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#609481 - 10/22/08 12:59 PM Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
I wanted to point out to you guys the discussion about perfect 12ths tuning on the CAUT list. Really it is about the new tuning program you can get on your I-phone. It uses Bernhard Stoppers program and theories of perfect 12th tuning.
Kent Swafford posted a mp3 of two pianos tuned together using Pure Tone (I think that's the name) Remarkably good and the tunings are considered high quality. He tuned a Bosey Imperial and a S&S D.

The amazing thing is, the program uses no memory. It doesn't matter whether you tune one note on one piano and then one on another. Order of notes tuned makes absolutly no difference.

I posted some of Stoppers arguement in the tuning pin topic.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#609482 - 10/22/08 03:37 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Erus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Mexico
 Quote:
Originally posted by Keith Roberts:
The amazing thing is, the program uses no memory. It doesn't matter whether you tune one note on one piano and then one on another. Order of notes tuned makes absolutly no difference.
Computer programs use memory, period.

Perhaps you meant this one uses a different approach, where the whole tuning is not calculated before starting to adjust the tension, or something like that?

The original mp3 file seems to be gone, do you still have it? If so, could you please upload it somewhere for those of us who didn't manage to get it?

This is very interesting (in both computational and tuning matters). Thanks for posting this here \:\)

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#609483 - 10/22/08 05:05 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
I meant temporary memory. It doesn't store any previous data.

Here is Stoppers site;
http://www.piano-stopper.de/html/tunic_onlypure1.html

The Bosey and D using it;
http://www.kentswafford.com/mp3/d_dorf.mp3
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#609484 - 10/22/08 06:35 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
R Barber Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Morgan Hill, CA
Stopper's taking a beating in the iPhone app store review section. The so-called "Tunic Guitar" goes for Free (A=430Hz), lite for $25 and the full for $60. I remember the piano one going for $600+, but I didnt see that in iPhone yet.

So if the piano is $600, and you get 88 notes, for $6.82 per note. On guitar, you have the five notes there, so that would make $34.09. The lite seems like it is a deal at an almost 9 dollar savings.

The lite doesn't have the ability to adjust its scales though. The pointy interface doesn't seem eye-pleasing as he describes it in the store, although it's great for accuracy and visibility.
_________________________
Richard Barber, piano technician
Santa Clara Valley, CA
tune@pianoregulation.com

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#609485 - 10/25/08 10:28 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2258
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Has anyone else had any experience with the Stopper Tunic OnlyPure software? The tuning of the Bosendorfer and Steinway D sounded great...thanks for that link!

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#609486 - 10/25/08 11:40 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
The tunings are getting rave reviews
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#609487 - 10/25/08 08:17 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I heard Stopper's tuning at the National in June. I must say I was blown away.


He played an octave - it sounded fine, nice and clean. Then he played the tonic- fifth interval and the fifth - octave interval. They sounded good - a nice, slow roll. Then he played the tonic - fifth - octave. It was absolutely pure and clean! The beats canceled each other out. It was amazing.

When playing big chords with both hands, any key: after the initial attack, the chord just stood there in the room, solid and clean, it sounded like a church organ.

You can calculate octave stretch and inharmonicity all you want - when the sounds makes the hair on the back of your neck stand on end, you know something good is going on.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#609488 - 10/25/08 09:07 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Here is an audio file of an Everett Spinet done in the same manner as the Bosey and D

http://www.kentswafford.com/mp3/cn.mp3
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#609489 - 10/26/08 07:35 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Ron Alexander Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 1292
Loc: North Carolina
Forgive me for being a "party pooper" on this one guys. I'll probably take some heat for these comments, but I listened to these mp3 files (repeatedly). And I dont hear what you guys seem to be hearing.

First let me say I am not a fan of recorded piano music. Getting a good recording of a piano by itself, is a highly artistic thing, and few people achieve it with a high degree of success. I tolerate a piano with an orchestra or other instruments much better.

I think the tuning on the Bosie and the D were better than on the Everett Spinet (of course).
I was for the most part with you guys during the first 5 to 10 seconds of the recording, then to me it kind of falls apart. Listen to those unisons, especially in the upper end. Not good.
Listen to the Octaves being played together. They make my skin crawl. Very dirty like badly tuned fifths.

Overall I personally dont believe these recording are examples of excellent piano tuning.

Just my opinion, of course.
_________________________
-----------------
Ron Alexander
Piano Tuner-Technician

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#609490 - 10/27/08 08:26 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
You're not going to get any heat from me Ron.

I have to say that I agree with Ron. Like he said, maybe it's the way the recording came across but, personally, I doubt that. It's the same on all of the tunings although, worse on the Everett. I heard out of tune unison's especially up in the higher treble area.

I didn't like the way the lower bass sounded either. I thought it was to sharp.

The further up he went, the flatter the octaves were in comparison to the mid range and lower notes, they weren't stretched. When playing 4 octaves together, it sounded pretty bad to me.

If you noticed, on every test, the further he went up, the faster he played it. People usually do that so that you can't hear it as well but, I could still pick it out. So, over all, while it was probably "ok" or, so he thought, it wasn't good enough to suit me. I wouldn't use a tuning that sounded like that in the end. Maybe too, it was the tuner not familiar enough with the tuning, I don't know but, I do know that I wasn't satisfied with the tuning overall.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#609491 - 10/27/08 09:37 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Thomson Lawrie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 283
Loc: Grimsby ON Canada
Thanks for posting this Keith it sounds really interesting. I'm an aural tuner but I am looking at Reyburn Cybertuner and Verituner and would be interested in this as another option. I would really like to hear this on a piano that I could try out in person.

There seems to be a bit of a disconnect here. I doubt that the tuning on this recording would have made the hair on the back of Jurgen's neck stand on end. ( Maybe on the top of his head).

It's too bad the recording is just a bunch of arpeggios I sure wouldn't be checking a tuning out that way if I got to sit down to one of these pianos. I would have liked to hear some long octaves and double octaves and some M3, M10 & M17 progressions. I would have liked to hear some sustained unisons in the mid range. I know from personal experience that a mediocre tuning can sound passable if you just play a bunch of chords and don't linger over the intervals too long.

The top end sounds really flat but I know that I stretch the last octave a more than Tunelab for example, which I have been playing around with. I just can't live with the flat sound and until I start hearing otherwise from my clients, I won't be changing that any time soon. Nice to hear from others on this. The treble stretch sounded off to me.

The spinet sounds really bad but then spinets always do. I would have liked to hear some chromatic octaves around the bass tenor break and some double octaves held long enough to hear how much they wobble.
_________________________
Piano Technician
www.pianotech.ca
Piano tuners make the world a better place, one string at a time.

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#609492 - 10/27/08 09:48 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
PianoQC Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 49
Loc: Montréal, QC, Canada
I’m not a tuner-technician nor a physicist, but when I read things like this, I have my doubt about the seriousness of Mr Stooper:


"It is not possible to reach this precision with the usual electronic tuning devices or the usual two-note aural bearing plan techniques. Since the devices jugde the pitch and frequency in the frequency domain, it is necessary, due to the HEISENBERG UNCERTAINITY to analyze the signal over a relative long time. Tuning those three-note octaves and fifths combinations aural to pure state, aural pitch setting is as accurate as tuning unisons aural, what defintitvely does not work with nowadays ETDs."


A rapid search in Wikipedia: "In quantum physics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle states that the position and momentum of a particle cannot both be known simultaneously. "

What has Heisenberg uncertainty principle to do with piano tuning?

Another example:

"[...] the FRACTAL SYMMETRY of the beat-relations to the interval relations in the “stopper-tuning”. Since due to the extension of the tuning matter FROM TWO DIMENSIONS TO THREE (AND MORE) DIMENSIONS the octaves/fifths problem dissappears, the mighty octave must be asked in place."

He also speaks of supersymmetry...

I would be interested to have the opinion of a physicist/mathematician...

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#609493 - 10/27/08 10:09 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
I have had a listen to the audio file, and I can tell you this is not a fair example of this tuning. To really judge this type of mathematical equation, I feel the instrument needed to form a fair opinion, would be something in the 6ft. range or longer. Underneath this, the math scale (on the plate) produces too much error. On the spinet it may not be out of tune unisons, it may be a case of poor string or poor scaling.

As far as running this by a physicist, I would think that they might be able to give you the math on a page or academically, correct or not correct, but with each instrument the math may change slightly according to the attributes or the shortcomings of each instrument. This would be where tuning changes from a science to an art. Each piano is slightly different is very subtle ways. The tuner’s job is to find the “feel” of where the math equation “sounds best” on each and every piano. Sometimes the math has to be abstracted considerably for the sound to line up correctly, especially on small uprights.

Like Thomson I would like to try this temperament out on my own, up close and personal.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#609494 - 10/27/08 10:33 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Dan, I posted the link to the long grands. The spinet recording was done in response to the asking. It's the comparison.

I didn't ask if the piano was still strip muted. I would think you would leave it in to check the tuning. I thought the Everett sounded great... for a spinet
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#609495 - 10/27/08 11:20 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Sorry Keith,
I missed that, my fault, I will go back and review, don’t know what is wrong with me lately…..
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#609496 - 10/27/08 11:30 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Kent Swafford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 42
Loc: Kansas City
Thanks for all the comments about the audio files of tunings done with Bernhard Stopper's software.

I think the tunings are good, but then, since I was the one who did the tunings, I would think that, wouldn't I? 8^)

These were real tunings of real pianos; they were not done under lab conditions. All unisons were open, no mute strips. The recordings were done in the field with an inexpensive digital audio recorder.

There is no perfect tuning among tunings done by someone other than oneself. It is easy to find fault with a tuning when you were not the one who had to work out the compromises.

Not everyone will like these tunings. If you are one who doesn't like the tunings, then don't give another thought to them or to Stopper's software.

However, plenty of people will like the tunings, and for those people, I am reporting a new software tool that is available.

Thanks,

Kent Swafford

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#609497 - 10/27/08 12:02 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Hey Keith,

I went back now and listened to the other files.

Yes the tuning sounds better on a better piano no doubt about it. Ok, A sharp, D flat and D there is something wrong up top with these. In the top two octaves, I can hear flatness or something,... the circle of fifths is off somewhere. I really need to be there to determine what I am hearing correctly.

The spinet, I didn’t think did the tuning justice, but remember it is a spinet. For me it sounds like a nicely tuned spinet. You can hear the poor tones on that one, mostly poor string, not the tuning. Actually the top of the spinet sounds better than the other two.

I would agree with you about checking the tuning by leaving the strips in. However, I check the “sound of the tuning” by taking an octave and a third, and playing chromatically down or up with all tools removed from the instrument.

There should be a smooth roll increasing slightly all the way up and the reverse going down. Also if you strike 4 C’s or 4 F’s all at once and see how much “wind” there is in the stretch.

I can’t seem to find your mention of other information in the tuning pin thread? I saw the posting earlier last week before you started this thread but no luck in finding it……………….

Hello Kent,

Welcome to this forum. I am an aural tuner only. Do you have a place where I can get the mathematical equation to try this out myself, or is it just for machine tuners?
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#609498 - 10/27/08 01:27 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Piano QC, it would be nice if you spelled the gentleman's name correctly... \:D

Stopper will be the first to tell you that the uniquness of this tuning is so sublte as to not, or hardly, become apparent in short pianos, never mind PSOs like the Everett.

And while he may bring in some references and terms that you or I don't understand, please don't discount him or his work for that. And above all, do not doubt his seriousness, especfially being a non-tech as you are.

Stopper is an extremely bright man. He studied to become a piano builder under one of Germany's foremost master craftsmen piano makers, who accepted only top-notch applicants. He has quite the resume.

In the end, it is the tone and character of the piano that matters. And having heard, felt and experienced it, I am now a believer. Do I use his software? No. I am an aural tuner. But maybe in the very near future that will change.....
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#609499 - 10/27/08 02:30 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
PianoQC Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 49
Loc: Montréal, QC, Canada
I’m just a little bit surprised to find terms like "Supersymmetry" and "Heisenberg uncertainty principle" in Mr. Stopper’s documents as these are terms always used in the context of Quantum Mechanics (theoretical physics) and (to my knowledge) have nothing to do with macroscopic world. But, OF COURSE, I can be wrong. Perhaps Mr. Stopper could explain what he means...

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#609500 - 10/27/08 02:50 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20779
Loc: Oakland
He means that his last two degrees are More of the Same, and Piled Higher and Deeper.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#609501 - 10/27/08 09:19 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
sorry, double post
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#609502 - 10/27/08 09:49 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Either way, a piano is either in tune, or out of tune. Whether mean tone, ET tuning, Well Tempered, Stopper tuning or what have you, if the unison's are not correct, the piano is out of tune with either tuning regardless of said tuning.

I discount the Stopper tuning in that regard for this reason. The fact that if you listen to most notes played in the center section, comparing them to most notes played in the upper register, in particular, the utmost highest register, the upper register is actually quite flat of the mid section and, many unison's are out of tune as well.

Now, maybe this is the way this particular tuning is designed to be. This, I do not know. But, I was trained that, either a piano is in tune, or it's not. Which is it? ;\) In this case, it is not. Don't take it wrong, I'm not being sarcastic... \:\)

That's what I'm pointing out.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#609503 - 10/27/08 10:35 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Jerry, are you talking about the Bosen, and The D or the Everett? An everett spinet could have so many false beasts and strings out of phase that really it is unfair to complain about that.

For the sake of a true test, a strip muted piano would be better.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#609504 - 10/27/08 10:37 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
All 3 Keith. Of course, the Everett sounded the worst.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#609505 - 10/28/08 10:55 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Coolkid70 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 378
Loc: Irvine, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by PianoQC:
I’m not a tuner-technician nor a physicist, but when I read things like this, I have my doubt about the seriousness of Mr Stooper:


"It is not possible to reach this precision with the usual electronic tuning devices or the usual two-note aural bearing plan techniques. Since the devices jugde the pitch and frequency in the frequency domain, it is necessary, due to the HEISENBERG UNCERTAINITY to analyze the signal over a relative long time. Tuning those three-note octaves and fifths combinations aural to pure state, aural pitch setting is as accurate as tuning unisons aural, what defintitvely does not work with nowadays ETDs."


