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I notice that pianists such as Yundi Li and Evgeny Kissin are praised for having a "singing tone." I notice that the tone they bring out of the piano is unique and beautiful but I can't put my finger on why the reason is.

What exactly does it mean to have a "singing tone" and how does one achieve it?

I've always thought it is a mixture of 2 main things; the nature of the phrasing (i.e whether it's sensitive or not) and the timbre - my teacher explained to me that to get these 'singing tones' you have to fight against the hammers, even if you are playing loudly, you want the contact between the hammer & the string to be as soft as possible.

What role does pedalling have in producing a singing tone?

After all, we play with our feet as well as our hands...

Well, it is possible to produce it without the pedal...but it helps the phrasing I guess.

In my experience, singing tone has to do with 1) how one produces each note and 2) how the individual notes are connected to each other (i.e., deep legato playing). Pedal has nothing to do with it. In fact, it's a good idea to eschew from pedal while learning how to do deep legato playing.

In terms of each individual sound, the meaty part of the finger should come in contact with the keys, while the wrist and arms are relaxed, like springs. Any tension there would cause a strident sound, like a hard object hitting another hard object. In terms of the arm, imagine just raising it in the air and letting gravity pull it down toward the ground (free fall) --except that the keyboard happens to be there. At the finger tip, there's a sensation of the finger "rolling up and forward" VERY SLIGHTLY as it comes in contact with the key. When done right, the sound should be round and full instead of harsh and unpleasant.

In order to achieve the legato, the architecture of each finger has to be well established (otherwise referred to as finger independence). This allows the entire hand (and the whole arm) to remain relaxed and "open" as each finger plays a note. Relaxation, in concert with the side-to-side motion of the wrist, allows shifting of weight from finger to finger to be smooth without any jerkiness, producing beautiful legato.

That's what I've learned, in a nutshell. Sorry if it's hard to understand--it's easier to have a good teacher demonstrate it to you!

BTW, one of Yundi Li's teachers-- Professor Zhou (sp?)-- studied with Professor Ryszard Bakst, who was a prominent pupil of Heinrich Neuhaus. It's not surprising that Yundi Li has been trained to produce beautiful tone.

--c5

I agree about the legato - and it is really recommendable to skip the pedal in the beginning of the process of learning a piece.

But if the piano has a harsch sound, or odd resonaces there is no way avoid it - no touch, no rolling of finger tips, no heavy and relaxed arms. Nor can you change a badly tuned instrument by applying a special playing technique. This topic has been dealt with a lot in the Piano forum

But playing the best you can, focusing on the interpretation, will get the audience listen to the music and not simply to the sound of the instrument.

The final sound is a result of the listening process in your brain.

Jan-Erik,

As far as I can tell, in this thread we are not discussing the tone quality as a product of the piano, but of the pianist and his/her technique.
Your point is well taken about the condition of the piano influencing the quality of sound.

In regards to focusing on interpretation rather than sound: surely, making beautiful music involves not only beautiful tone production but other skills (voicing, phrasing, etc). Having said that ,though, beautiful tone production is the first and essential step to beautiful playing.
At least that's the school of thought that I come from.

--c5

It seems to me that the russian school was known for its singing tone, and they also emphasized legato playing and drop weight. Maybe it has something to do with both combined.

I've noticed a lot of pianists from that school tend to lean into the keys, which probably aided the tone a lot.

To your information - my teacher came from the Moscow conservatory. My teacher's father was professor Galli at the sazme conservatory.

Much emphasis was put on technigue and relaxation etc. But I am not convinced in the singing tone as a result of the touch.

Nor can the pianist's posture influence on tone quality. I think more important is the posistion of the listener - is he standing, sitting or lying confortably.....

I agree with Jan-Erik. I think it is a character of the instrument and possibly the room its in.

Alan

No, i think that pianists can have a certain tone in their playing. But don't ask me how they do it? Its considered part of their mastery. Not every pianist can do that of course.

