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#607984 - 01/28/09 08:04 PM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4217
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
“He understands the risks and is excited to learn.”

Agreed. Apparently though, he does not like to be taught. Part of being an instructor is allowing the student to “see” or “discover” where the problem lies.

Many of the posters on this thread have given plenty of information, nudges, and hints. Armed with all of that help, and further, with the instructional books that the OP has, or claims to have, should have gone a long way to helping solve the problem.

The OP has made several claims in this thread about fixing a colorful variety of mechanical objects. It seems that the OP would like to learn on his own and has stated so. Then why come here then? Most here have a working life as a professional technician. This is hardly doing it yourself if we tell the OP the full answer.

Some might want to go back and read the entire thread. In my book this is not a discussion, it is answering and solving a problem (sight un-seen) for a DIY’er and no proof has been supplied that this is his piano. How do we all know if we are assisting in helping to screw up a good action?

In this particular instance, the OP wanted the whole answer to the question without trying to sort it out for himself. When he does not receive the answer he is looking for he gets objectionable……

www.silverwoodpianos.com
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#607985 - 01/28/09 10:58 PM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Posted by Sliverwood;
In my book this is not a discussion, it is answering and solving a problem (sight un-seen) for a DIY’er and no proof has been supplied that this is his piano. How do we all know if we are assisting in helping to screw up a good action?


That is one of the best reasons not telling guys like this anything except it sounds as if he's already screwing it up. :rolleyes:
If he is lying to us then for sure he is going to go ahead and collect money for it and proclaim it working properly. Anyway.

So I say, if you have to suggest he find a tech or mentor, you don't have to be rude. Let one of the more polite guys, tactfully suggest it and then just echo. We don't need hysterical or insulting dissertations on this subject everytime someone asks a question.
I much prefer sarcasm.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#607986 - 01/28/09 11:05 PM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Oh, there are guys like Jerry Vivano that have done some really nice things with their work because of our help and I'm sure it has only wetted their appetite
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#607987 - 01/29/09 10:34 AM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1186
Loc: Tennessee
Greetings,
In the same sense that the balloon seller will
GIVE you a needle, here is how you space Steinway flanges.

First, actions usually migrate to the left as the stop felt compacts. Do not try to space the hammers to accomodate this global movement or you will have all the shanks sitting to the right of the bump pads.pick the majority of the shanks that are centered over the whippen rest pads and determine if you need to shim the stop block on the bass side of the action cavity.

While traveling,keep the flanges in their same position, (if you move the flanges laterally on previously compacted hammer rail cloth, they will really travel a lot, but will be unstable), you can then move the hammer from side to side by placing traveling paper on opposing corners.

If you put the paper, ( I use brown packing tape cut in various width strips, from 1/16" to about 3/16") under the proximal right corner and the distal left corner, the hammer will swing to the right without upsetting the traveling. The reverse also is true. If you keep the flange in the same indentation on the hammer rail, it will usually keep its traveling undisturbed.
If you place the paper under just one corner, you combine traveling and spacing, ie, If the hammer is traveling to the right, yet is hitting the strings as you like, then placing the paper under the proximal right corner of the flange will space the hammer to the right while also traveling it to the left.With experience,the amount of time and paper required to space and travel can be minimized.

Inre the whippens:they are spaced and traveled the same way, though everything is at 90 degrees, so get accustomed to the procedure on the hammers first. The whippens must not only align with the knuckles at the balancier window, they must also align with the capstan. This twin requirement sometimes necessitates traveling the whippen so that it is not perfectly vertical, but tht can't be helped.

There is a lot of things to keep in mind, not the least is that when you changed the spacing on well worn hammers, you will need to learn to shape and resurface them, since string grooves misaligned to strings sound terrrible.
Hope that helps,
regards

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#607988 - 01/29/09 10:37 AM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1186
Loc: Tennessee
One other things about that paper: the wider the strip, the greater the effect. Also, how far out the paper is located, the greater the effect, ie, if you place a 1/16" shim at the very edge of the flange, it will have more effect than if you place it halfway between the center and the edge of the flange.

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#1161626 - 03/12/09 01:06 AM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
bill32 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/31/08
Posts: 17
Loc: el paso, texas
Bravo Foote!
I have been working on pianos for over 50 years and am still learning everyday. The first year in the business I went to a shop in NYC. Asked a simple question and was told "we can't answer that it is a secret". There were other times as well. These so called secrets I later found were not so secret. However it is like the dark ages with these people. If I had to hire a piano man it would most likely be you as opposed to those who were unwilling to help. This thread made me think of those days. Your answer was very complete.
_________________________
Piano Tech
El Paso, Texas
tuneit@swbell.net

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#1162180 - 03/13/09 03:11 AM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges [Re: bill32]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2407
Loc: Olympia, WA
Excellent post Ed!