A rapid search in Wikipedia: "In quantum physics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle states that the position and momentum of a particle cannot both be known simultaneously. "

What has Heisenberg uncertainty principle to do with piano tuning?

Another example:

"[...] the FRACTAL SYMMETRY of the beat-relations to the interval relations in the “stopper-tuning”. Since due to the extension of the tuning matter FROM TWO DIMENSIONS TO THREE (AND MORE) DIMENSIONS the octaves/fifths problem dissappears, the mighty octave must be asked in place."

He also speaks of supersymmetry...

I would be interested to have the opinion of a physicist/mathematician... [/b]
I'm a math student.

Though I'm not an expert in math or physics, I suspect that there's a little fuzziness going on here.

First of all, as you mentioned, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle really only applies to material on the quantum level (we can sometimes try to apply quantum mechanics to the real world, but any conclusions we might draw are very negligible). So I'm just as stumped as you are - I have absolutely no idea what this could have to do with piano tuning.


I once read a book called Fractals in Music by Charles Madden. There was quite a bit of discussion on self-similarity, which he describes using the concept of "Cauchy sequence". To illustrate, consider hooking a video camera up to your TV, where the TV displays whatever the camera captures (have you ever done this before?). What if I point the camera toward the TV itself? We can see the TV within a TV, and a TV within that TV; the "sequence" will go on forever, but we will see that eventually, the TV's get arbitrarily close together, almost to the point where the distance between them will vanish. If we were to zoom in further, we will still observe the same configuration. Perhaps this same effect can be seen when you view a mirror with a mirror.

So, Madden talks about how the harmonic series forms a Cauchy sequence. We can see this by examining the series for A-55: 55Hz, 110, 165, 220, 275, 330, etc... If we look at the ratios between a term and its preceding, they are: 2, 1.5, 1.333333..., 1.25, and so on. If we continue, we adjacent terms will get closer and closer to each other (and, actually, this sequence will converge to 1) - we say that this sequence in particular is indeed Cauchy. Given this, we might conclude that the harmonic series is self-similar.

The actual excerpt involves talk of "Fractal Symmetry" and tuning in "higher dimensions". Fractals are very peculiar objects that exhibit self-similarity, a type of symmetry. It could be that "Fractal Symmetry" really means self-similarity. More clarification is needed. And, again, the talk of "higher dimensions" could perhaps refer to techniques in modeling the vibrations of a string, for instance, by using ideas from Linear Algebra to find a (possibly infinite dimensional) vector space to do it. But, this is such a vague statement, and really needs more clarification.

My personal opinion of those excerpts is that they are written to make it appear that there is something very deep (and perhaps intimidating) about this method. So, I wouldn't take it very seriously.

Please let me know if I could perhaps provide more clarification on some of these ideas, or if you have any comments.

-Matt
_________________________
Kawai K-3 (2008)

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#609506 - 10/28/08 11:52 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
His statement about the uncertainty principle was made in reference to his tuning device having to take a longer time to determine the note placement, not the actual note placement. It seems to be an explanation of why his device isn't as fast or something.
You are right, it has nothing to do with tuning but the actual physics involved in reading sound waves. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that is true, it just appears like that is what he is talking about.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#609507 - 10/28/08 12:48 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Kent Swafford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 42
Loc: Kansas City
Ah well. If people wish to trash the recordings, that's fine.

Here is a description of the recordings, so you will know exactly what it is you are trashing -- or appreciating.

I offer an audio recording of a Steinway D and a Bösendorfer Imperial tuned together with Stopper's software. By the way, PureTuner tunes the notes of the scale down to C0, so all 97 of the Bösendorfer's notes can be tuned directly by PureTuner.

I have uploaded an audio file to:

http://www.kentswafford.com/mp3/d_dorf.mp3

My recording attempts to show that each piano is well-tuned with itself and that the pianos also are tuned together quite well. The Steinway plays first and should be on the right. The pianos are side by side. In the recording you hear Steinway arpeggios, then Bösendorfer arpeggios, a Bösendorfer chord of nature progression, a Steinway chord of nature progression, and finally a chromatic scale played on both pianos together.

The recording was not done under "laboratory" conditions; these are real tunings of real pianos; there may be questionable unisons in the high treble, especially on the Bösendorfer. You are welcome to come try to tune them yourself if you think you can do better!

I believe the results that are heard in the recording are good. These results are interesting given how PureTuner was able to accomplish the tunings without taking readings off of either piano in order to calculate a tuning before beginning to tune.

Although the Steinway D and Bösendorfer Imperial have widely disparate scales, and tuning them together is a good demonstration of PureTuner's capabilities, some are wondering how well PureTuner can tune a spinet.

There is another audio file at:

www.kentswafford.com/mp3/cn.mp3

This is an audio recording of the results of a tuning with PureTuner of a Cable-Neson spinet built by Everett. Everett spinets have some of the highest inharmonicity on the planet. The recording follows the form set by the previous Steinway/Bösendorfer recording: arpeggios, chord of nature progression, chromatic filled-in triple octave across entire keyboard, chromatic 12ths across entire keyboard, and finally some chromatic 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, and 6ths in the midrange. I believe the results are good, and as always, PureTuner took no readings from the piano in order to calculate a tuning. One just boots the program, chooses a pitch level, and starts tuning in any order.

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#609508 - 10/28/08 01:13 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Coolkid70 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 378
Loc: Irvine, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Keith Roberts:
His statement about the uncertainty principle was made in reference to his tuning device having to take a longer time to determine the note placement, not the actual note placement. It seems to be an explanation of why his device isn't as fast or something.
You are right, it has nothing to do with tuning but the actual physics involved in reading sound waves. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that is true, it just appears like that is what he is talking about. [/b]
Thanks.

I looked into it a little more, and it does indeed seem that the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle does have an effect on reading the vibrations of a string. The main result is that the longer you attempt to read the frequency, the easier it will be to determine.

An informal discussion can be found here: http://www.geocities.jp/imyfujita/wtcuncertain.html
_________________________
Kawai K-3 (2008)

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#609509 - 10/28/08 02:05 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
PianoQC Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 49
Loc: Montréal, QC, Canada
Thanks Coolkid! I will show this to my father-in-law, who is a retired professor of mathematics.

Whew! Happy I wrote "I can be wrong"...

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#609510 - 10/28/08 02:39 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Robert Scott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 268
Loc: Minnesota
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kent Swafford:
...PureTuner took no readings from the piano in order to calculate a tuning. One just boots the program, chooses a pitch level, and starts tuning in any order...
How does this square with the common understanding that the degree of stretch needed for a good tuning depends on the inharmonicity of the strings? With the SAT, CyberTuner, TuneLab, and Verituner, the target pitches are dependent on the inharmonicity of the particular strings in that piano. The first three of these devices take inharmonicity measurements ahead of time, and the Verituner takes measurements as you tune. In exchange, Verituner places some reasonable limitations on the order of tuning. Even purely aural tuning, when measured afterwards, shows the tendancy to make the overall stretch depend on the inharmonicity.

If Stopper's PureTuner software allows tuning in any order without pre-measurements, then supposedly I could start tuning at C8 if I so desired. That means the software would have to already know the target pitch of C8 before any inharmonicity information is available. Whatever that target pitch is, it would have to be the same for a high-inharmonicity piano and a low-inharmonicity piano. Has anyone posted a typical Stopper tuning as measured by, say, a SAT?
_________________________
Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com

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#609511 - 10/28/08 03:12 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Patrick Draine RPT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/29/08
Posts: 21
Loc: Billerica, MA
Hey, I've been holding my breath waiting for Jerry Groot to post his own set of audio files! Seriously though, I'm glad Kent took the time to explain what the files were about (which he had explained on the CAUT list; Keith started this thread by posting the link without a full explanation). Tuning with 3:1 intervals in the high treble can result in more contracted octaves than those tuned by 4:1 double octaves. So that is probably part of what Jerry was commenting on.
BTW, Kent is running the OnlyPure program on a Windows Mobile PDA , which has been available for about a year. I await the iPhone version, although I'll need to have a hands on session with the program before I part with my $$.
_________________________
Patrick Draine RPT
www.drainepianoservice.com

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#609512 - 10/28/08 03:44 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
“Ah well. If people wish to trash the recording, that’s fine.”

I don’t agree with this statement. People have offered their opinion, and their preferences. This is what I am reading…………… as you have stated previously Kent, some folks will like this and others will not. Some folks are Dodge people. Others drive a Chevy.

“You are welcome to come try to tune them yourself if you think you can do better!”

Would tuners be “doing it better” with the Stopper temperament or with what they use at the present time?

Perhaps you are over-reaching with these comments?
_________________________
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www.silverwoodpianos.com
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#609513 - 10/28/08 03:48 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Ron Alexander Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 1292
Loc: North Carolina
quote:
Hey, I've been holding my breath waiting for Jerry Groot to post his own set of audio files!

Now that's kind of s smirky statement there, Patrick. I'm sure if Mr. Groot wants to post some audio files of his tuning, he will do so.
But it sounds kind of sarscastic in light that he was simply giving an opinion, just like we all are doing.

This thread began with several people giving opinions about how great this temperament is. Maybe it is. I'm not questioning that. But anytime someone posts their work there, they open themselves up to both positive and negative feedback.

I for one did not hear what the others were raving about when I listened to the mp3's. But note I qualified my opinion by stating that recordings to me bring out the inherent falicies
of pianos unless they are recorded under the most ideal circumstances.
_________________________
-----------------
Ron Alexander
Piano Tuner-Technician

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#609514 - 10/28/08 08:03 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
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Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Don't be snippy, you guys. Kent is a respected member of the guild. His tunings, while maybe not immpecable, certainly were good enough to show the Stopper program to you. Maybe our estimation of our tunings is better when it can't be scrutinized so minutely as it can when it is recorded....
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Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#609515 - 10/28/08 08:57 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Thomson Lawrie Offline
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Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 283
Loc: Grimsby ON Canada
Kent,

I like the tuning on these recordings. I think I would be pretty happy to walk away from these pianos if I had done the tuning. I felt that the high treble sounded a bit flat in the first recordings that Keith posted but I don't hear that in this recording. I would really like to have the chance to sit down to a piano that has been tuned with the stopper program.

I can't pretend to understand the principles that this program employs but all that really matters is does it work, is it a useful tool? If this is the result then the answer is yes.

I still hate the sound of spinets, even when they are well tuned.
_________________________
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www.pianotech.ca
Piano tuners make the world a better place, one string at a time.

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#609516 - 10/28/08 09:59 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Kent Swafford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 42
Loc: Kansas City
quote:
Perhaps you are over-reaching with these comments?

Woah. When I said it's fine to trash the recordings, I meant it, literally. One doesn't put recordings like this out there unless one is prepared to accept criticism.

It would be good if those criticizing the recordings knew exactly what they were hearing. That's all.

I originally posted this to PTG CAUT list, because I thought those who were familiar with tuning a Steinway to a Bosendorfer would be impressed with the tunings. That appears to have been true.

Thanks for the material on the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Very helpful.

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#609517 - 10/29/08 12:02 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
It would be interesting as Thompson says, to hear the tuning in person rather than via an internet recording played back through mere computer speakers. Perhaps it does sound better in person than it did being recorded and then played back in this manner.

It is interesting regardless that this thing can tune all of the notes on a Bose for one and do so without doing a check as some other programs are required to do. In further thinking on the matter, fine tuning with no mutes or strips isn't an easy task either.

Perhaps, at the next PTG Convention here in Grand Rapids Michigan next summer, we will get an opportunity to listen "up close and personal" to this program. That would prove interesting.

I would wonder what a concert artist might think of this tuning? Would you be satisfied with this type of tuning and the sound of it? But then again, they would probably have to set down and play the piano itself to form a good opinion one way or the other.

Any concert artists out there that might wish to contribute or pose their opinion on the subject?

Keith, I know who Kent is. I'm not trying to be snippy or offensive. Just stating my own opinion on what I heard is all. Perhaps I should have tried writing it differently. :-)

Patrick, I thought you were kinda snippy though. :p I presume that you're joking of course but, either way, I don't have the time or desire to post that stuff and have no clue how to anyway... ;\)

I'm just tossing out my opinion as I said about what I heard, like some others here, that's all. No offense intended to anyone out there.

But, if you really want to know what kind of work I do or, what my tunings sound like? Just call our chapter president and ask him what he thinks of me and my work... I'll be glad to give you his number if you want it. \:D
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#609518 - 10/29/08 06:58 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jeff A. Smith, RPT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/03
Posts: 476
Loc: Angola, Indiana USA
 Quote:
A rapid search in Wikipedia: "In quantum physics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle states that the position and momentum of a particle cannot both be known simultaneously. "
I'm not a physicist, but one specific thing I seem to remember about this principle has to do with the quantum experimentation context it arose out of: On the quantum level it's impossible to do measurements without the possibility that the method of measurement itself will affect a quantity being measured. Measuring one quantity is done with the cost of actively changing the other quantity. I don't see how Stopper's device changes the actual pitch of a string but, even if it did, it seems a little goofy to me -- and a stretch -- to take a principle derived from a totally different context and apply it to piano tuning.

I'd be interested to hear Robert Scott's concerns addressed, if anyone's able to do that.

Kent S., thanks for making an appearance here. I hope you'll hang around and contribute more in the future.

Jeff
_________________________
Jeff A. Smith
Registered Piano Technician
Indiana, USA

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#609519 - 10/29/08 07:34 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Coolkid70 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 378
Loc: Irvine, CA
Jeff,

I posted a link above explaining this phenomenon in respect to measuring the frequency of vibrations on a string. Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle does apply on this level, even though it might not necessarily be obvious.

