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Topic Options
#609601 - 01/24/09 09:58 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3294
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Gadzar, I have tuned double octaves and octave + 5ths for nearly 30 years using the Sostenuto pedal. I also tune double octaves + 5ths that way too in the high treble and low bass. I couldn't imagine using such a clumsy device nor would it fit in my tool bag!

Ron, your perception is correct!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#609602 - 01/24/09 11:37 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Germany
Ron and Bill:

The article Jim quoted here, dates back to january 2004 and is prior art of the OnlyPure method, which i introduced in mid 2004.

The aural OnlyPure method is a refinement (developped in 2004 after the discovery of the symmetry phenomene) of my initial work. In my initial publication of 1988 and my daily tuning work i described and used the duodecime spanner to set the temperament duodecime.

With the 3/1 partial matching technique i described in the pianotech article i contributed a less strange solution that does not require such a "clumsy" tool for pro-level techinicians.

It seemed to be a vaild approach to me at this time. (And it is still valid of course, as all other temperaments and solutions are valid also. But we are discussing refinements for a special possible acoustic effects duo to the symmetry here)

I had enough experiences from colleagues here in germany, laughing about the spanner tool. The refuse of Bill to use it tells clearly that the situation did not change principly.

Today i prefer to use my software to tune, as the aural OnlyPure methods still requires 2,5 hours of hard work, whereas i come to the same results in much less time (about 1,5 hours tuning the instruments 2 times for stability). And the aural OnlyPure method is LOUD due to the three notes used.

Best regards,

Bernhard Stopper
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#609603 - 01/24/09 05:53 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1674
Loc: Chicagoland
Yes, I thought the date on the post may mean something...

Thanks for responding, I still look forward to having a chance to play one of your tunings. You answered another question for me by indicating that you use the software to get the same results - that it just wasn't an aural speciality of yours - glad to hear that.

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#609604 - 01/24/09 10:05 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3294
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thank you also from me, Bernhard, for your response. Just as with me, my technique and understanding constantly evolves from year to year. I do not outright reject the use of the tool which is described but for me, personally, it would not be of much use. I apologize for calling it "clumsy". It would only be that for me.

I tune other intervals wider than the hand could possibly reach: double octaves, 12ths, double octaves + 5ths and triple octaves. I alternate between them. To me, it is not a problem to play the two notes being tuned, hold them with the Sostenuto pedal and then adjust the desired string while it sounds. If it needs to be struck again, I keep my foot on the pedal. If I want to listen to another interval, I quickly change to that. For my purposes, I simply do not need the tool but for those who find it useful, it does not deserve ridicule.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#609605 - 01/25/09 06:02 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
All:

I was busy yesterday with a relative's furnace. Much of the problem was "new wine in old bottles". Keith will know what I mean.

Gadzar:

I worked the other way around the circle of fifths and used the BW checks.... But after two hours I gave up on setting the temperament this way. I think much of the problem was tuning across the break. So I finally decided to just set an octave a bit wide, tune my temperament and then polish as I tuned the beatless 12ths. I noticed that tuning them with the spanner sets a very exact interval and that other tests will show the slightest departure from ET. This should work the other way also. I can check the beat rate of ordinary 12ths as octaves are tuned in my customary way to check my ET.

Jim:

Thanks so much for the archive. It was relieving to see confirmation of my earlier suggestions for tuning a P12th temperament.

Bernard:

I am so glad that you cleared up the confusion I had. Now I know that many of your posts in the pianotech archives were about tuning P12ths and that the OnlyPure method is something similar, but different. I look forward to the publication of the explanation you have planned for this year.

Ron:

I can’t agree more about “finding a way to make the whole piano work together the best way possible.” The P12 tuning did not seem to do this.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#609606 - 01/25/09 10:51 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
And I thank you, B Stoppard. I started this thread as a pure technical learning experience. I wasn't trying to promote or steal. There has been some very valuable posts on the realities of piano tuning here. I am very happy you decided to contribute.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#609607 - 01/25/09 11:26 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Stoppard? Isn't it Stopper?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#609608 - 01/25/09 11:54 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jorge Maroto Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Bordeaux - France-
Hello and asorry for the late intromission.

