamaurora Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/04
Posts: 228
 Quote:
Originally posted by DW_mod:
Yah, Thanks to Me. That was the group I was talking about. Man! You've quite got to see it yourself to understand the damage done to music. I don't really like Vanessa Mae as a person ( I know her personally) But, you've got to admit that she does justice to music in a new 'dimensional' way. :p
One other Violinist that I really don't like is Kam Ning. She's the silver medallist for the prestigious Queen Elizabeth Violin Competion. She's really fantastic, but the wat she talks to her Dad just makes you wanna give her a tight slap on the face.
But she's really one hell of a violinist. So I guess I shouldn't criticise her where Music is not concern. But do check out the latest Chinese group we mentioned. I'll post the web add if I can find. Thank you. [/b]
Care to tell me how is the way she talked to her dad ? My impression of Kam Ning so far that she is a wonderful violinist and as a bonus, stunning in the looks department ( check her out in that dress during her playing of Bersntein' Serenade, simply stunning ).

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#598728 - 01/24/04 04:45 AM Re: I can't stand this!
DW_mod Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 117
kam Ning's Dad is an artist also...He's quite liberal and astute in thinking. So they kinda bicker all the time. But a re-enactment of a daily, example of such minute clashes ( in the public ):
Dad : 'You know the time when..."
Kam Ning :' yeah...Yeah...I know. Keep queit...'
Dad :'I'm trying to tell others, let me..'
Kam Ning :' SSSHHH! NO! You stop talking! I want to talk...Why do you need to talk all the time. You would be better off keeping your mouth shut.'
They always have these seemingly 'fun, no harm' bickers all the time, which to me is just plain rudeness and spoiltness. I was generally really taken aback and disgusted when I first saw her with this kinda behaviour. But suprisingly enough, her Dad seems to quite enjoy their sizzling 'style' of conversation. Well, what do you know...Maybe it's time that we get a paradime shift.
Maybe it's just me who find this approach to conversation appauling. But when is telling your Dad to shut up in the public an acceptable behaviour? \:o

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#598729 - 01/25/04 03:39 PM Re: I can't stand this!
me_dup1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 261
Loc: north of 53
 Quote:
Originally posted by DW_mod:
But do check out the latest Chinese group we mentioned. I'll post the web add if I can find. Thank you. [/b]
Here is a webpage about the 12 girls band.
http://www1.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-08/13/content_254528.htm

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#598730 - 07/02/04 09:38 PM Re: I can't stand this!
pqbd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 47
Resurrecting this thread here, because I'd like to read more responses from everyone, and I'd like to contribute. These are what I dislike:

* Haydn piano sonatas
* Mozart piano sonatas (except[/b] the F major, K. 332, I think. That was the first real piano sonata I learned in its entirety, as a piano student)
* pretty much anything by Weber (especially[/b] the overture to Oberon, eww)
* Schubert's "Great" symphony (seems to go on and on to me)
* Tchaikovsky's 4th symphony (though I do like the 5th and the 'Pathetique'), and the piano concerto #1
* Mussorgsky's "Night on Bald Mountain"
* some of the Rachmaninoff preludes (besides the famous ones in c# minor and g minor, of course)
* Schoenberg's "Pierrot Lunaire". I also cannot stand any piece that employs Sprichstimme. It just sounds awful to my ears.
* any piece of twelve-tone music (I find the system limiting and pointless), and anything that's atonal, for that matter
* Bartok's string quartets

I used to not be a big fan of Brahms, but since I read a biography and listened to some CD's, I've found myself warming up to his music.

As to some of the other responses, I can't comment, because I'm not familar with them. I'll embarrass myself and list some of the things I don't know, or have never heard:

* Bach's Christmas oratorio
* Schubert sonatas
* Bruckner's symphonies
* most of Schumann's piano music (except for some pieces in the "Album for the Young," and "Carneval")
* anything by Cesar Franck
* pretty much anything by Mahler
* most stuff from the 20th century and beyond (Glass, Reich, Crumb, Ives, Hanson, Schuman, etc.)


pqbd

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#598731 - 07/02/04 11:33 PM Re: I can't stand this!
signa Offline
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Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8482
Loc: Ohio, USA
i don't like Brahms's sonatas (i tried to like it through a recital with his 3rd sonata and still enjoyed nothing), Mahler's symphomies (sitting through his 5th last summer was painful and long), Shostakovich's 15th symphony (which may sound interesting here or there at the time but to me just bunch of sound clusters), and maybe more, but can't think of anymore for now.

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#598732 - 07/03/04 02:03 AM Re: I can't stand this!
Ðanor Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/02
Posts: 1232
Loc: Santiago, Chile
this is awesome. How people can hate particular works considered in history as "masterpiece".