Speaking of spacing hammers...

A good tip I picked up at the California PTG conference this year was to space the hammers with the una chorda pedal activated. Space the hammers so that the left edge of the hammer splits the left string. Then finish by filing off the edge of the hammer.This way you end up with very uniform hammer position with the una chorda depressed.

I believe it was Richard Davenport who suggested this, but I'm not sure.

I've been getting pickier about the una chorda adjustment and voicing the past year. Steve Brady's new book inspired me to pay more attention to this. It was suggested by one of the concert artists he interviewed that technicians should pay more attention to refining the una chorda.
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Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#2283017 - 05/29/14 11:08 PM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges [Re: Ed Foote]
AWilley Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/26/14
Posts: 3
Thank you Ed, for the answer. Steinway flanges are indeed more difficult than other flanges due to the rosette shape, and I actually didn't know how to regulate them before a few weeks ago. I started by traveling the hammers with strips of brown tape at the middle of the center "hump", on either side, and then finished by spacing with little nibs of tape at opposite corners.

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#2283102 - 05/30/14 01:15 AM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges [Re: rysowers]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: rysowers
Excellent post Ed!

Speaking of spacing hammers...

A good tip I picked up at the California PTG conference this year was to space the hammers with the una chorda pedal activated. Space the hammers so that the left edge of the hammer splits the left string. Then finish by filing off the edge of the hammer.This way you end up with very uniform hammer position with the una chorda depressed.

I believe it was Richard Davenport who suggested this, but I'm not sure.

I've been getting pickier about the una chorda adjustment and voicing the past year. Steve Brady's new book inspired me to pay more attention to this. It was suggested by one of the concert artists he interviewed that technicians should pay more attention to refining the una chorda.



that is the standard method, only in treble it happens the strings have to be moved a hair

You cannot voice the UnaCorda correctly without that.. Left side cut or no depending of the method used, but positioning the hammer vs the left string is important

Good that standard methods are taught in PTG meetings

It is better to shim at the left of the action for the hammer positioning, then only regulate the UnaCorda pedal

Then using graphite or carbon paper to have clear imprints on the hammers, necessary for voicing clean with fine abrasive paper when finished


Edited by Olek (05/30/14 01:18 AM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2283343 - 05/30/14 02:09 PM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges [Re: rsross]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1435
@rsross, when I space and travel hammer flanges, I strive for consistent and parallel spacing between the flanges (i.e., I don't rotate the flange in an arc--with the screw as a pivot--unless it is an emergency concert-like situation). A tool like a non-bendy putty knife can help you feel the size of the gap between the flanges, and to also move a flange left/right. If the supporting flange screw is tight, and the screw on the flange that you want to move is slightly loose, there is a much better chance of keeping the sides parallel. I regulate until I observe consistency in the spacing; I also check the hammers with the strings to make sure I am going in the right direction. When observing parallel flanges, you should also begin to notice parallel shanks when they are held in a level plane.

Sometimes, the flange may need to go more to the side than the screw hole will allow. I use a small round file to enlarge the hole on the side that will allow for the required movement.

Next, I travel the shanks, using a rounded file (i.e., instead of tape). I find this to be more stable. I am, however, grateful that most technicians use tape--the bermajority of the time when I go through and make the flanges parallel, traveling usually involves removing the tape that someone else applied because of a crookedly spaced flange. I often use a piece of carbon paper to mark the underside of the flange to alert me to what areas are actually in contact with the flange and where wood is being removed. CAUTION: this is very dangerous if/when mistakes are made (i.e, too much, or on the wrong side), so one really needs to know what is going on (i.e., tape is safer, because it is easily reversible).

Then, heat the shanks to correct the hammer angle. This needs to be done every time a hammer traveling adjustment occurs.

If you want things to be perfect, do the whole procedure over-and-over again until you don't notice any irregularities.
_________________________
Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2283381 - 05/30/14 03:40 PM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges [Re: rsross]
adamp88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 157
Loc: Omaha, NE
You all realize that this thread is 5 years old, right? smile
_________________________
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
ASB Piano Service
Omaha, NE

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#2283384 - 05/30/14 03:50 PM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges [Re: A454.7]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1186
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: A443
@rsross, when I space and travel hammer flanges, I strive for consistent and parallel spacing between the flanges (i.e., I don't rotate the flange in an arc--with the screw as a pivot--unless it is an emergency concert-like situation).