According to Mr. Roberts (and as the Stopper's webpage also claims) PureOnly software does not need stretch measurements or presampling notes. You can just set the pitch and start tuning notes in any order. My question is: how a software, or any procedure, can deal with inharmonicity, intervals (three note chords!), canceling beats etc. if there is no presampling and if the tuning sequence does not matter?
I think I am missing something.

Thanks and regards,
Jorge

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#609609 - 01/25/09 12:06 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
RoyP Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 787
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Thanks for everyone's responses. It's been fun.

I still have questions about the software. There are certain things about it that make alot of sense, as I said earlier.

Is it measuring multiple partials? In other words, is it more similar to Verituner or Cybertuner/Tunelab in this respect?

It works on an iPhone? My understanding from Robert Scott was that the sampling rate on an iPhone isn't fast enough to run his tuning software. Am I recalling this correctly? That's why he has Tunelab for Smartphones, but not the iPhone. What about the OnlyPure software is different? I don't have an iPhone, and would be running an iPaq. So, for me the point is mute, but I wonder about this. My daughter has an iPod Touch, and it's an impressive little machine. If OnlyPure in fact works well on one of these, it would be really tempting to get one.

What about pitch raise capability? Can it do overpull?

Is there a way to adjust the sensitivity of the display? Overall, I'm wondering how flexible of a tool this is. So far, it sounds to me like software that I might want to have for the occasional piano, but not for everyday use. I mean, when you run across that Kimball console that hasn't been tuned in 20 years, you're probably still going to want to use Tunelab, or Cybertuner, with their overpull feature. Not all, or even most, tuning situations involve conditions which are ideal. So often, we are making pianos sound less bad, not creating a work of tuning art. It's just the reality of real world piano tuning. We do our best with what we have to work with. But most pianos don't get tuned enough, let alone all the other work they need. So, unless this software can do more than is now apparent too me, it seems like more of a specialized application.

I will be visiting someone in a few weeks who has the OnlyPure software. So, I look forward to trying it out for myself.
_________________________
Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
www.cincypiano.com

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#609610 - 01/25/09 07:34 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Sorry my mistake. I was trying to get the first name right and messed up the last.

I have no idea how it works. I'm not into heavy math. I would think that it bases where it places the note on the partial structure of that wire.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#609611 - 01/26/09 07:22 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I did not see anything on the website saying you can start tuning with any note. It does say that you select the base pitch and start tuning without measuring individual notes; it does the calculations in the background. If you start with A4 and tune chromatically, it could measure the iH as you go.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#609612 - 01/26/09 07:45 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jorge Maroto Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Bordeaux - France-
Yes. It was Mr. Roberts who explained in the first mail of the topic that "order of notes tuned made absolute no difference". I have supposed that he has tried the software.

Regards,

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#609613 - 01/26/09 09:01 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
It has no memory (storage). Why would it matter what note you play next? It doesn't retain the info from the previous note.

I think if you go to the CAUT Achives of Kent Swaffords post the I got the MP3 files from, you will find that is what is said. Use the link to Stoppers explanation to get to the CAUT archives.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#609614 - 01/26/09 09:09 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1674
Loc: Chicagoland
No pitch raise, either.

The interesting thing to me, was when it was used to tuned two mis-matched pianos together for a recital. The results lead me to believe that there isn't any measuring of the piano inharmonicity going on. I even have a vague memory reading that the onlypure math matching trumps the inharmonicity differences of each piano.(?)

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#609615 - 01/26/09 09:58 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Robert Scott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 286
Loc: Minnesota
 Quote:
Originally posted by RoyP:
...It works on an iPhone? My understanding from Robert Scott was that the sampling rate on an iPhone isn't fast enough to run his tuning software...
Yes, that was what Apple Support told me. However I have heard from several other developers, especially Faber Acoustical, who say they are sure the new 3G iPhones do support the higher sample rates. I am anxious to try this out for myself, but I won't be able to run code on a iPhone until Apple gets around to issuing me a developer's certificate, which can take months.
_________________________
Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com

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#609616 - 01/27/09 12:06 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Keith Roberts:
It has no memory (storage). Why would it matter what note you play next? It doesn't retain the info from the previous note.