Speaking as myself:

I hate godowsky sad transcriptions of chopin etudes, specially that one who mix like 3 etudes in 1 (it's like to listen that "fur elise" techno version!!! )

-I can't stand chopin's 1º concerto
-can't stand most of the liszt etudes (except trascendentals nº10 and wildjagd (is that the spelling?))
-can't stand beethoven's 2nd sonata
-can't stand most of luciano berio works
-can't stand most of american composers! (except cage and steve reich)
-can't stand that someone can't stand mozart
-can't stand most of paganini works
-can't stand xenakis
-can't stand alkan at all. one of the worst composers i have ever known (however i highly respect him as a pianist, and his contribution to the technique development............)
-can't stand purcell
-can't stand most of barroque music (for me bach is not barroque, is a completely different story)
-can't stand the "light" cadenza of the rach 3.
-can't stand horowitz
-can't stand perahia recordings of schumann
-can't stand idil biret recordings of chopin
-can't stand martha argerich's kreisleriana
-can't stand horowitz transcriptions....
-can't stand sorajbi
-can't stand P. Glass

Well im really tired, i better go sleep :::::: ºººººººººººººººººººººººººººººººººººººººººººººº
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#598733 - 07/03/04 02:50 AM Re: I can't stand this!
starmender Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 461
Loc: Australia
"How many Phillip Glasses does it take to change a lightbulb?"

"How many?"

"How many Phillip Glasses does it take to change a lightbulb?"

"How many?"

"How many Phillip Glasses does it take to change a lightbulb?"

I hate minimalism, and Rachmaninov, and TV themes cooked up by blokes with guitars.

"Country music" is an oxymoron.

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#598734 - 07/03/04 03:11 AM Re: I can't stand this!
Mozart1969 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 276
Loc: Stresa, Italy
I dislike many of the popular classics simply because they are overplayed. For example, Vivaldi's Quattro Stagioni, Mozart's Eine Kleine NachtMusik.... Musically speaking they are quite interesting but I have just heard them too often.

I found it interesting to read comments about Mahler. Well well. I adore Mahler. I have all of the scores to his symphonies and often play along the flute/piccolo part (as practice)with a cd recording. I also love Shostakovich, Bruckner (especially his Motets and Mass in D minor) Perhaps you would think I like Wagner too. Not the case. Some of his works I like but others no. I like to discover rare works. Puccini's Requiem for example or pieces that are rarely played. I like Elgar's choral music.

Maybe Mahler and Shostakovich could be considered as 'hardcore' classical music with a limited audience? How can you not like the final movement of Mahler's 2nd Symph.? Truly enlightening for me! One can feel oneself being lifted to the heavens!
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#598735 - 07/03/04 09:32 AM Re: I can't stand this!
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
This is an interesting thread-- I didn't read it on its first go-round.

I generally agree with the "old warhorses" comments, but I just couldn't go along with the folks who dislike Handel's Messiah. It's been one of my favorites for years and years!

My hypothesis is that the folks who don't like it have little experience with the ENTIRE work, but instead are commenting on "Hallelujah Chorus" or "For Unto Us..." The full piece has some magnificent sections, and runs the gamut of emotion from elation to total despair. My second hypotheses is that the trend for Messiah has been to seriously overproduce it... double string sections, chorus of hundreds, etc.

This past Christmas the Phoenix Symphony performed the complete Messiah with the original (small) orchestration and about 30 voices. They performed around town in various venues. I saw it in a church in Scottsdale that sat perhaps 300 people. It was magnificent. Beautifully played, balanced, not at all bombastic. The soprano soloist, in particular, was wonderful. A great evening.

So don't you go dissin' Georg Fredrick, OK?? \:\)

Nina

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#598736 - 07/03/04 08:00 PM Re: I can't stand this!
iplaythepiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/04
Posts: 41
Only three pieces come to mind right now, but I hate them more for what people do to them than for the music itself. Some examples are:

1. Fur Elise

I can always count on hearing this played by EVERY SINGLE NEW PIANO STUDENT I EVER MEET!!! I never liked this piece, and the fact that I would always hear it whenever my little brothers and sisters are watching "Arthur" did not help matters. While almost everyone I meet praises this piece for its so-called beauty, I just find it annoying.

2. Flight of the Bumblebee, Moonlight Sonata 3rd movement, and any other glorified fast tune you care to name.

I hate it when you can play beautiful pieces like the second movement of Beethoven's Sonata op.13, Chopin's Prelude op.28 no.7, and Bach's Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring, and people will think you are okay, but you have to play something really fast before you can be really good.