Check it out and see what you think.
_________________________
Kawai K-3 (2008)

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#609520 - 11/21/08 01:37 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
You know, for the heck of it, I recorded my own tuning onto my cell phone after I did a concert tuning on a Steinway D. Holy MOLY what a difference!

I had no clue how rotten a recorded tuning could sound. Especially on a cell phone!!

While the tuning itself was fine, I double checked afterward to make sure nothing had changed. My octaves, unison's etc., were all where they were supposed to be in perfect tune. So, I recorded it again THREE TIMES with the exact same results.

After listening to the recording a few minutes later I thought, WOW, these cell phones sure do a rotten job of reproducing good tunings big time!!!

That made me realize that I no doubt, jumped to conclusions on Kent's Stopper tuning and learned a valuable lesson. The tuning we do will not come out the same recorded onto something as chintzy as a cell phone. Even on a better quality recorder, unless you maybe spend thousands on the recording device, it will not sound the same as being there in person. So, Kent's tuning was probably just fine. I'm sure that the fact that it was recorded and then sent through the internet, is what seemed to have changed things possibly even more so.

I thought this was important to point out for future reference.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#609521 - 11/21/08 03:17 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
John Dutton Offline
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 251
Loc: Billings, MT
The piano is one of the hardest instruments to record well even if you have a pair of DPA 4006's or a pair of Earthworks PM40's.
_________________________
Piano Technician
Pro horn player
Recording Engineer

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#609522 - 11/21/08 06:19 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Ron Alexander Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 1292
Loc: North Carolina
I agree, the piano is extremely hard to get a good recording of. It takes extremely good, ie. expensive mics to get their true sound.

I too feel I was too hard on Kent's Stopper temperament. I extend to him my apology.

Good point Jerry,....good for future reference.
_________________________
-----------------
Ron Alexander
Piano Tuner-Technician

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#609523 - 11/21/08 07:34 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
David Jenson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 1955
Loc: Maine
"The tuning we do will not come out the same recorded onto something as chintzy as a cell phone. Even on a better quality recorder, unless you maybe spend thousands on the recording device, it will not sound the same as being there in person." Jerry Groot

--------
And how!!! 'Takes really good (expensive) mics and a recording engineers knowledge of placement and processing to record a piano well. I never even bother to try to evaluate the tuning on a recorded piano. Not enough information comes through the mics.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#609524 - 11/22/08 01:18 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
KawaiDon Offline
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Registered: 02/05/02
Posts: 1207
Loc: Orange County, CA
I listened to the pianos at the PTG convention in Anaheim, and I also listened some to Mr. Stopper's explanations. I was not at all favorably impressed with either the tunings or his discussions. Based only on his explanations, I feel that the software is flawed because, as Robert Scott mentioned, it does not seem to have the ability to adjust to the individual piano's inharmonicity. This is a fundamental requirement of any piano tuning software or device, in order to begin to approximate what an aural piano tuner does naturally.

I have to give a disclaimer to my opinion of his tunings. I had a very hard time really listening to the piano tunings at the convention. Mr. Stopper remained very close to me all the time, and seemed to be trying very hard to elicit positive comments from me while I was testing the pianos. It was not a pleasant experience, and I would have really enjoyed just sitting and listening for 10 minutes or so, in order to get a better understanding of why I didn't like what I was hearing.

Don Mannino
_________________________
Don Mannino, MPA
Kawai America

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#609525 - 11/22/08 02:17 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 204
Loc: Germany
Dear Mr. Mannino,
I apologize for having stolen 5 minutes of your valuable time.
Probably the beating of octaves and double octave caused the dislike of what you heard. Unfortunately i had no luck to come into deeper discussions with you why i am doing so.

My tuning software does indeed taking consideration of inharmonicity.

Best regards,
Bernhard Stopper
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#609526 - 11/22/08 03:44 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bernhard Stopper Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 204
Loc: Germany
I want add that the tuning Mr. Mannino listened to and he is referring here was later commented by David Andersen "Angels flying out of the piano"
(A Steingraeber concert grand i prepared for David Anderesen)

Bernhard Stopper
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#609527 - 11/22/08 04:49 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2076
The spinet sounds great to me. I'm not a tuner but I've played plenty of spinets that have lots of inharmonicity and the recording sounds like you could actually make music with that one anyway. Of course the best thing would be to have two recordings of the same piano, one with a traditional tuning and one with this special tuning. One MP3 of each, please!
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

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#609528 - 01/11/09 01:03 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jerry Viviano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 263
Loc: Cary, NC
I'm an aural tuner who just did my first ETD tuning with Tunelab Pro. So am not that familiar with all of the ETDs, especially Stopper's. I don't understand the discussion of poorly tuned unisons. I would think that the ETD is only used to tune one string of a key. That string becomes the reference for that key. The unisons for that key then should be tuned aurally against the reference string, not by use of the ETD. The quality of the unison tunings then are a reflection of the quality of the human tuner, not the ETD.

I did find that Tunelab's spectral display was useful in roughing in the unisons in the high treble, but then fine-tuned them all by ear to get them beatless. Does the Stopper system have some system for fine tuning unisons better, or quicker, than could be accomplished aurally?
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Jerry Viviano
V. I. Piano
PTG Associate Member

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#609529 - 01/11/09 05:58 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1695
Loc: Massachusetts
I think Stopper's tuning is more straightforward than the impression this discussion may leave. Traditionally, tunings, if there were no inharmonicity, would produce perfect octaves. The Stopper tuning, with no inharamonicity, would produce perfect twelths. The theory behind this is at Stopper's website, and no doubt he does a better job explaining it than I would.

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#609530 - 01/12/09 04:51 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Mexico City
I've looked at Stopper's website and there is no explanation at all of his temperament.

Is there a book or any other source to consult on the Stopper's temperament?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#609531 - 01/12/09 07:30 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jerry Viviano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 263
Loc: Cary, NC
I had the same problem. There are real problems with his web site. Play with google enough you can find some info on it. Here is a page on some information on the theory, although I haven't had time to read it yet.

http://www.piano-stopper.de/html/stopper_tuning1.html

The basic idea is that a it is based on making 12ths beatless instead of octaves. A 12th is an octave and a fifth. An example would be C4 to G5. The frequency of G5 is 1.5 times that of C5, which is 2 times the frequency of C4. That means G5's frequency is 3 times that of C4's. Their are 19 semi-tones between C4 and G5. As always, the frequencies of the semi-tones progress exponentially. So the frequency between a note and the note a semi-tone below it is the 19th root of 3. Using that relationship, the frequency of G5, which is 19 semi-tones above C4, ends up being 3 times that of C4, the expected results. Using this relationship you'll see that you get similar, but slightly different ratios for the approximations to just intervals than you do if you use the twelfth root of two semi-tone steps.

I understand that much about it. Why that should result in better tunings, I don't know yet. I just found out about this yesterday, so haven't had time to thoroughly research it.

Hope this helps.
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Jerry Viviano
V. I. Piano
PTG Associate Member

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#609532 - 01/12/09 07:43 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1695
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Originally posted by Coolkid70:

I looked into it a little more, and it does indeed seem that the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle does have an effect on reading the vibrations of a string. The main result is that the longer you attempt to read the frequency, the easier it will be to determine.

An informal discussion can be found here: http://www.geocities.jp/imyfujita/wtcuncertain.html [/b]
Please, anyone, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the mathematical derivation that purports to show that the uncertainty principle applies to musical waves is utter hogwash.

The derivation starts with the formulas for the uncertainty principal and for energy, but on the 6th line of the math, the author introduces the energy of a photon, and uses that to derive the result. What does the energy of a photon have to do with measuring the vibration of a sting? Right--nothing. Plus, one can disprove his theory practically--one can measure the frequency of an electronic signal with extreme accuracy--accuracy that is far better than his supposed proof indicates.

Bah, humbug!

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#609533 - 01/12/09 08:14 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4791
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I have not read all the different posts on the Stopper Tuning. I don’t need to because the theory is very simple. Beatless 3:1 twelfths are the goal, which will also produce narrow 6:2 twelfths. Just as any octave type (2:1, 4:2, etc) cannot be truly beatless and will also cause different pianos to sound, well, different, so will tuning beatless 3:1 twelfths. It should also be noted that this is not a frequency ratio, but a coincident partial match. Because of iH, the frequency ratio will be more than 1:3, the same as when tuning a beatless 2:1 octave the frequency ratio will be more than 1:2. I don’t believe that there can be a “one size fits all” stretch scheme that will be best for every piano. How could there be when every piano scale is different, every piano is voiced differently, is in a different environment, and has different ears listening to it?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#609534 - 01/12/09 12:02 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Erus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Mexico
 Quote:
Originally posted by Roy123:
Please, anyone, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the mathematical derivation that purports to show that the uncertainty principle applies to musical waves is utter hogwash.
[/b]
I think it's not hogwash, however, this is more on the realm of information theory than on applied physics. It's about attempting to make EXACT measurements, instead of accurate ones.

Engineering is about "good enough", you need things to work, but don't have eternity or all the energy in the universe to accomplish that. Good enough sometimes mean VERY precise measurements, but that's not exact.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Roy123:
Plus, one can disprove his theory practically--one can measure the frequency of an electronic signal with extreme accuracy--accuracy that is far better than his supposed proof indicates.[/b]
No you can't, it's not about practical matters. Extreme accuracy won't equal exactness, that's the point. Measurements are made UP TO some level of precision, and there is an error associated with them.

Check this link:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/uncertainty.html

They have some very nice pages on the acoustics of musical instruments.

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#609535 - 01/12/09 12:49 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1695
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Originally posted by Erus:
[I think it's not hogwash, however, this is more on the realm of information theory than on applied physics. It's about attempting to make EXACT measurements, instead of accurate ones.

Engineering is about "good enough", you need things to work, but don't have eternity or all the energy in the universe to accomplish that. Good enough sometimes mean VERY precise measurements, but that's not exact.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Roy123:
Plus, one can disprove his theory practically--one can measure the frequency of an electronic signal with extreme accuracy--accuracy that is far better than his supposed proof indicates.[/b]
No you can't, it's not about practical matters. Extreme accuracy won't equal exactness, that's the point. Measurements are made UP TO some level of precision, and there is an error associated with them.

Check this link:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/uncertainty.html

They have some very nice pages on the acoustics of musical instruments. [/b]
I have to disagree--the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is very much about practical matters. It describes how precise measurements can be. This is by no means a philosophical topic. What's at stake in tuning a piano is being able to measure the difference between two or mores tones. What is needed is therefore precision, not exactness.

In the referenced article, the author states, "If you want to determine [middle] C with this precision 0.0001Hz, you need Δt of 800 sec, or 13 min 20 sec." I believe by precision, he means resolution, and that's the only thing of consequence when dealing with musical tones. The requirement for absolute accuracy is relatively non-critical.

The difference in period between middle C and another note that differs by .0001 Hz is about 1.5 nanoseconds. The length of time required to measure that difference is only limited by the noise and precision of the electronics used to measure it. Ten seconds of such a note will bring the difference up to about 4 microseconds, which is EASY to measure--no tricks required. His theory says it will take 800 seconds. Once again, I say, "Hogwash!" If the measurement can be made in far less time than his theory predicts, then, by definition, the theory is flawed.

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#609536 - 01/12/09 02:00 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4791
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Giving the benefit of the doubt to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle being applicable to piano tuning, does the Stopper Tuning deal with it differently than other tuning methods?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#609537 - 01/12/09 04:24 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Erus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Mexico
 Quote:
Originally posted by Roy123:
the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is very much about practical matters[/b]
The uncertainty principle prohibits exact knowledge of initial conditions, and repeated performances of such processes will diverge. The consequences of the uncertainty principle are usually only important for extremely small magnitudes.

According to that middle C example requiring requiring 800 seconds, he's aiming for a precision of thousandths of a cent, Is that precision reasonable for piano tuning/music theory, or is it more on the crazy side of things?

 Quote:
Originally posted by Roy123:
If the[/b] measurement can be made in far less time than his theory predicts, then, by definition, the theory is flawed.
*A* measurement or *THE* measurement? It's not the same. Having *A* measurement that is good enough doesn't mean the theory is wrong.

We can make measurements (using very affordable technology) in far less time than those, and they work just great for our applications. You are completely right about that, and I agree, we are not aiming for crazy precision and things work.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Roy123:
I believe by precision, he means resolution...[/b]
Higher resolution is no substitute for longer measurements, however it is very important.

The Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem would be more relevant to resolution.

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#609538 - 01/12/09 04:34 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
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I've read some of the theory on the Stopper's web site, thanks for the link Jerry.

Does anyone knows how to aurally tune the Onlypure method?

 Quote:
Originally posted by Supply:
I heard Stopper's tuning at the National in June. I must say I was blown away.


He played an octave - it sounded fine, nice and clean. Then he played the tonic- fifth interval and the fifth - octave interval. They sounded good - a nice, slow roll. Then he played the tonic - fifth - octave. It was absolutely pure and clean! The beats canceled each other out. It was amazing.

[/b]
Is it for example: A3-E4-A4? A3= tonic, E4 = fifth, A4 = octave?

Then you have a slow roll on each of the intervals: A3-A4 octave, A3-E4 fifth and E4-A4 fourth. And then if you play the three notes together the beats cancel each other out. Is that so?
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#609539 - 01/12/09 11:09 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Supply Offline
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Yes, that was undoubtedly what everyone heard. I would not say the octave had a slow roll, it sounded quite pure. Apart from that your underanding is correct. In addition, when large chords were played, the tone was so well blended that the sustained sound was like that of a pipe organ. As I said, I have never heard anything like it.
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#609540 - 01/12/09 11:57 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Gadzar Offline
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So does anyone know how to aurally tune the Onlypure tuning? (excuse my poor english, I couldn't find a better way to ask this, I hope you can understand it).
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#609541 - 01/13/09 07:31 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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I have some ideas how I would go about it, but have never tried. I am in love with 4:2 octaves in the mid section.