I think if you go to the CAUT Achives of Kent Swaffords post the I got the MP3 files from, you will find that is what is said. Use the link to Stoppers explanation to get to the CAUT archives. [/b]
Keith:

Maybe you could provide us with a link to support what you are saying.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#609617 - 01/27/09 02:43 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1674
Loc: Chicagoland
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#609618 - 01/28/09 08:34 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Ron:

Thanks for the links. I remember reading these posts before. I do not remember any posts from Mr. Stopper saying that the notes can be tuned in any order, but apparently it is included in the instruction for the tuning device. Until more is known, I am going to stand by a previous post of mine:

 Quote:
Originally posted by UnrightTooner:
RoyP:

I suspect, but do not know, that Stopper’s tuning device tunes to theoretical pitches based on the 19th root of 3 and does not measure inharmonicity.

This could be a melodic model of the human ear and the best compromise between pianos. In other words, this may be the pitches that people want to hear and also may be a great way to tune pianos with different scales so that they sound good together. [/b]
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#609619 - 01/28/09 09:00 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Germany
Concerning the Tunic OnlyPure software i can confirm that:

- Notes can be tuned in any order.

- Nonlinearity is taken into consideration for every note.

Regards,

Bernhard Stopper
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#609620 - 01/28/09 09:34 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Mr. Stopper:

Thank you!

Can you explain more about the “Nonlinearity”? So many things are nonlinear. Do you mean the nonlinearity of the iH curve, which is ideally shown as a straight line (except in the lower bass) on log-log paper? If so, does your software measure the nonlinearity of iH for the specific piano being tuned?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#609621 - 01/28/09 11:46 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Germany
Mr. Deutschle,

With nonlinearity i mean that the partials are not harmonic.

Regards,

Bernhard Stopper
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

Top
#609622 - 01/28/09 12:00 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Mr. Stopper:

Thanks again!

Does your software use the same nonlinearity regardless of the piano being tuned?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#609623 - 01/28/09 12:11 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Germany
No, nonlinearity is different at every note and on every instrument (even with the same manufacturer/model) and as i already mentioned, the software takes consideration of nonlinearity of every note of the instrument that is actually to be tuned.

Regards,

Bernhard Stopper
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

Top
#609624 - 01/28/09 12:23 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Mr. Stopper:

I appreciate your time and patience very much.

I think I may now understand. Is this correct?: Your software determines the nonlinearity of the note that is being tuned, calculates the correct pitch, and gives indication to tune the note being played to this calculated pitch, regardless of the nonlinearity of any other notes on the piano.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#609625 - 01/28/09 03:30 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Germany
Mr. Deutschle,
I appreciate your acceptance that i provide a limited amount of details.

Regards,
Bernhard Stopper
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

Top
#609626 - 01/28/09 06:53 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jorge Maroto Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Bordeaux - France-
I think the software must establish an initial equal partition based on a P12 fundamental frequency scale: (3 x fundamental of lower note) = (fundamental of higher note). The software cannot, in principle, calculate: (third partial of lower note) = (fundamental of higher note). Then, for each note, it must calculate an offset which depends only on the inharmonicity (what Mr. Stopper calls non linearity) of the individual note (and maybe on other spectrum characteristics but for that single note) .

Regards,

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#609627 - 01/28/09 07:08 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jorge Maroto Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Bordeaux - France-
 Quote:
The software cannot, in principle, calculate: (third partial of lower note) = (fundamental of higher note)
This always implies an order in the tuning

Top
#609628 - 01/29/09 07:34 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Mr. Stopper:

I respect your prerogative to disclose only what you wish, and am thankful for your willingness to disclose what you have.

Rather than ask another question, permit me to add a thought. Ron Koval was glad to hear that this tuning could be reproduced with an ETD “…..you use the software to get the same results - that it just wasn't an aural speciality of yours - glad to hear that.” Hopefully the reverse is also true, that the ETD tuning can be reproduced aurally. Wish I knew how.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1849993 - 02/23/12 04:42 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 414
Loc: Boston, MA
I want to revive this thread out of dormant curiosity.

Does anyone have the material passed out - or detailed notes - from Mr. Stopper's lectures in Kansas City this past year?

It seems there was a lot of speculation around what he was doing, but no academic paper published.

Thank you!
_________________________
www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.

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#1850018 - 02/23/12 07:13 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Tunewerk:

I have followed Mr. Stoppers posts on this and on the PTG list dating back many years. One reason it is difficult to understand just what he is doing is his desire for credit and for establishing precedent. (Heck, there are worst things to desire. I desire scrapple!)

Page 4 of this Topic is an example: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1722977/Beatrate_jumps_across_a_break.html
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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