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#600670 - 02/18/09 09:43 AM Fingering descending chromatic scale in (mostly) major 3rds
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Please look careful at the following ;\)





You will notice that the first interval at the top of the descent is in fact a minor 3rd (as is the final Eb-Gb), but the rest in between are all major ones. I have worked out a few alternatives so far, (mostly based around the principle of the sliding the second finger from Gb-F and Db to C wherever they occur and maintaining legato in the top line), however I am still not 100% happy with any of them[1].

So I thank you in advance for your suggestions... oh, and of course will award a PianoWorld Virtual Gold Star for the first person to identify the (admittedly not particularly obscure) work in question \:\)

Michael B.
[1] My teacher has been on holiday for 2 weeks so I can't ask his advice until Friday!
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There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#600671 - 02/18/09 03:54 PM Re: Fingering descending chromatic scale in (mostly) major 3rds
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17671
Loc: Victoria, BC
How about this :

Bb/Gb - 4/2
A/F - 5/1
Ab/E - 3/1
G/Eb - 5/2
Gb/D - 3/1
F/Db - 5/2
E/C - 4/1
Eb/b - 3/1
D/Bb - 4/2
Db/A - 3/1
C/Ab - 5/2
B/G - 4/1
Bb/Gb - 3/2
A/F - 5/1
etc., - continue as above :

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
Writing from Paris until 15 May, 2014

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#600672 - 02/18/09 04:36 PM Re: Fingering descending chromatic scale in (mostly) major 3rds
Goldberg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/08/03
Posts: 1229
Loc: U.S.
Gold star? I'll take it! Liszt's paraphrase on "Rigoletto" by Verdi. Though not, as you said, especially difficult!

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#600673 - 02/18/09 04:58 PM Re: Fingering descending chromatic scale in (mostly) major 3rds
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
 Quote:
Originally posted by Goldberg:
Gold star? I'll take it! Liszt's paraphrase on "Rigoletto" by Verdi. Though not, as you said, especially difficult! [/b]
Isn't that "Rigor Mortis" by Joe Green? Sorry, I couldn't resist. :p
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#600674 - 02/19/09 03:31 AM Re: Fingering descending chromatic scale in (mostly) major 3rds
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Sorry Goldberg, I'm fresh out of Gold Stars, but worry ye not, I can go one better and award you a Proper Trophy instead \:\)





Bruce, thanks very much for the suggestion: by the time I saw your message last night I didn't have time to compare how it feels shifting the lower-note thumb on the two adjacent white notes, rather than sliding the second just before and doing 2-1 instead. As with a lot of these kind of situations, as long as the top line is clearly articulated and legato, one can get away with less than legato for the lower line. When I get home tonight I'll give the various options a run-through and report back soon.

Horowitzian:
Sorry, I couldn't resist.[/b]

Pah, I can resist anything (except temptation, obviously \:\) )

Cheers,

Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#600675 - 02/21/09 04:33 PM Re: Fingering descending chromatic scale in (mostly) major 3rds
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Ahoy there,

Here's what I decided on in the end. It turns out that a 4/2-4/2 downward double slide seems to work well for my hand, and gets me off to a good start on the way down. It then becomes a 3/2-4/2 at the octave below:

Cb/Ab/D - 5/3/1
Bb/Gb - 4/2
A/F - 4/2
Ab/E - 3/1

G/Eb - 5/2
Gb/D - 4/1
F/Db - 5/2
E/C - 4/2

Eb/Cb - 3/1
D/Bb - 5/2
Db/A - 4/1
C/Ab - 5/2

Cb/G - 4/1
Bb/Gb - 3/2
A/F - 4/2
Ab/E - 3/1

G/Eb - 5/2
Gb/D - 4/1
F/Db - 5/2
E/C - 4/2

Eb/Cb - 3/1
D/Bb - 5/2
Db/A - 4/1
C/Ab - 5/2

Cb/G - 4/1
Bb/Gb - 3/2
Gb/Eb - 2/1

I tried the thumb shift across the adjacent white notes, but couldn't get comfortably with it. I've got into the habit of sliding the second finger of the last black note of each Gb and Db when doing descending minor thirds[1], and the same technique seems to work OK with a bit of practice in the 'major' case too. YFMV of course \:\)

Best regards,


Michael B.
[1] E.g. La Leggierezza, which has positively oodles of 'em in the middle section.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#1371227 - 02/11/10 07:48 PM Re: Fingering descending chromatic scale in (mostly) major 3rds [Re: PoStTeNeBrAsLuX]
Up Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 29
Loc: Norway
This it what's said in my sheets, for those who have the sheets without the suggested fingering. I see this thread is old, but someone sometime might wonder about the same thing smile

Cb/Ab/D - 5/3/1
Bb/Gb - 4/2
A/F - 5/1
Ab/E - 4/1

G/Eb - 5/2
Gb/D - 4/1
F/Db - 5/2
E/C - 4/1

Eb/Cb - 3/1
D/Bb - 5/2
Db/A - 4/1
C/Ab - 5/2

Cb/G - 4/1
Bb/Gb - 3/2
A/F - 5/1
Ab/E - 4/1

G/Eb - 5/2
Gb/D - 4/1
F/Db - 3/2
E/C - 4/1

Eb/Cb - 3/1
D/Bb - 5/2
Db/A - 4/1
C/Ab - 5/2

Cb/G - 4/1
Bb/Gb - 3/2
Gb/Eb - 2/1

Allmost the same as PoStTeNeBrAsLuX wrote once uppon a time.

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#1371267 - 02/11/10 09:32 PM Re: Fingering descending chromatic scale in (mostly) major 3rds [Re: PoStTeNeBrAsLuX]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: PoStTeNeBrAsLuX
Please look careful at the following wink





You will notice that the first interval at the top of the descent is in fact a minor 3rd (as is the final Eb-Gb), but the rest in between are all major ones. I have worked out a few alternatives so far, (mostly based around the principle of the sliding the second finger from Gb-F and Db to C wherever they occur and maintaining legato in the top line), however I am still not 100% happy with any of them[1].

So I thank you in advance for your suggestions... oh, and of course will award a PianoWorld Virtual Gold Star for the first person to identify the (admittedly not particularly obscure) work in question smile

Michael B.
[1] My teacher has been on holiday for 2 weeks so I can't ask his advice until Friday!


I never conciously practised major third fingering, but I stumbled across something very similar to the minor third fingering that enables full legato throughout- although I've rarely played anything that requires it. I couldn't write it down off the top of my head, but have you tried the same finger slides as in Chopin's fingering for minor thirds? The principle really isn't very different.

PS. basically slide 2 from G flat to F and D flat to C. If you simply think it through and logically relate the rest to the primarily similar fingering for minor thirds, you'll save yourself a hell of a lot of time trying to decode a few thousand confusing digits one by one. The principle is scarcely different at all. It's so close that my hand basically landed on it by itself at some point after I got to grips with the minor fingering- and I'm certainly no genius. Take that as your basis and you should find there's not a single place where you have to break the legato in either voice.


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (02/11/10 09:39 PM)
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