If no one else posts how to tune it aurally, I will share my ideas in a day or two.
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#609542 - 01/13/09 07:43 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Roy123 Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Erus:
[QUOTE] Having *A* measurement that is good enough doesn't mean the theory is wrong.

[/b]
Oh, yes it does. The article claims that any such measurement can't be done in that amount of time, but it can--over and over. Your appeals to the sampling theorem also do not dispute my counter example. Counters running at 10 megahertz, 100 megahertz or whatever, can be used to measure the period of middle C. That sample rate greatly exceeds the Nyquist criterion, so the sampling theory agrees that my example method is valid.

Finally, and most importantly, the article used the energy of a photon to purportedly prove a claim about measuring the frequency of musical tones. Using the energy of a photon may well make a valid proof about measuring the frequency of light, but unless someone can explain what the energy of photons has to do with measuring the frequency of sound waves or vibrating strings, then my conclusion is once again that the article is pseudo-science.

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#609543 - 01/13/09 12:42 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Supply Offline
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The Stopper tuning can be done aurally, in fact Bernhard Stopper was doing that for quite a few years before he developed the ETD.

To tune it aurally, you need to play the fifth above the octave along with the tonic. Unless you have pretty big hands, :^) you need a bar that will reach this intervall and play those keys together.
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#609544 - 01/13/09 01:28 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Erus Offline
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The formulas in that article are not using the speed of a photon (quote):

"the formula can be transformed into the relation between time and frequency of waves".

Then, it is transformed and even marks:

"...Here, there is no 'h'... The position and momentum of a wave in space have been changed in form to the time and frequency of a wave..."

Plank's constant is out and the connection with the electromagnetic world is gone. The inequations he uses deal only with time and frequency, which can be used for sound. The speed of a photon is not being used there.

I mentioned Nyquist-Shannon because you said "I believe by precision, he means resolution". The Nyquist-Shannon theorem is about sampling (it is relevant to resolution), and it is not being discussed here. Sampling frequency is no substitute to longer measurements according to the article being discussed. That's why I mentioned it, because you are talking about something else, not about uncertainty.

I know counters that run at high frequencies, how they work and what they can do. They work great (as in "good enough" taken to amazingly high standards), and that is not being discussed. That article is not about electronics, but about a physical limitation that can't be overcome.

The point of the article is not that those counters don't exist or don't work. It's point is:

"If you want to get the exact Middle C, you need an infinite time and a continuous wave of C."

If time increases, you can get a closer approximation, with shorter measurements you can't be that approximate. It doesn't matter what you use to make those measurements.

*Exact* is the keyword here. You cannot get exact measurements, period. What you can get is approximations. We can currently have great approximations, "good enough" for A LOT of applications. There are devices that give AMAZING measurements, but that doesn't mean exactness.

We can make a lot of things to try to get as close as possible, but that doesn't mean being exact.

I am not saying we cannot measure a frequency. I'm saying we cannot measure it and be 100% sure we are 100% right. I am saying we can have very good estimations and things work great: my computer works, ETD's work, software based ETD's running in PDA's/phones/laptops and what not work great, but are not exact (they are much more precise than we, humans, can be).

I have no elements to prove that point discussed in the article is wrong, but am not saying it can't be proven wrong. It could indeed be utterly rubbish, but so far I have no elements to prove it is.

To prove it is wrong, you need to show the maths are wrong, or that some physical principle is wrong or incorrectly applied. This kind of thing goes beyond current technology, because the article deals with a physical limitation and you want to use technology that has ITS OWN limitations. You need to overcome the limitations of that technology to attempt to prove the physical limitation discussed in the article.

To prove it wrong by making measurements you need to aim for *exact* repeatable measurements with current technology. Is that possible?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement_uncertainty

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#609545 - 01/13/09 04:27 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Roy123 Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Erus:

"the formula can be transformed into the relation between time and frequency of waves".

Then, it is transformed and even marks:

"...Here, there is no 'h'... The position and momentum of a wave in space have been changed in form to the time and frequency of a wave..."
[/b]
He eliminates 'h' by using the energy of a photon, which contains 'h'. In so doing, he ends up an 'h' on both sides of the equal sign, and he is thus able to divide it out. Without using the energy of a photon, the 'h' is NOT eliminated.

That is the whole point of what I've been saying. His derivation relies on sticking in the energy of a photon, and then, with no explanation or justification, claiming that the result is valid for any kind of wave. Unless you or anyone else can give us valid reasons why using the energy of a photon in this context is valid, his thesis is just so much bologna.

Look carefully at his equations and you'll see his slight of hand. I have no interest in discussing this any more. I think I have clearly stated the flagrant problem with the author's derivation. The math doesn't lie. This is not an argument about what precision or exactness means--what's at issue is ONLY the author's mathematical derivation. I'm done.

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#609546 - 01/14/09 09:04 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
RoyP Offline
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Besides arguments about the theory behind the tuning, I still am curious about the tuning software. It's hard to get any information. There is virtually no information on his website. When I contacted Mr. Stopper a few weeks ago, he emailed back and just said to read the mailing lists and forum. That was it. Well, the PTG archives have been down. You can find some cached pages. There must have been some high praise on the PTG lists that he is banking on. There are no trial versions of the software available, so you can't try it out.

The basic concept of what he is trying to do has potential. If he says that the program doesn't use memory, I think he just means that it doesn't stored calculated tunings. If the program has one set stretch standard, this simplifies calculations, doesn't it? It wouldn't have to take measurements and do calculations before you start. It could be doing calculations in the background as you tune and it gathers information. It obviously would use some memory to run the program. It must take some sort of reading, and maybe it reads inharmonicity as you tune. But, since there doesn't seem to be a way to get information on this, we are left to guess.
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#609547 - 01/14/09 09:47 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Since no one has posted on how to aurally tune beatless twelfths I will give it a try, even though I have never tuned it. I choose to refer to this tuning as beatless twelfths rather than the “Stopper” or “OnlyPure” method. I am not sure what those are and do not want to give out misinformation on Mr. Stopper’s work.

Since this is based on beatless twelfths, it seems that it should only be used with Equal Temperament. Otherwise, any key color will shift by a fifth for each twelfth of the piano's scale. A full keyboard arpeggio would progress through many tonal colors.

When tuning perfect twelfths there is a stretch added beyond what is required by inharmonicity for beatless 2:1 octaves. The additional stretch is 2 cents per 19 semi-tones, or 0.1 cent per semi-tone. So an octave will have 1.2 cents, a fifth 0.7 cents and a fourth 0.5 cents of additional stretch. The fifths will beat one third slower and the fourths one quarter faster than they would when tuning with beatless 2:1 octaves.

The A3-A4 octave should be wide by one beat in three seconds. When this is established, a check of octave type can be used as a reference to tune other octaves until sufficient notes are tuned to allow beatless twelfths to be tuned. The m6-M3 test for 8:4 octaves may be helpful.

An RBI test for the beatless 3:1 twelfth is the M6-M17 test. Example: F2-D3 beats the same speed as F2-A4

A SBI test for a beatless 3:1 twelfth would be the P5-P8 test. Example: D3-A3 beats the same as A3-A4.

Since the twelfth uses the low partials of 1 and 3, but RBIs use the higher partials from 3 thru 6, a sudden change in RBI beat rates can be expected across the tenor break on smaller pianos.

A tool that spans a twelfth on the keyboard is probably a good idea, especially at the extreme ends of the piano.

I skipped the math, but if someone asks, I will provide it.
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#609548 - 01/14/09 10:00 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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RoyP:

I suspect, but do not know, that Stopper’s tuning device tunes to theoretical pitches based on the 19th root of 3 and does not measure inharmonicity.

This could be a melodic model of the human ear and the best compromise between pianos. In other words, this may be the pitches that people want to hear and also may be a great way to tune pianos with different scales so that they sound good together.
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#609549 - 01/14/09 10:26 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Gadzar Offline
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It is clear that what you say is correct. But it is not enough to tune the Streched ET of Mr. Stopper.

How do you set the 19 notes in the temperament 12th? A la Braid White? You tune from the A4 note by fifths, expanded fifths, until you reach the 12th to check if it closes the circle of 12ths?

Or can you proced with another scheme a la CM3rds, that is: tune A4 to 440 Hz, then D3 a pure 12th below and from that point subdivide this 12th in smaller intervalls in order to tune the 19 notes that build up your 12th?

The problem here is that 19 is a prime number, it is not divisible, so you can't construct the 12th adding smaller similar intervalls, you can't subdivide the 12th in smaller similar intervalls.

You only can estimate expanded octaves,fiths, fourths, etc. to try to build up your pure 12th. And this estimations may be wrong and uneven, ruining the "expanded ET".

No, I was wondering, hearing Jurgen's words and Stopper's claims about Onlypure tuning, if there was a procedure to tune a circle of "tonic-fith-octave" notes in which you obtain the cancelation of beats. I guess that it is this cancellation of beats that can help to be sure you are on the right way when setting the 19 notes of the temperament 12th.

Hasn't Mr. Stopper published a book or article about the Onlypure method?
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#609550 - 01/14/09 10:37 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Gadzar Offline
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I read somewhere that Mr. Stopper's software takes iH into account(I think it was in this very thread).

In order to achieve pure 12ths, the software must tune the third partial of one note to the first partial of the second note, if not the 12th won't be pure. That is: if it tunes the fundamentals based on the 19th root of three then the 12th won't be pure, because the third partial of the low note will not coincide with the fundamental of the high note.
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#609551 - 01/14/09 10:51 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

I think that any method of tuning ET could be used. As the twelfths are tuned, it would be corrected and refined by using the usual chromatic tests.
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#609552 - 01/14/09 10:57 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Gadzar Offline
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Unright,

I believe this is a different temperament than meantone, well or ET in that it is not based on octaves but on 12ths, thus the methods used on those temperaments are no more valid. Stopper's tuning asks for different techniques to set up this "cancel of beats" effect in the tonic-fifth-octave. I think it goes beyond the "tuning pure 12ths" concept.
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#609553 - 01/14/09 11:46 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

I respect your prerogative to believe that this is something different.

I think this is only a stretched ET. By ET I mean that there is no difference in key color.

If D3-A3-A4 is an example of the “tonic-fifth-octave” that is being mentioned, then it is the same as the P5-P8 SBI test for a beatless 3:1 twelfth. It does not matter where the middle note is, within reason. The fifth and the octave will have the same beat rate. This may be why I like 4:2 octaves so much. The fourth beats the same as the fifth in the P4-P5 test.
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#609554 - 01/14/09 12:44 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Gadzar Offline
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Ok. This is a stretched ET, but the amount of stretching must be exactly established in order to accomplish the cancelling effect. You can have beatless 12ths without it being a 19th root of 3 temperament. It is more than a beatless 12th that is involved in it.

In ET you can have a circle of nice tempered 5ths without it being ET, for ET you must also have an even increasing rate of beats in major thirds, minor thirds, etc.

In Stopper's temperament it is not enough to have your octave stretched and an even run of raising thirds, fourths, etc. You must establish exactly the amount of stretch in all intervalls in order to get the pure 12ths and the cancelling beats effect.
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#609555 - 01/14/09 01:43 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

Thanks for continuing this. I am really enjoying it.

Because of inharmonicity, the 19th root of 3 will not produce beatless twelfths any more than the 12th root of 2 will produce beatless octaves. Only by tuning so that the partials match can an interval be beatless.

Any note can be tuned so that there is a beatless 12th above or below it. The other notes do not matter. And as long as the test note for the P5-P8 test is reasonable there will be equal beating within the “tonic-fifth-octave”. The P5 could even be wide with a narrow P8! To also have progressive beat rates, then the fundamental frequencies must also increase at steady rate, something a little greater than the 19th root of 3 due to inharmonicity.

The above paragraph could be reworded and still be valid when using the 12th root of 2 and any chosen octave type, or even the 7th root of 1.5 and the M6-M10 test for beatless fifths.
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#609556 - 01/14/09 11:48 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Gadzar Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by UnrightTooner:
Only by tuning so that the partials match can an interval be beatless.

Any note can be tuned so that there is a beatless 12th above or below it. The other notes do not matter. And as long as the test note for the P5-P8 test is reasonable there will be equal beating within the “tonic-fifth-octave”.[/b]
That's the point! I am not talking about a beatless interval nor equal beating intervals. I am talking about a beat in an interval that cancels a beat in another interval when sounded together. Furthermore this two beats have not the same rate. For example in A3-E4-A4 the 2:1 octave A3-A4 beats at +0.31 BPS, the 3:2 fifth A3-E4 beats at -0.47 BPS (minus sign for narrow interval, positive numbers for wide)and the fourth E4-A4 beats at +1.88 BPS.

The amazing is that when the three notes are sounded together you hear no beats, they cancell each other. That's unique to this tuning, no other temperament does that.

If you calculate de deviation in cents from ET you'll find that Onlypure tuning has an increasing deviation from 0 cents for A4 to -4.94 cents for A0 and to +4.01 cents for C8. As it is an expanded ET the amount of deviation in cents increases constantly as you get far from A4. In that aspect it is also unique! No other temperament or tuning system has this characteristique. In all octave based temperaments the deviation of a given note remains constant no matter what octave it is in. For example in Bill Bremmer's EBVT the notes C0, C1, C2, C3, C4, C5, C6, C7 and C8 all have the same amount of deviation of +3.8 cents from ET.

So when aurally tuning this temperament you can't simply use the same techniques or tests you use in ET. This temperament behaves differently.