If the supporting flange screw is tight, and the screw on the flange that you want to move is slightly loose, there is a much better chance of keeping the sides parallel.
Next, I travel the shanks, using a rounded file (i.e., instead of tape). I find this to be more stable. I am, however, grateful that most technicians use tape--the bermajority of the time when I go through and make the flanges parallel, traveling usually involves removing the tape that someone else applied because of a crookedly spaced flange.
If you want things to be perfect, do the whole procedure over-and-over again until you don't notice any irregularities.


Greetings,
I suppose the first divergence I see in my practice is that I don't space the flanges, at all. Too often have I seen shanks and flanges that don't share the same axis after being pinned together, so the spacing of the flange is no more than cosmetic. I space my shanks so that there is equal distance between the shanks, at the knuckle. This allows the maximum consistency when spacing whip pens to them. It is not uncommon to find that when the set of shanks is spaced and traveled, the flanges are all over the map. This is unimportant compared to the shanks.

I have also tried the lateral movement vs.rotating the flange to achieve spacing and consider it inferior for two reasons. This approach produces greater inconsistency of spacing between the shanks in comparison to swinging them,i.e. if you need a hammer to move over 2mm, you will lose that much space at the knuckle by lateral spacing, but less than half of that by swinging. More importantly, lateral change of placement puts the edge of the flange on new, uncompressed, rail cloth, which always creates a traveling problem by tipping the flange in relation to its old position. This problem, if then corrected, will gradually settle back as the cloth compresses, leaving the shank now traveling back the other way. I watched this happen with several of the pianos at the university that I was tracking when I came back from a week at the New York factory, ready to save all that time papering flanges by tapping them side to side. Three months later, I had to go back and retravel most of the ones I had spaced with this method. Rotating the flange keeps the dimensional change between old and new bedding to a minimum and has served me well for many years. It takes longer, but it has shown itself to me to be the more stable approach.

I have never found paper to be unstable,(and most of my action jobs are under my constant scrutiny). On wooden parts, I use brown packing tape, slightly wetted. On WNG parts, I use another kind of tape. I leave approx, 2 mm of it beyond where the flange contacts for later removal if I see fit. The composite parts shine a very bright light on issues such as stability of traveling and spacing. Since there is no wood movement to blame things on, the stability of the spacing is directly dependent on the bedding of the flange to the rail. More specific lessons are taught when more variables are removed.

It seems to me that the combination of destabilizing the flange-to-rail fit by sliding the flange over, and then correcting it by removing wood, is creating irreversible compromises for little gain.
Regards,

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#2283387 - 05/30/14 03:53 PM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges [Re: rsross]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Sure that consistency with the screws of the flange is how the job begins.

I noticed this is to be done when new flanges are installed, once spaced nicely with the screws not too tight, the screws are tightened and create the definitive imprint in the wood (that small drop of bees wax on the flanges helps to do so.)

Only on very small grands (i.e Grotrian 140) the flanges are not square to the rails all around the break and in the basses, as this allow more easy spacing/travelling. The rails are bore to allow for that while keeping the whippens centered on the keys (I noticed)

The parallel posture of the screw on the S&S flange matters when it comes to travelling the shanks, a screw that is not flat on the flange will always push it and you need a lot of paper to correct that. it is easier to hold the flange in the good position and work the imprint.

On older models, the screws are so long and the flange so much compressed I do not do that anymore, as the screw will push inside the brass rail and help to crack it.

The principle with Steinway flanges is that if they are correctly placed they will get back in place every time the screws are tightened no loss of time.

I like the method with the file,(i do so where there is solder) I use cardboard and paper, but on Renner type flanges I scrape with a small blade under the flange, that is more definitive an not too difficult as the underside is channeled a small pass with the blade take out very little wood easily.

Parallel and spaced shanks are indispensable to work the hammers

I like the directions : center the screws, space the flanges space/travel the shanks, then burn/ angle the hammers. Traveling left or right is used where the agrafes are not spaced evenly, just to keep the visual at rest.