3. Anything, when it is played by Liberace.

Do you have to ask?

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#598737 - 07/03/04 10:04 PM Re: I can't stand this!
ChrisKeys Offline
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Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1273
Loc: Dallas, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by EHpianist:
I have never warmed to Hindemith. His music has never moved me emotionally or intellectually in any way.[/b]
Couldn't agree more! I have a piece of his and I have never liked it.

Also, I don't like Khatchaturian (what little of his piano pieces I have tried...)

Chris

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#598738 - 07/04/04 09:09 AM Re: I can't stand this!
BDB Offline
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Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21244
Loc: Oakland
It's hard to judge a composer on the basis of one piece, especially someone as variable as Hindemith. I don't like his first piano sonata at all, but the other two are nice. The Op. 11 #4 viola sonata is a beautiful piece.
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#598739 - 07/04/04 10:47 PM Re: I can't stand this!
Frungy Offline
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Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 283
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Fur Elise is so overplayed, I decided to learn it with the hands switched (left hand playing top, right hand playing bottom). Give it a try, it's pretty fun, and you can show off against the novices :-P.

Anyway, having just played Bartok's Miraculous Mandarin, I'd have to say it's one of the worst pieces I've ever played. I like his Concerto for Orchestra, but the MM has no structure whatsoever, it's like he just glued a bunch of motifs together.
Next concert we're doing Beethoven's 7th (love the 2nd movement) and Bruckner's 9th (without finale). I'd have to agree that Bruckner is one of the most repetitive composers I've heard. "I'll take a 10 minute movement, and slap a repeat mark at the end. I won't even bother changing the key."

I like almost all romantic music (Bruckner doesn't count, they even had to call one of his symphonies "romantic".) I'm surprised about the hostility to Tchaikovsky and Grieg's piano concerti... ignoring the repetitive chords in the T, there's a very beautiful melody there. And I love his violin concerto.

I blame Schoenberg for the destruction of classical music. The Russians like Rachmaninoff and Prokofiev kept romantic music alive as long as possible, but now there's practically nothing except atonal "innovative" garbage. I'd rather listen to a symphonic adaptation of Nintendo theme music than anything coming out today.

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#598740 - 07/05/04 06:57 AM Re: I can't stand this!
mrenaud Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 1308
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by Frungy:
I blame Schoenberg for the destruction of classical music. The Russians like Rachmaninoff and Prokofiev kept romantic music alive as long as possible, but now there's practically nothing except atonal "innovative" garbage. I'd rather listen to a symphonic adaptation of Nintendo theme music than anything coming out today.[/b]
Schoenberg has, if anything, kept classical music alive. Surely you've sampled a representative selection of 20th century music to reach such a conclusion.

Besides, the Miraculous Mandarin is of course episodic. It's a ballet score, after all.

I have also expanded my list a bit. I can't stand:

- Bach
- Mozart
- Rachmaninov
- Grieg
- Tchaikovsky
- Chopin
- Generally all music that sounds older than it is
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#598741 - 07/05/04 08:22 AM Re: I can't stand this!
Frungy Offline
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Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 283
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
What is "classical music"? When Schoenberg came along with 12-tone atonality, I think he destroyed creative thought and turned music into mathematical formulae. If you were to play some wrong notes in most 20th century music in the school of Schoenberg, you probably wouldn't even notice that you made a mistake.

I admittedly don't know much about what's being pubished today though. I would say that many film scores, like Gone With the Wind or Dr. Zhivago could be characterized as classical.

And mrenaud, you can't stand any of those composers? Who exactly do you like pre 20th century, just out of curiosity?

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#598742 - 07/05/04 10:29 AM Re: I can't stand this!
BDB Offline
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Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21244
Loc: Oakland
I've sampled, and noted audience reaction to, enough 20th Century music to believe that 12-tone music is a dead end, as is most of what was written to be "classical" music, and that what will become "classical" will be other forms. As Frungy said, film music has replaced the incidental music to plays, just as the musical has replaced opera.
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#598743 - 07/05/04 10:52 AM Re: I can't stand this!
mrenaud Online   content
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Posts: 1308
Loc: Switzerland
12-tone is as formulaic as traditional functional harmony. Schoenberg did deviate from the row when he felt like it, he (unlike some others) did make music with it. Total serialism, on the other hand, is a dead-end (though, here too, some composers, notably Boulez and Nono, did make music with it).

There are many pre-20th century composers I do like, e.g.:

- Haydn
- Beethoven
- Scarlatti
- Liszt
- Dvorak
- Mussorgsky

And some 20th century composers who used tonality in interesting ways (e.g. Prokofiev, Mahler, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, etc.).
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