You know I am an ETD oriented tuner. I am not able to program Onlypure tuning in my ETD, because I can not set the 12 figures it asks to set a temperament. In Onlypure system there are no 12 figures, there are 88 figures.

Even if I try to make measured tuning (interval tuning) with my ETD, I can't because I don't know how wide the interval must be and which partials are involved in.

The same thing happens when I try to tune it by ear, I don't know what to listen to! Except for the initial pure 12th D3-A4.

I hope you can understand what I am trying to explain, my bad english poses me strong limitations.
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#609557 - 01/15/09 08:27 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

I think your English is good, better than Jerry’s. How about an English as Second Language Story to lighten things up? On one particular ship I had a helmsman that was from Honduras. (All the Hondurans I’ve met were fine people.) Anyway, his English was adequate. One day a messman came up to the bridge to blab a while with the helmsman, but the helmsman did not say much. Later I asked him why. He said “Mate, I know just little English. (holding his fingers up about an inch apart) I do not want to waste it”

Did you actually hear the intervals that you mention and hear the resulting effect? Or are these beat rates what you calculated and are assuming that they will sound a certain way from what others have described? Also, I thought that we were talking about the P5-P8 intervals not the P5-P4 intervals. We seem to have been discussing different things. Glad you made this clear.

The idea of equal beating intervals “cancelling each other out” always bothered me. I know now that is not what you are talking about, but I thought I would mention it. Since the beats are in phase, they would reinforce each other, not cancel each other out. But since they are equal beating, the sound would be more pure because there would not be the sum and difference of the two beat rates confusing the sound. I suppose it is just semantics.

I don’t know much about ETDs so I can’t say whether my suggestions will work for tuning perfect twelfths. But if one of the “octave types” that can be selected is 3:1, then this should produce beatless twelfths. Or you could tune a beatless twelfth, measure the frequencies, do the math, tune the other notes and then tune beatless twelfths by measuring the third partial (direct comparison). Another possibility is to calculate the frequency for A3 so that the A3-A4 2:1 octave beats +0.31 bps, determine the octave type, enter this octave type into the ETD, and then tune the notes in this octave. Direct comparison can than be used for tuning the twelfths.

Looking at this mathematically I see it as a cut and dried interpolation / extrapolation problem.

The beat rate numbers that you gave brings up a problem. The numbers you give may be for a particular piano scale, or may be theoretical, but they could not possibly be for all piano scales. So, if these beat rates do produce a certain effect, it would not be for all piano scales due to differing iH.

You mention that beatless twelfths are unique: “As it is an expanded ET the amount of deviation in cents increases constantly as you get far from A4.” Any octave tuning scheme that accounts for iH will have this effect. This is shown with the Railsback Curve.

I guess you didn’t find any math errors in my earlier post. I used some “rules of thumb” and did it in my head.
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#609558 - 01/15/09 09:43 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
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Too bad the archives for the PTG lists have been lost by the new server. Stoppard did reply. He said it is not 19th root of 3. Very close. Fred Sturm from the U of T Austin covered that. I don't know enough of what he said to relay it here.
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#609559 - 01/15/09 09:54 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Thanks Keith. I will continue to refer to beatless twelfths and not "Stopper's" or "OnlyPure".
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#609560 - 01/15/09 12:32 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Gadzar Offline
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The beat rates I gave are theoretical values calculed from the 19th root of three.

You are right, this figures can not be used in an actual tuning because of iH.

The problem to tune direct intervals with an ETD is precisely the fact that those beat rates are theoretical. I can not get an accurate tuning if I tune a 2:1 A3-A4 beating at 0.31 BPS, because to take iH into account I must tweak this figure of 0.31 BPS to another value. Doing it aurally or mathematically leads to the same problem: what is the right figure for this particular piano?

In tuning ET the CM3 sequence is a way to tune accurate temperament without knowing the actual size of M3rds, what matters is the ratio on contiguous intervals.

There must be a similar way to tune a 19th root of 3 temperament 12th, in which it is possible to tune the piano to itself regardless of the theoretical or actual figures. Once you have tuned this 12th, you can tune the rest of the piano by tuning pure 12ths.
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#609561 - 01/15/09 01:06 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Supply Offline
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You can do all kinds of calculations and dispute this or that about uncertainty principles or whatever. But that is all theory and quite meaningless, really. I'm sure you could argue and theorize about the non-efficacy of the superstition surrounding sticking a needle into the hammer felt to improve piano tone. But the whole discussion doesn't mean much.

What matters is what it sounds like in REAL life. It is all about tone. The experience. I have experienced those things, and formulas or calculations or theories to the contrary cannot negate my experiences, which are shared by many, many others, distinguished technicians and players alike.
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#609562 - 01/15/09 01:09 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

I think tuning the A3-A4 as a wide 2:1 octave so that it beats once in every three seconds will be as close to ideal as can be tuned anyway. The iH is already incorporated into this interval. And until all twelve notes (or with beatless twelfths all nineteen notes) are tuned along with a number of octaves, can the progressive beating of all the intervals be tested which is the proof of ET. Any errors should be apparent as the twelfths are tuned and other intervals are checked.

Even with a perfect set of CM3s, there is guess work in getting the fourths and fifths correct. Why would tuning beatless twelfths aurally be any different?

If your ETD can give an accurate reading of the third partial of A440, divide it by 440 and find the 19th root of the result. By applying this to A440 you can calculate the frequencies to tune as long as there are no changes in the rate of change of iH in the scaling.
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#609563 - 01/15/09 01:16 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Jurgen:

Please don't think that I am trying to degrade the value of this tuning, which I admit I have not heard. I am only discussing how beatless twelfths may be tuned, which I also admit may not be the Stopper or the OnlyPure Tuning. No one else has offered to try, so I am.
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#609564 - 01/17/09 01:24 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Horwinkle Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Roy123:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Coolkid70:

I looked into it a little more, and it does indeed seem that the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle does have an effect on reading the vibrations of a string. The main result is that the longer you attempt to read the frequency, the easier it will be to determine.

An informal discussion can be found here: http://www.geocities.jp/imyfujita/wtcuncertain.html [/b]
Please, anyone, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the mathematical derivation that purports to show that the uncertainty principle applies to musical waves is utter hogwash.

The derivation starts with the formulas for the uncertainty principal and for energy, but on the 6th line of the math, the author introduces the energy of a photon, and uses that to derive the result. What does the energy of a photon have to do with measuring the vibration of a sting? Right--nothing. Plus, one can disprove his theory practically--one can measure the frequency of an electronic signal with extreme accuracy--accuracy that is far better than his supposed proof indicates.

Bah, humbug! [/b]
You're quite right. Quantum mechanics has no place at all in piano tuning.

There's no uncertainty about this. Indeed, there's much certainty ...

The goof who's perpetrating this crap CERTAINLY has no idea what he's talking about. \:\)

(My qualifications: BS degree in Physics and Mathematics)

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#609565 - 01/18/09 09:24 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Emmery Offline
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If you were using an optical device to measure the string frequency the photon might come into play. Is it possible this is the connection?
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#609566 - 01/18/09 10:05 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Roy123 Offline
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Posts: 1695
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Originally posted by Emmery:
If you were using an optical device to measure the string frequency the photon might come into play. Is it possible this is the connection? [/b]
No, because you'd be using an enormous number of photons to measure movement that's huge relative to quantum dimensions.

Quantum mechanics is fascinating and somewhat disturbing. I say disturbing because it describes how tiny particles behave in ways that defy any logic. Yet, the behavior described and predicted by quantum mechanics has been verified and measured to astonishing accuracy so we know that it is a successful theory. According to legend, even Einstein was upset with quantum mechanics, and said, "God doesn't play dice with the universe," or something like that. I don't know if he really said that, but it has been widely reported that he did.

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#609567 - 01/19/09 08:28 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Keith Roberts:
Too bad the archives for the PTG lists have been lost by the new server. Stoppard did reply. He said it is not 19th root of 3. Very close. Fred Sturm from the U of T Austin covered that. I don't know enough of what he said to relay it here. [/b]
Thanks, Keith:

I was able to get some posts from Fred Sturm on the subject by googleing “site:ptg.org stopper fred sturm” and then clicking on “Cached” for the desired link.

No, it would not be the 19th root of 3, but something a little larger for instruments with iH. And when tuning aurally, it probably won’t be beatless 3:1 12ths, but rather a blend of nearly beatless 3:1, 6:2, 9:3, etc 12ths.

I may try beatless twelfths on the High School’s Baldwin R. They recently bought a 7 ft Boston and I expect the R will need extra stretch to blend well. I know that they will be using them together.
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#609568 - 01/19/09 09:21 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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At the convention last year, I attended Bernhard's class and heard the piano tuned the way he does and it sounded remarkably clear. There was even an element of the "pipe organ effect" that I get with the way I tune. I asked the question, "Couldn't the same effect be had by simply tuning ET within a wider than usual octave, such as a 6:3 or perhaps even a bit wider, so that the 12ths outside the initial temperament octave would end up being beatless?"

The answer was "No!" The reason given was that the temperament was not based on equal divisions of the octave in 12 parts but equal divisions of the 12th into 19 parts. I'm sorry but I still don't get it. Wouldn't an initial octave made wide enough end up producing the very same thing? If not, why not? It seems to me that many technicians do that very thing, including very well know technicians such as Jim Coleman, Sr. RPT and Virgil Smith RPT.

There is no question that a wider or narrower octave makes ET sound differently and there can be a certain "magic" when a certain "sweet spot" is found.
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#609569 - 01/19/09 09:34 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
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Loc: Murphys, Ca
He must be using the 12th to determine stretch instead of the octave. Tune the 12th pure and make all the 5ths the same. Then the octave falls where it does. All the ETD has to do is listen for the 3rd partial and calculate the tuning.
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#609570 - 01/19/09 10:22 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Bill & Keith:

This is scary… We seem to be agreeing with each other!

If a particular octave type produces beatless twelfths in the mid section, and beatless twelfths are tuned outwardly from there, I don’t see how there could be a difference.

I think the practical way to aurally tune this is with a wide 2:1 octave that beats once in 3 seconds, set the temperament in whatever manner is customary, and when the beatless twelfths are tuned, make adjustments as needed to even out the progression of M6s and M10s (never just one or the other.)
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#609571 - 01/19/09 10:35 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
RoyP Offline
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Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
I have been experimenting with Tunelab so see if I can get something similar. There are 3:1 partial choices in both the bass and treble. So, take inharmonicity measurements, and go to the graphical tuning editor. Set both the bass and treble to 3:1, and use the auto adjust feature. This will get it close. Then, go to manual adjustment. My goal was to get the "octave style" adjustment as close to the center line as possible. I have been able to do so for most of the piano(below C6). The upper treble needs to be stretched sharp to make this work.

This should produce a pure 12th's tuning for most of the piano. I think that the upper octaves sound better stretched more anyways, so this works. On the pianos I have tried this, the bass has less stretch than I would normally do.

My impression is that even though the octaves are stretched, it makes the piano sound less noisy. I usually think of stretched tunings as sounding "livelier", but this does seem to hit a "sweet spot". It's interesting.

One of the things I really like about Tunelab is that it is flexible enough to try these sorts of things.
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#609572 - 01/19/09 10:41 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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RoyP:

Not sure what you mean by: “The upper treble needs to be stretched sharp to make this work.”

Do you mean that the features you are using will not result in 3:1 12ths above C6?
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#609573 - 01/19/09 01:27 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
RoyP Offline
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Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by UnrightTooner:
RoyP:
Do you mean that the features you are using will not result in 3:1 12ths above C6? [/b]
Right. In order to get the rest of the tuning to be pure 12ths, you have to adjust the upper part of the curve sharp of 3:1. I did aurally confirm what it was doing as I went. I worked.

I tuned a Steinway S this way on Friday, and had the customer call back to say how great it sounded, and that they wanted to be sure to get on my schedule for the next appointment. How's that for positive re-enforcement?
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#609574 - 01/19/09 09:30 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
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Loc: Murphys, Ca
I think Stoppard said there was a "comma" or a slight tweak from the pure. Could be the voodoo physics he uses.
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Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
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#609575 - 01/19/09 11:22 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
RoyP Offline
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Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Hi Keith:
I'm sure I'm not doing exactly the same thing. It's fun to try, and is just something I'm experimenting with to relieve boredom.
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#609576 - 01/20/09 07:25 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Posts: 4791
Loc: Bradford County, PA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Keith Roberts:
I think Stoppard said there was a "comma" or a slight tweak from the pure. Could be the voodoo physics he uses.
[/b]
One man's superstition is another man's religion.
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Jeff Deutschle
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#609577 - 01/20/09 09:28 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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I am sure that Bernhard is smiling at all the speculation about what only he really knows how to do. It seems a lot to me like what I do with the EBVT. No matter how much I try to describe it, very few if anyone really gets it. The correction figures only get you in the ballpark but not to the home run.
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Bill Bremmer RPT
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#609578 - 01/20/09 10:10 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Bill:

I am confused. You previously said:

“I'm sorry but I still don't get it. Wouldn't an initial octave made wide enough end up producing the very same thing? If not, why not? It seems to me that many technicians do that very thing, including very well know technicians such as Jim Coleman, Sr. RPT and Virgil Smith RPT.”

Now you say:

“I am sure that Bernhard is smiling at all the speculation about what only he really knows how to do.”

I don’t know if you think the Stopper tuning is really different, or just gets to the same place as others but in a different way.
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#609579 - 01/20/09 03:09 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jerry Viviano Offline
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Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 263
Loc: Cary, NC
I have contacted Bernhard Stopper. I asked if he could point me to a web page that would explain it all in terms that a technically-savvy tuner could understand, without going into quantum physics. He says that he is working on a publication to explain it all. He didn't say any more than that. I am hoping that it will be geared towards tuners.
Thank you,
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#609580 - 01/20/09 04:05 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Gadzar Offline
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Posts: 1432
Loc: Mexico City
I've contacted him also. He said me to buy his software and verify how wonderfull it is.
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Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

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#609581 - 01/21/09 08:12 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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I spent some time reading the cached pianotech archives.