3 passes are generally necessary. I hate doing the same things more than once, but it is wink

Regards





Edited by Olek (05/30/14 04:47 PM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2283393 - 05/30/14 04:21 PM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges [Re: rsross]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1435
Oh, I didn't notice this was an old thread...I guess the OP isn't around anymore then.
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Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2283396 - 05/30/14 04:38 PM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges [Re: rsross]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
There is an old saying "it is in the old threads we do the best soup" !
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2283400 - 05/30/14 04:43 PM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges [Re: rsross]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
spacing flanges depends of the quality of the bore and the quality of the parts, I generally have well space bore and I can use the screw centered on the flanges, which is better, the pressure of the screw is well centered.

Also the bore for the whippens is suppose to be the same, and I want the shank to center of the whippen flange.

That is how we are told, anyway. and keep a consistent hammer travel, not adjusting it to aftertouch, the key dip can be adjusted a little eventually, or the reason why aftertouch is not even find and corrected.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2283408 - 05/30/14 04:51 PM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges [Re: Ed Foote]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Originally Posted By: A443
@rsross, when I space and travel hammer flanges, I strive for consistent and parallel spacing between the flanges (i.e., I don't rotate the flange in an arc--with the screw as a pivot--unless it is an emergency concert-like situation).

If the supporting flange screw is tight, and the screw on the flange that you want to move is slightly loose, there is a much better chance of keeping the sides parallel.
Next, I travel the shanks, using a rounded file (i.e., instead of tape). I find this to be more stable. I am, however, grateful that most technicians use tape--the bermajority of the time when I go through and make the flanges parallel, traveling usually involves removing the tape that someone else applied because of a crookedly spaced flange.
If you want things to be perfect, do the whole procedure over-and-over again until you don't notice any irregularities.


Greetings,
I suppose the first divergence I see in my practice is that I don't space the flanges, at all. Too often have I seen shanks and flanges that don't share the same axis after being pinned together, so the spacing of the flange is no more than cosmetic.


This happen more easily when no jig/support is use to control the squaring of the center (or even correct a bad squaring) .

Ideally a jig and long centers (60cm) as the ones that where use in NY Steinway factory in the 30's.
But even with small centers, hand reaming is more secure when the flange is hold in a gig.
ON new Renner parts I never have such squaring problems.

All those "cosmetics" allow for a way more precise/easier job with hammers, as our eyes use all possible references (as when shaping hammers, eyeballing the center line from the tail to the crown helps to see if the head is symmetric)

As when gluing new heads working with the bench parallel to a wall, square to others, help the body to perceive better the best hammer vertical position at gluing time


Edited by Olek (05/30/14 04:57 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2283487 - 05/30/14 08:27 PM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges [Re: rsross]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1435
Olek, it is good to read that you also find flange spacing/squaring important!

Flange spacing is more than cosmetics. When a shank's position is changed at the screw, the hammer will appear to drift from one side to the other [as it travels through the arc], then they get shimmed with paper to correct this movement--technicians often say it is not necessary to take note of how the shanks travels as they move to a straight up-and-down position (i.e., one need only travel to the horizontal position). I prefer my shanks to travel straight throughout the entire arc of possible travel, which happens through proper flange spacing/squaring--then, I am only dealing with real traveling issues (i.e., only very minor wood adjustments are necessary. BTW, I take note of the flange, knuckle, and shank when making sure everything is properly in alignment.

Flange spacing/squaring works perfectly with manufactures that are able to produce actions where the string position, hammer flange screws holes, whippen flange screws holes, and capstans are all in alignment. It becomes problematic when manufactures don't do their job correctly. So, Ed's method deals with a problem that the manufacturer created [which should have been corrected during construction]. When flange proper spacing/squaring alignment causes other problems (e.g., the screw head too far on one side when aligning the flanges to the strings or whippens), then compromises need to be sought out.
_________________________
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Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2283597 - 05/31/14 03:55 AM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges [Re: rsross]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Sure it is not so easy to index the holes of the action rails to the strike line, taking in account the lateral motion of the crown.

it account for a +- 2mm displacement of the bore where the angles of hammers are significant.

We face those problems each time action position and/or strike line are modified.

Key capstan placement is also a source for trouble. hopefully with today laser measuring tables and devices, we can expect a good lining and spacing between parts.

Originally that is on the bridge that the spacing begins, as there are more strings by bridge length in the rounded part of the treble bridge. and the boring distance should not be less large than 13 mm or the parts will rub.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2283599 - 05/31/14 04:04 AM Re: Adjusting Steinway flanges [Re: rsross]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
about moving the shank out of the 90 of the rail, this is advantageous to limit crown lateral motion around the break.

I even think it may serves to balance the hammer mass better. There is more mass on one side of the shank. within limits, of course.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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