Just listen to older recordings (although quality may not be perfect)

Listen to rachmaninoff, cortot, horowitz, rubinstein.

Each one certainly has a characteristic tone IMO.

I don't think these pianists for their whole lives kept recording on the same piano in the same room.

Good post Bassio,

Look, all these factors we are discussing-- the pianist's technique (sound production, phrasing, voicing, etc.), the piano's quality and condition, the acoustics of the room, the positioning of the listener, etc., etc.-- of course they ALL have influence on what the listener hears. None of these factors are mutually exclusive!
Like Jan-Erik's stated, the topic about how piano condition/quality influences overall sound has already been extensively discussed in other threads. Let's not repeat it here. Why don't we put the piano quality and acoustics out of the picture by assuming that pianists X, Y, and Z play on the same instrument in the same room? They are going to sound different from one another. The question in this thread is, WHY do they sound different?

--c5

They will sound differently because the pianists will use different volumes, tempo, phrasing, legato and staccato technique, they use the pedals in their own personal way. And they have not the same temperament, nor the same idea of how to interprete the pieces.

And you perhaps expect them to sound differently, based on your earlier experiences.

There are so many agreeable explanations, which are not in conflict with the principles of piano construction and function, and the accoustic laws.

But especially artistic people, with a vivid imagination, tend to like mysteries. So if somebody insists on believing a magic touch producing a singing tone - I will not argue any more!

I think that usually the "tone" that ppl speak of when referring to pianists has to do with their phrasing, pedalling and legato technique. The amount of detachment and relative emphasis given to each note can cause the listener to perceive a difference in "tone" ...

~pianoclif

Jan Erik,

Which part of the phrase "not mutually exclusive" do you NOT understand?? You seem heck-bent on excluding the idea that people can produce a single note with differing tone. Why is that?

BTW, I am indeed one of those "artistic people with vivid imagination" who"tend to like mysteries". I also happen to be a scientist (cell and molecular biology) who conducts basic research.

--c5

Cerulean

You first post was perfectly clear and convincing.

Whatever piano you are playing there is always a singing tone to get out of it !

Not always easy though... Beautiful tone production is essential. No interpretation can resist harh sound. And harsh sounds don't only come out of bad pianos, harsh sounds can come out the best instruments when played incorrectly.

Regards

Serge

Serge

I agree with cerulean .. and the idea that people can produce a single note with differing tone is probably true

I said that i don't know how some pianists have their own tone? but this does not deny that this exists

Look at this article from this site (although it may be imaginative Jan-Erik): http://www.musicteachermag.com/teachingcomparison1.htm

The students would gather and restlessly wait, talking in whispers. Around 4.00pm everybody would begin to murmur, Der Meister komt Der Meister walks into the room. All stand and respectfully bow toward him. The ladies kiss his hand. Liszt grandly tells all to be seated. Normally he is never spoken to unless he speaks first. He looks over the pile of music on the piano. (It was not a good instrument; every hopeful in Europe had pounded it into a discordant mess.) A piece interests him. The pianist who has prepared it comes forward at the royal summons. He plays. Liszt listens and comments. Sometimes he impatiently sweeps the miserable wretch from the piano and plays the piece as it should be played (producing from the battered piano, his pupil Siloti has said, 'music such as no one could form any idea of without hearing it'). All the young girls in the class start swooning. Der Meister smiles deprecatingly, but he is pleased.

"Not mutually exclusive" tells me nothing - English is not my mother's tongue.

I think the singing tone is something that some people worship. It's part of their musical religion. An even scientists and engingeers can be religious.

When you want a singing tone out of the piano: Imagine the tone nad sound, hear it inside you, use all the tricks you have heard of (leaning backwards or forwards, rolling your fingertips, relaxing your arms and shoulders completely, and closing your eyes etc.) as you hit the key - and most probably you will experience this singing tone.

But on a recording it will not make any difference.

A certain famous pianist once said, "A beautiful tone is easy to get. Just play the note with half of your finger on the key."