There were posts from Mr. Stopper mentioning how the temperament is set by listening to the 12th along with other notes that are a 5th from one of the notes that make up the 12th. There are certain ratios that these notes are tuned to. I am guessing that this is the process of using “SuperSymmetry”. I am also guessing that for different scalings, that the 12th may not be a beatless 3:1 or 6:2 or whatever, but a compromise in order for these tuning ratios to work out as good as possible.

This seems very plausible to me, being a fourths and fifths tuner. I have never been completely satisfied with the idea of picking an octave width or type and going on from there, even though that is what I do. Wouldn’t there be a best octave width or type for a particular piano? Why not pick one so that the fourths, fifths, octaves and twelfths sound best? This may be what Stopper is doing. Whether tempering this way is also best to the extreme ends of the piano is another matter.
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#609582 - 01/21/09 08:52 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
RonTuner Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by UnrightTooner:
I have never been completely satisfied with the idea of picking an octave width or type and going on from there, even though that is what I do. Wouldn’t there be a best octave width or type for a particular piano? [/b]
Yes! ! !

I've been wondering how to interject this into the discussion. Not only a "best" octave width, but a "best" 12th. I'm only guessing, because I haven't had a chance to hear or analyze a Stopper tuned piano...

During the work I did years ago on alternate temperaments, there was a group of us communicating and creating, tweaking, spreadsheeting and learning. The graphs that most of us have seen focus on the widths in cents of the major thirds and other intervals. While helpful, these graphs just weren't showing what I was hearing. We went back to predicting beat rates... still wasn't what I was hearing. Not until we got to the point of realizing that in a chord there is a major third and a minor third stacked - and that the ratio between the beats in these two intervals might have more to do with the feeling of a tuning than the width of the octave.

We found that in equal temperament the ratio (m3/M3) is the only thing that stays constant. Robert Wendall (who has WAY more math ability than I) was able to construct a fairly strong temperament that had equal ratios. The people that played it thought it too bland or equal...

Which brings us to the subject at hand - I believe that while listening for the octave/doubles/triples/12ths... the individual partial matches (2:1/4:2/6:3..) aren't nearly as important as we may believe. It is the blend of all, and how the beat rates interact for the "syncronous" effect.

There's always been a bit of "voodoo" around Stopper's ideas - probably because he is trying to keep parts secret so that he can market it... I've only heard one report about someone that has used the software, and I haven't seen any evidence that it repeats what he does aurally. Until there is more solid information, we're all just guessing.

Ron Koval
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#609583 - 01/21/09 09:50 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Ron:

Thanks so much for joining in.

“We found that in equal temperament the ratio (m3/M3) is the only thing that stays constant.” I think this would be because the test for a 6:4 fifth is the m3-M3 test. I have been pooh-poohed here for using this as a test to set my fifths, and the M3-M6 test to set my fourths. On challenging pianos this results in a more even color across the break even though the M3s jump in beat rate.

This settles it. I’m going to make a 12th spanner and see what happens.
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#609584 - 01/21/09 10:48 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Loc: Madison, WI USA
Jeff, Ron said it better than I could have. Thanks, Ron. I explained to Gadzar in a private post that in usual ET, each octave size is actually different, not all exactly the same in any one part of the piano, even the temperament octave. Different, yes but very close to each other. I gave the example of a set of hammers or a loaf of Italian bread, take your pick.

Each hammer (or slice of bread) is a slightly different size. If you switched any two of them, you could tell the difference but if you went up or down several pieces and switched them, you could. Certainly, if you took one from the end and switched it from one in the middle, there would be a large difference.

So, when tuning ET aurally, the best way to get the temperament "equal" is to insure that the F3-F4 and A3-A4 octaves are *within* 0.5 cents of each other. (Sometimes, making them numerically exactly the same doesn't quite work but anything more than 0.5 cents doesn't work either).

When I tune the EBVT, I have some 5ths that are pure, some barely tempered and some tempered more than in ET. This causes me to tune a variety of differently sized octaves outside the temperament and up and down the piano. When I get to the point where I have a double octave, I compare it with the octave and 5th (12th) and make the two equal beating. However, in normal practice, I start favoring the 12th after about a half octave (going up) and then tune pure 12ths but at the very top, I expand both intervals.

So, I can well imagine that while Bernhard calls the idea pure 12ths, what he really does is tune the 12th pure in part of the piano, maybe a good part of it but at some point he goes beyond that. Perhaps in the middle on some pianos, those 12ths are somewhat but just very slightly contracted.

I talked to him personally about it but left with more questions than were answered. Steinway tuners in NYC for example are well known for stretching the temperament octave enough so that the 12ths are pure. "It is not the same thing" was the answer.
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#609585 - 01/21/09 11:10 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Bill:

Again the question arises: Is what Stopper is doing different in approach or different in result? If more than two notes are listened to when tuning, as he says they are when tuning aurally, then I would say both.

Not sure what Ron said better than you could have. Was it the word “Yes! ! !” ? ? ?
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#609586 - 01/21/09 12:00 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
RonTuner Offline
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Loc: Chicagoland
Here's my guess at what's different.

1. I don't remember how he sets the octave+5th temperament - do you remember reading about that? I've played with Tunelab enough to know it's pretty easy to set up a curve for one partial to end up with that width. The question then becomes which partial??? (It's a whole 'nuther discussion to notice the differences between smooth-curve tunings of different partials on the same piano.)

2. Once the "temperament" section is set, it should be pretty easy to expand the tuning outwards using the 12th spanner. The idea sounds similar to tuning a unison... You've got two tuned notes - the octave - add the untuned 12th, listening to all three together. Go slightly above, and slightly below to listen for the "best", or "least bad" spot and call it done.

While I find it hard to believe that the beats cancel out, I don't have any problem with the idea that there is a "best" spot that our ears find to place the 12th.

I seem to remember that part of Stoppers first writings had something about:

When tuning the octave and octave+fifth the goal is to find the placement where the sum of the beats of all matching partials is minimized.

So if I remeber correctly, he wasn't concerned with any particular partial match, rather ALL of the possible (audible) partial matches - and how they sound together.

Ron Koval
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#609587 - 01/21/09 12:31 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
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Loc: Bradford County, PA
Ron:

Here is A Link to a Cached Pianotech Archive.

These paragraphs lead me to believe that three notes are played together and the best blend, perhaps without the 12th being pure (note the tildas ~) is the goal:

Bernhard Stopper has recently discovered, that only in this tuning solution,
all beat ratios of octaves and fifths are symmetric to the interval ratios,
that means they have also ratios of 1/1, 3/1, ~2/1 and ~3/2 and multiples
of
them like the interval ratios.

Beside the mathematical mysteries, this fact is responsible for the
phenomene, that in every three-note interval combination consisting of an
octave and a fifth, the beats are phased out to a pure state in the
stopper-tuning (there are six such three-note combinations in a perfect
twelfth who have all a pure state in the Stopper Tuning).
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#609588 - 01/21/09 01:28 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bernhard Stopper Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 204
Loc: Germany
 Quote:
Originally posted by RonTuner:
Here's my guess at what's different.
.............

When tuning the octave and octave+fifth the goal is to find the placement where the sum of the beats of all matching partials is minimized.

So if I remeber correctly, he wasn't concerned with any particular partial match, rather ALL of the possible (audible) partial matches - and how they sound together.

Ron Koval [/b]
This is correct.

The "sweet spot" can be achieved when the duodecime tuning tool (as shown on a photograph on my homepage) is used, to tune the duodecime aurally pure. (I prefer the term duodecimo because many technicians still think a twelfth is an octave)

Here is the link to the duodecime tuning tool photograph:
http://www.piano-stopper.de/html/stopper-stimmung.html

This approach is slightly different from listening the 3rd partial of the lower note together with the first partial of the upper note, (what is probably in use by some tuners, like NY Steinway tuners, as Bill mentioned).

To listen to the 3/1 partials is like tuning a 2/1 octave. By using the duodecime tuning tool, one gets the "sweet spot" duodecime, which is slightly beyound the 3/1 duodecime.

As i published the method with the duodecimo tuning tool in euro-piano twenty years ago, it woud also not be surprinsing, if there are some tuners around using the duodecime tuning tool method already.

The goal is to keep the symmetry present in this temperament also under presence of nonlinearity, to produce the special acoustic effects. There is no voodo or quantum mechanic calculations in my software, (which deals the nonlinearity in the background). There is only heavy math. Although the discovered inherent symmetry sometimes appears to me like voodo, in fact it´s just beauty.

My statements about the uncertainity principle were contributed to the problem of real time frequency measurement in extreme accuracy. There is a limit of precision, the shorter the time interval is. We (as tuning professionals) do not have the time to measure about a second or two to evaluate the frequency to get it accurate enough, then turn the lever and measure again, that´s all about that.

As there are always experts around who do not hesitate to throw around with their titles, i want to provide another link about the matter from a scientific source, what simply figures out what uncertainity principle is (a principle, nothing else):

http://www.math.ntnu.no/~yura/Projects/uncert_project.pdf

I rarely jump into forum discussions, I apoligize for that.

Bernhard Stopper
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#609589 - 01/21/09 01:48 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4791
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Mr. Stopper:

Thank you for joining in.

When I started contributing to this topic, I was very careful to talk about beatless 12ths as separate thing from your tuning because I was not sure that they were the same thing. It appears that I was right; they are not the same thing.

I understand what you mean by a “sweet spot” and it should be easier to tune a twelfth this way than an octave because of the fewer coincident partials. But what about the other notes that must be tuned to form the temperament? From the Pianotech archive, I understand that octaves and fifths within the 12th are listened to, made beatless as possible, and the temperament proceeds around the circle of fifths. I imagine that on some pianos the twelfth’s “sweet spot” might need to be compromised for the other intervals to sound more pure.

I plan on making a twelfth “spanner” and giving this a try. I use the Braid White sequence and am very comfortable with it. Do you have any tips on setting the temperament with your method?
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#609590 - 01/23/09 07:12 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4791
Loc: Bradford County, PA
FWIW:

I made the tool and tuned my CW Console to beatless 12ths, but did not care for the sound. I did learn some things that will be useful, though. I’ll give details if anyone is interested.
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Jeff Deutschle
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#609591 - 01/23/09 08:54 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
RonTuner Offline
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Loc: Chicagoland
Hey Jeff - onward to experimentation!

Now take a step back - you tried what the Stopper tuning is NOT... We know for sure that he's been very clear that his tuning is not a beatless 12ths tuning - because he's said as much many times.

A little detective work:
(from the cache you linked)

"For inharmonicity related
instruments, pure means the state, where the sum of the beats is minimal."

"that in every three-note interval combination consisting of an
octave and a fifth, the beats are phased out to a pure state"

"pure 3-note
combinations of octaves an fifths, and there are four different combinations
of them, (an octave and a outer upper fifth, an octave and a outer lower
fifth, an octave and a inner upper fifth, and an octave and a inner lower
fifth)"

"It is not possible to reach this precision with the usual electronic tuning
devices or the usual two-note aural bearing plan techniques"


So where does that leave us? Usually confused...

Most of us in North America, with the aural tradition strongly influenced by the machines and the reliance on coincedent partials get caught up in the goal of beatless intervals. This detour of the tuning world has led to a much higher level of precision than was possible before, yet may lesson the accuracy of the goal of a musical result...

If I read/interpret the above properly, it seems to say that every octave-fifth (inside and outside) is tuned so that the sum of all of the sounding beats is minimized. Nothing there indicates that the goal is beatless 3:1 or 6:2 octaves...

That would mean that after setting A4, A3 and D3 are manipulated to find the minimal beating loctation when all three notes are played together. Then that D3-A4 temperament is divided into the 19 steps. After that, every note to be tuned is moved as part of an octave-fifth triad, as opposed to a two-note interval as we are used to using.

Make any sense?

Ron Koval
(tuning sleuth)
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#609592 - 01/23/09 09:30 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Loc: Bradford County, PA
Ron:

The example of A4, A3, D3 is perfect. What will result from tuning these so that they are as beatless as possible? A beatless 3:1 12th, a beatless 2:1 octave, and a beatless 3:2 fifth. Easy, but try to make an equal temperament out of it!

I understand that Mr. Stopper tunes the twelfth to be a compromise between 3:1 and 6:2. This is very, very close to being beatless 12ths unless this is not what Mr. Stopper actually does. I could hear enough difference between the 3:1 and 6:2 to make a compromise in the lower bass, but nowhere else. Elsewhere, tuning the 12ths was much like tuning a unison; there was only one place that was correct. It was very different than tuning an octave where there is a window that the octave can be in, and seem to be beatless.

Analyzing the 12th is interesting. If you take the two end notes and tune octaves within the 12th in order to have intervals for ET, this forms a P5 a P4 and another P5. The upper two intervals are a P4-P5 test for a 4:2 octave and the P4 must beat faster than the P5 for beatless 12ths. The bottom P5 must beat slower than the upper P5. The upper octave will beat the same speed as the lower P5 as this is the test for a 3:1 12th. And the upper octave will beat faster than the lower octave. The challenge is getting the P4 to the correct beat rate to create an ET.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
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#609593 - 01/23/09 11:50 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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"That would mean that after setting A4, A3 and D3 are manipulated to find the minimal beating location when all three notes are played together."

Ah ha! The "sweet spot"! When all of the slowly beating intervals, octaves, 4ths, 5ths *and* all of their multiples tend to cancel out each other's beating, you find a remarkable clarity across the whole piano.

When I do this withe the EBVT and play that long C Major arpeggio, the CE M3 is only half the speed that it is in ET and its M3 and M6 are also equal beating and thus cancel each other out. The arpeggio played and held has everything tempered but all you hear is a very slow wave that seems to pass up and down the whole piano. The strings from the lower and middle parts of the piano's higher partials match the fundamentals of the notes in the 7th octave and thus reinforce them and keep them ringing in sympathy. They sound like the tiny pipes that do not decay but keep playing constantly as the organist slowly lets up on the volume pedal until the whole chord fades out. It works on the the finest grand on down to Whitney spinets.

Bernhard's tuning, as I heard it at the convention in Anaheim, had much of that same effect except, of course that the C Major chord did not have the same M3-M6 tempering as the EVBT has. Yet, the manipulation of the octaves, 4ths and 5ths had much of the same canceling out effect.

In my view, he looks far beyond the narrow focus that most tuners have of tuning one interval at a time and trying to make each interval be the best it can be while ignoring what happens with the whole rest of the piano with respect to inharmonicity. This is where Brade-White and all of the other early tuning books fail us today. Even the PTG "Master Tuning" for the exam fails to do that (in a rather big way).

That is why I have always looked at that that theoretical way of tuning as just that, theoretical, not for public consumption and I never tune that way for any customer for any reason. There is always something better than that even though I acknowledge that most technicians believe it to be the end all, the "holy grail" of tuning.

Never be completely satisfied that what you have learned or been taught is the one and only correct way to do anything with the piano, tuning, regulation, hammer or part choice, you name it. Study all of the sources available to you and form your own set of experiences and conclusions. I know that is what Bernhard has done. I am SO looking forward to meeting him again and having a fine dinner with him in Grand Rapids. I am working on a way to have a piano tuned in the EBVT at the convention and will let everyone know when and where to find it when those plans are in place. Bernhard will likely do the same.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
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#609594 - 01/23/09 11:52 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Mexico City
Ron, I think you are 100% right about Stopper's temperament. It consists of tuning three notes chords and not two notes intervalls.

Once you have the first 3 notes D3-A3-A4, or what ever they are, the point is to subdivide the 12th into 19 equal steps by tuning three notes chords. How? I don't know.

(Maybe we'll need a third hand with a second tuning hammer in order to tune two notes at the same time. \:D . Plus, of course, the tool made by Unright to play the 12th intervall and the third note with the other hand.)

Unright:

I think you don't get the entire picture, you strive to tune beatless or whatever intervalls between a pair of notes. You talk about 3:1, 6:2 12ths, compromises between different coincident partials, 4:2 octaves, upper octaves beating faster than lower octaves, etc.

All that stuff is what all of us were, and are still, doing for decades.

I think Mr. Stopper goes a step forward. Listen to Stopper's words:

"It is not possible to reach this precision with the usual electronic tuning devices or the usual two-note aural bearing plan techniques"[/b]

underline:

"It is not possible to reach this ... ...with the usual... ...two-note aural bearing plan"[/b]

So it is not only a matter of tuning a given kind of intervall...
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

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http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#609595 - 01/23/09 01:06 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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If anyone wants to really understand what I am saying, try it for yourselves. Make a spanner. I used 1/2 inch dowels 10-3/8 inches apart glued into a piece of wood with some action cloth glued to the ends of the dowels. Then tune A3 and D3 to A4 until the sound is as beatless as possible. I expect you will have the same results as I did. The three notes played together will form just intervals with each other. What could be more beatless than that? Now try to make an ET from these 3 just intervals.
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Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#609596 - 01/23/09 02:49 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Mexico City
O.K. Unright, I'll try it. I guess the sequence is something like that:

Tune
A4 to fork as usual
D3 to A4 around pure, only an approximation
A3 to [D3/A4] adjust D3 to get to the sweet point

from here, all the notes are tuned as 3 notes chords striving for the sweet point.

D4 to [D3/A4]
G3 to [D3/D4]
G4 to [G3/D4]
C3 to [G3/G4]
C4 to [C3/G4]
F3 to [C3/C4]
F4 to [F3/C4]
A#3 to [F3/F4]
A#4 to [A#3/F4]
D#3 to [A#3/A#4]
D#4 to [D#3/A#4]
G#3 to [D#3/D#4]
G#4 to [G#3/D#4]
C#3 to [G#3/G#4]
C#4 to [C#3/G#4]
F#3 to [C#3/C#4]
F#4 to [F#3/C#4]
B3 to [F#3/F#4]
E4 to [A3/A4]
E3 to [A3/E4]

The rest of the piano can be tuned by 12ths with an embedded octave.

What tests to use?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#609597 - 01/23/09 05:00 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jim Moy Offline
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Registered: 05/06/07
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Loc: Fort Collins - Loveland, CO
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#609598 - 01/23/09 07:10 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3038
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I never understood why a spanner would be necessary when the Sostenuto pedal is already there for just such a purpose. If there is none or it doesn't work which may very often be the case, the damper pedal may also be used in the same way the Sostenuto pedal is used. That is; play the notes first, then press the pedal. There will, of course, be a little extraeneous noise but the beats you want to hear will still clearly be heard.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
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#609599 - 01/24/09 02:08 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Mexico City
Yes Bill, but then you have to use both hands to play the notes.

With the use of a spanner you can leave one hand on the tuning hammer while playing the notes with the other hand. It's easyer to tune that way.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#609600 - 01/24/09 09:13 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
RonTuner Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
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Loc: Chicagoland
Thanks Jim for the clip from the archives.

This:
3. F21 to D30 (sixth) with the same beatrate.This will result the 3. harmonic of this D30 to the same pitch as the A49 =440 Hz, the 12th is set now.

Seems to suggest that in 2004, Stopper WAS just setting a beatless 3:1 - as opposed to the onlypure definition of sum of the beats of 3 notes minimized...

Again, my perception is that the result is not that far from what a lot of us do with other methods. It IS however, often that last, tiny little bit that makes the difference between something good and something special. From Virgil Smith's "resonance" to Bill Bremmer's "pipe organ" to Bernard Stopper's "just beauty" - I think it is finding a way to make the whole piano work together the best way possible.

Ron Koval
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www.ronkoval.com
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#609601 - 01/24/09 09:58 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3038
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Gadzar, I have tuned double octaves and octave + 5ths for nearly 30 years using the Sostenuto pedal. I also tune double octaves + 5ths that way too in the high treble and low bass. I couldn't imagine using such a clumsy device nor would it fit in my tool bag!

Ron, your perception is correct!
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Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
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#609602 - 01/24/09 11:37 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bernhard Stopper Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 204
Loc: Germany
Ron and Bill:

The article Jim quoted here, dates back to january 2004 and is prior art of the OnlyPure method, which i introduced in mid 2004.

The aural OnlyPure method is a refinement (developped in 2004 after the discovery of the symmetry phenomene) of my initial work. In my initial publication of 1988 and my daily tuning work i described and used the duodecime spanner to set the temperament duodecime.

With the 3/1 partial matching technique i described in the pianotech article i contributed a less strange solution that does not require such a "clumsy" tool for pro-level techinicians.

It seemed to be a vaild approach to me at this time. (And it is still valid of course, as all other temperaments and solutions are valid also. But we are discussing refinements for a special possible acoustic effects duo to the symmetry here)

I had enough experiences from colleagues here in germany, laughing about the spanner tool. The refuse of Bill to use it tells clearly that the situation did not change principly.

Today i prefer to use my software to tune, as the aural OnlyPure methods still requires 2,5 hours of hard work, whereas i come to the same results in much less time (about 1,5 hours tuning the instruments 2 times for stability). And the aural OnlyPure method is LOUD due to the three notes used.

Best regards,

Bernhard Stopper
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Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
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#609603 - 01/24/09 05:53 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
RonTuner Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1581
Loc: Chicagoland
Yes, I thought the date on the post may mean something...

Thanks for responding, I still look forward to having a chance to play one of your tunings. You answered another question for me by indicating that you use the software to get the same results - that it just wasn't an aural speciality of yours - glad to hear that.

Ron Koval
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@ronkoval

my piano videos:
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#609604 - 01/24/09 10:05 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3038
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thank you also from me, Bernhard, for your response. Just as with me, my technique and understanding constantly evolves from year to year. I do not outright reject the use of the tool which is described but for me, personally, it would not be of much use. I apologize for calling it "clumsy". It would only be that for me.

I tune other intervals wider than the hand could possibly reach: double octaves, 12ths, double octaves + 5ths and triple octaves. I alternate between them. To me, it is not a problem to play the two notes being tuned, hold them with the Sostenuto pedal and then adjust the desired string while it sounds. If it needs to be struck again, I keep my foot on the pedal. If I want to listen to another interval, I quickly change to that. For my purposes, I simply do not need the tool but for those who find it useful, it does not deserve ridicule.
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Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
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#609605 - 01/25/09 06:02 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4791
Loc: Bradford County, PA
All:

I was busy yesterday with a relative's furnace. Much of the problem was "new wine in old bottles". Keith will know what I mean.

Gadzar:

I worked the other way around the circle of fifths and used the BW checks.... But after two hours I gave up on setting the temperament this way. I think much of the problem was tuning across the break. So I finally decided to just set an octave a bit wide, tune my temperament and then polish as I tuned the beatless 12ths. I noticed that tuning them with the spanner sets a very exact interval and that other tests will show the slightest departure from ET. This should work the other way also. I can check the beat rate of ordinary 12ths as octaves are tuned in my customary way to check my ET.

Jim:

Thanks so much for the archive. It was relieving to see confirmation of my earlier suggestions for tuning a P12th temperament.

Bernard:

I am so glad that you cleared up the confusion I had. Now I know that many of your posts in the pianotech archives were about tuning P12ths and that the OnlyPure method is something similar, but different. I look forward to the publication of the explanation you have planned for this year.

Ron:

I can’t agree more about “finding a way to make the whole piano work together the best way possible.” The P12 tuning did not seem to do this.
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Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#609606 - 01/25/09 10:51 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
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Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
And I thank you, B Stoppard. I started this thread as a pure technical learning experience. I wasn't trying to promote or steal. There has been some very valuable posts on the realities of piano tuning here. I am very happy you decided to contribute.
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Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#609607 - 01/25/09 11:26 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Gadzar Offline
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Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Mexico City
Stoppard? Isn't it Stopper?
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Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#609608 - 01/25/09 11:54 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jorge Maroto Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Bordeaux - France-
Hello and asorry for the late intromission.

According to Mr. Roberts (and as the Stopper's webpage also claims) PureOnly software does not need stretch measurements or presampling notes. You can just set the pitch and start tuning notes in any order. My question is: how a software, or any procedure, can deal with inharmonicity, intervals (three note chords!), canceling beats etc. if there is no presampling and if the tuning sequence does not matter?
I think I am missing something.

Thanks and regards,
Jorge

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#609609 - 01/25/09 12:06 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
RoyP Offline
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Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 783
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Thanks for everyone's responses. It's been fun.

I still have questions about the software. There are certain things about it that make alot of sense, as I said earlier.

Is it measuring multiple partials? In other words, is it more similar to Verituner or Cybertuner/Tunelab in this respect?

It works on an iPhone? My understanding from Robert Scott was that the sampling rate on an iPhone isn't fast enough to run his tuning software. Am I recalling this correctly? That's why he has Tunelab for Smartphones, but not the iPhone. What about the OnlyPure software is different? I don't have an iPhone, and would be running an iPaq. So, for me the point is mute, but I wonder about this. My daughter has an iPod Touch, and it's an impressive little machine. If OnlyPure in fact works well on one of these, it would be really tempting to get one.

What about pitch raise capability? Can it do overpull?

Is there a way to adjust the sensitivity of the display? Overall, I'm wondering how flexible of a tool this is. So far, it sounds to me like software that I might want to have for the occasional piano, but not for everyday use. I mean, when you run across that Kimball console that hasn't been tuned in 20 years, you're probably still going to want to use Tunelab, or Cybertuner, with their overpull feature. Not all, or even most, tuning situations involve conditions which are ideal. So often, we are making pianos sound less bad, not creating a work of tuning art. It's just the reality of real world piano tuning. We do our best with what we have to work with. But most pianos don't get tuned enough, let alone all the other work they need. So, unless this software can do more than is now apparent too me, it seems like more of a specialized application.

I will be visiting someone in a few weeks who has the OnlyPure software. So, I look forward to trying it out for myself.
_________________________
Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
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#609610 - 01/25/09 07:34 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
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Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Sorry my mistake. I was trying to get the first name right and messed up the last.

I have no idea how it works. I'm not into heavy math. I would think that it bases where it places the note on the partial structure of that wire.
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Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#609611 - 01/26/09 07:22 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4791
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I did not see anything on the website saying you can start tuning with any note. It does say that you select the base pitch and start tuning without measuring individual notes; it does the calculations in the background. If you start with A4 and tune chromatically, it could measure the iH as you go.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#609612 - 01/26/09 07:45 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jorge Maroto Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Bordeaux - France-
Yes. It was Mr. Roberts who explained in the first mail of the topic that "order of notes tuned made absolute no difference". I have supposed that he has tried the software.

Regards,

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#609613 - 01/26/09 09:01 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Keith Roberts Offline
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Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
It has no memory (storage). Why would it matter what note you play next? It doesn't retain the info from the previous note.

I think if you go to the CAUT Achives of Kent Swaffords post the I got the MP3 files from, you will find that is what is said. Use the link to Stoppers explanation to get to the CAUT archives.
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Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#609614 - 01/26/09 09:09 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
RonTuner Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1581
Loc: Chicagoland
No pitch raise, either.

The interesting thing to me, was when it was used to tuned two mis-matched pianos together for a recital. The results lead me to believe that there isn't any measuring of the piano inharmonicity going on. I even have a vague memory reading that the onlypure math matching trumps the inharmonicity differences of each piano.(?)

Ron Koval
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#609615 - 01/26/09 09:58 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Robert Scott Offline
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Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 268
Loc: Minnesota
 Quote:
Originally posted by RoyP:
...It works on an iPhone? My understanding from Robert Scott was that the sampling rate on an iPhone isn't fast enough to run his tuning software...
Yes, that was what Apple Support told me. However I have heard from several other developers, especially Faber Acoustical, who say they are sure the new 3G iPhones do support the higher sample rates. I am anxious to try this out for myself, but I won't be able to run code on a iPhone until Apple gets around to issuing me a developer's certificate, which can take months.
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Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
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#609616 - 01/27/09 12:06 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4791
Loc: Bradford County, PA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Keith Roberts:
It has no memory (storage). Why would it matter what note you play next? It doesn't retain the info from the previous note.

I think if you go to the CAUT Achives of Kent Swaffords post the I got the MP3 files from, you will find that is what is said. Use the link to Stoppers explanation to get to the CAUT archives. [/b]
Keith:

Maybe you could provide us with a link to support what you are saying.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#609617 - 01/27/09 02:43 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
RonTuner Offline
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Posts: 1581
Loc: Chicagoland
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#609618 - 01/28/09 08:34 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4791
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Ron:

Thanks for the links. I remember reading these posts before. I do not remember any posts from Mr. Stopper saying that the notes can be tuned in any order, but apparently it is included in the instruction for the tuning device. Until more is known, I am going to stand by a previous post of mine:

 Quote:
Originally posted by UnrightTooner:
RoyP:

I suspect, but do not know, that Stopper’s tuning device tunes to theoretical pitches based on the 19th root of 3 and does not measure inharmonicity.

This could be a melodic model of the human ear and the best compromise between pianos. In other words, this may be the pitches that people want to hear and also may be a great way to tune pianos with different scales so that they sound good together. [/b]
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#609619 - 01/28/09 09:00 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 204
Loc: Germany
Concerning the Tunic OnlyPure software i can confirm that:

- Notes can be tuned in any order.

- Nonlinearity is taken into consideration for every note.

Regards,

Bernhard Stopper
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#609620 - 01/28/09 09:34 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4791
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Mr. Stopper:

Thank you!

Can you explain more about the “Nonlinearity”? So many things are nonlinear. Do you mean the nonlinearity of the iH curve, which is ideally shown as a straight line (except in the lower bass) on log-log paper? If so, does your software measure the nonlinearity of iH for the specific piano being tuned?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#609621 - 01/28/09 11:46 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bernhard Stopper Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 204
Loc: Germany
Mr. Deutschle,

With nonlinearity i mean that the partials are not harmonic.

Regards,

Bernhard Stopper
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Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#609622 - 01/28/09 12:00 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4791
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Mr. Stopper:

Thanks again!

Does your software use the same nonlinearity regardless of the piano being tuned?
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#609623 - 01/28/09 12:11 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bernhard Stopper Offline
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No, nonlinearity is different at every note and on every instrument (even with the same manufacturer/model) and as i already mentioned, the software takes consideration of nonlinearity of every note of the instrument that is actually to be tuned.

Regards,

Bernhard Stopper
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#609624 - 01/28/09 12:23 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Mr. Stopper:

I appreciate your time and patience very much.

I think I may now understand. Is this correct?: Your software determines the nonlinearity of the note that is being tuned, calculates the correct pitch, and gives indication to tune the note being played to this calculated pitch, regardless of the nonlinearity of any other notes on the piano.
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#609625 - 01/28/09 03:30 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Bernhard Stopper Offline
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Mr. Deutschle,
I appreciate your acceptance that i provide a limited amount of details.

Regards,
Bernhard Stopper
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#609626 - 01/28/09 06:53 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jorge Maroto Offline
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Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Bordeaux - France-
I think the software must establish an initial equal partition based on a P12 fundamental frequency scale: (3 x fundamental of lower note) = (fundamental of higher note). The software cannot, in principle, calculate: (third partial of lower note) = (fundamental of higher note). Then, for each note, it must calculate an offset which depends only on the inharmonicity (what Mr. Stopper calls non linearity) of the individual note (and maybe on other spectrum characteristics but for that single note) .

Regards,

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#609627 - 01/28/09 07:08 PM Re: Stoppers temperament
Jorge Maroto Offline
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Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Bordeaux - France-
 Quote:
The software cannot, in principle, calculate: (third partial of lower note) = (fundamental of higher note)
This always implies an order in the tuning

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#609628 - 01/29/09 07:34 AM Re: Stoppers temperament
UnrightTooner Offline
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Mr. Stopper:

I respect your prerogative to disclose only what you wish, and am thankful for your willingness to disclose what you have.

Rather than ask another question, permit me to add a thought. Ron Koval was glad to hear that this tuning could be reproduced with an ETD “…..you use the software to get the same results - that it just wasn't an aural speciality of yours - glad to hear that.” Hopefully the reverse is also true, that the ETD tuning can be reproduced aurally. Wish I knew how.
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#1849993 - 02/23/12 04:42 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Tunewerk Offline
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I want to revive this thread out of dormant curiosity.

Does anyone have the material passed out - or detailed notes - from Mr. Stopper's lectures in Kansas City this past year?

It seems there was a lot of speculation around what he was doing, but no academic paper published.

Thank you!
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#1850018 - 02/23/12 07:13 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Tunewerk:

I have followed Mr. Stoppers posts on this and on the PTG list dating back many years. One reason it is difficult to understand just what he is doing is his desire for credit and for establishing precedent. (Heck, there are worst things to desire. I desire scrapple!)

Page 4 of this Topic is an example: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1722977/Beatrate_jumps_across_a_break.html
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#1850396 - 02/23/12 07:51 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: UnrightTooner]
Tunewerk Offline
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Right, I understand what you mean. But doesn't presenting the material ensure all the more, rights to the intellectual property? I'm genuinely interested in what seems like a contribution to the tuning community.

Dr. Sanderson presented much of his research findings to the Journal, much of which was the basis for developing his tuning machines.

Was there any material passed out in Kansas City? Surely someone has specifics.
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#1850581 - 02/24/12 06:53 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
UnrightTooner Offline
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I understand that material was handed out at KC. And I understand that Mr. Stopper has provided additional copies on a case by case basis. It would probably be best to contact him directly. It might also be best if you didn't mention that I sent you...
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#2065411 - 04/16/13 09:09 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Tunewerk]
Seeker Offline
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I'm a pianist, and I live in the Maryland suburbs of Washington, DC. I watched the video of Grigory Sokolov playing a (Hamburg?) D tuned by Herr Stopper, and found the sound very beautiful.

I usually tune my own piano, am interested in the OnlyPure software, but before I buy it, I'd like to hear what my piano would sound like tuned that way.

If you are, or know a tech, in my area who has and uses the OnlyPure system and would be interested in a tuning job, please send me a private message here on Piano World.

If you're interested, we could do a before | after recording. I use an old Sanderson machine to set the temperament and basic stretch, do unisons and "fine" adjustments by ear. Piano is a 1929 Steinert 6'10".

Good Day to All.
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#2065691 - 04/16/13 07:15 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
That Guy Offline
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Hi Andrew, I have the software but, alas, I'm in Lincoln, NE... My fee for mileage would be a killer wink

I can tell you that you will not be disappointed in the software. I hope you can find someone that has OnlyPure in your area.
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#2065841 - 04/17/13 03:17 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
Olek Online   content
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Quiet spectra, harmonic feeling as tending to do the splits under some circumstances (loss of focus)

But I have a special ear, probably.

(heard that on your samples, Scott)

I like it at the gutar, find it too "dry" at the piano.
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#2161390 - 10/03/13 08:03 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
Grandpianoman Offline
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Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2258
Loc: Portland, Oregon

Regarding the Stopper software, I have been doing a bit of experimenting with different temperaments/tunings for this short 4ft8in Weber Duo-Art Grand. It does not have the best tone to begin with, however, the Stopper software on my old HP PDA has the best sound for ET, so far. Very pleasing, especially with the bulk of pop music from the 1920's 30's, ET fits nicely with this genre. Classical sounds good to, but grandiose pieces just don't sound that good on such a short piano.

Here is a short video using just the mics from Canon vid cam. The tuning was about a day old. The piano has it's original 1930 soundboard and bridges, no work on the board other than some minor shimming years ago. The hammers are new, about a year old (Isaac Cadenza) The treble strings are at least 30 yeas old, bass strings, 12 years. (Isaac Profundo) The felt needs to be replaces...it's very stiff and is noisy. Given those variables the tone is not the best, however the sustain is quite remarkable, especially for such a short piano. I would like to replace all the strings and the felts in the future, and am also thinking about adding the Wapin modification, as it had such a positive effect on my M&H RBB.

http://youtu.be/_vdzE9EnKe0

All the recent Weber vids on there are with the Stopper software, the vid above being the one recorded soon after the tuning. The others are not as fresh. Also the piano was just moved here recently, and is not stable yet...change from Los Angeles all it's life, to wet Oregon...:)

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#2161399 - 10/03/13 08:36 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
Gary Fowler Offline
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Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 372
I have always tuned by ear(starting out with a fork). I learned Equal Temperment.(35 years ago). It's always done the job. From the cheapest Whitney Spinet to the Consert Steinway Grand, and I have NEVER, NOT ONCE been told my tuning sucked. I have thousands of repeat customers. But I tune my OWN piano, and I am my own worst critic, and I want to enjoy my own piano the way I want it to sound. I'm sticking to Equal Temperment. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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#2161413 - 10/03/13 09:00 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
Phil D Offline
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"I don't know what this thing is that you're talking about, but I'm sure about one thing: I don't like it, and my way is better"

yawn
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#2161476 - 10/03/13 11:16 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Phil D]
Tunewerk Offline
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Posts: 400
Loc: Boston, MA
Good to see you here again, Phil - I agree.

Glad to see this thread still alive too. I'm waiting for the paper published on the basis of the Stopper Temperament.
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#2161482 - 10/03/13 11:50 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
Gary Fowler Offline
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Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 372
As long as there are pianos that need tuning, and piano tuners who tune them(as well as wannabe tuners), there will be someone who comes along with some revolutionally temperment that will change the world as we know it. Good try
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#2161651 - 10/04/13 09:04 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
RonTuner Offline
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Uh, Gary? Stoppers "temperament" IS equal temperament, just with a particular approach to stretch. (I just want to let you know that this really isn't the right thread to continue your crusade...)

The software has a unique display and response time that allows for wicked-precision tuning. It might be the only software that allows for tuning unisons one string at a time to the machine and ending up with better unisons than by ear on troublesome strings. (I know there are techs who will dispute that, but probably never tried the software...)

Ron Koval
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#2161688 - 10/04/13 10:42 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
That Guy Offline
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Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 369
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Thanks for sharing Grandpianoman. Sounds great! As another Tunic user I agree that it is amazing software. I even use it on spinets all the time with great results.

Ron - Yes! Wicked-precision is right on.
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#2161710 - 10/04/13 11:37 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: RonTuner]
jim ialeggio Offline
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Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 531
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Stoppers "temperament" IS equal temperament, just with a particular approach to stretch.


GP,

Hi there...Ron's point regarding stretch is one you might consider. Many really good pianists relate primarily to the way the octaves and octave fifths,etc are stretched, and to the singing quality of the unisons, rather that to what temperament was used. To some degree they are inseparable, but in a another sense they may be separable.

As I see it, temperament, and I think this is what folks mostly refer to in temperament discussions here, is the interval relationships set up in the central octave or two. These relationships are stretched out over the octaves, and how this stretch is achieved can vastly alter the way one experiences the tuning as a whole. So, with any temperament the octave stretch is a defining part of the aural experience.

What Stopper's got here, similar to what Bill does with his beat cancelling effect, is a way to stretch the octaves which creates that beat cancelling effect. I mention this, because you may have a preference for the beat cancelling effect with the temperament coming in as secondary to the stretch experience...just a hunch but I figured I'd offer it as food for thought.

Jim Ialeggio
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#2161723 - 10/04/13 12:14 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
Mark Davis Offline
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Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 604
Loc: South Africa
Can someone direct me to a link where I can listen to a recording of Kent Swafford's tuning the Stopper temperament/tuning on a spinet and grand, please?


Edited by Mark Davis (10/04/13 12:17 PM)
Edit Reason: minor correction
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#2161734 - 10/04/13 12:53 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: jim ialeggio]
Tunewerk Offline
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Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 400
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
What Stopper's got here, similar to what Bill does with his beat cancelling effect, is a way to stretch the octaves which creates that beat cancelling effect. I mention this, because you may have a preference for the beat cancelling effect with the temperament coming in as secondary to the stretch experience...just a hunch but I figured I'd offer it as food for thought.


This is what interests me.

Lucas Mason wrote a book called 'The New Tuning' analyzing the beat cancelling effects in common chords. This tuning was equal temperament based on the perfect 5th, or the 7th root of (3/2). He showed many combinations of beat cancelling that occurred through this alignment.

Stopper claims to have a beat cancelling effect and I'm sure there is one.. but only because there is some kind of beat cancelling to be found in all tunings!

There are so many interference patterns in tuning, even assuming that all strings have a smooth inharmonic transition, that I want to know exactly what intervals have a beat cancelling effect in Stopper's tuning. I think that he has found and focused on a common important interval that shows beat cancelling in this mode of stretch.

It's the importance of this interval then, in its occurrence in music by statistical majority, that would give value to this tuning.

Does anyone have papers or notes on the Kansas City presentation that they can scan in and post?

Much appreciated..
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#2161746 - 10/04/13 01:27 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Tunewerk]
jim ialeggio Offline
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Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 531
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
It's the importance of this interval then, in its occurrence in music by statistical majority, that would give value to this tuning.

Not interval(2 notes) but triad. The beat cancelling, as in Bill's beat cancelling happens with 3 notes sounding. Not triad in root-3rd-5th sense, but three note grouping root-5th-octave, or root-4th-octave.

No papers to share other than the temperament sequence that could be used based on P12. He did talk about and show some sound files showing the phenomenon, but frankly, not possessing "math brain", merely being a "math brain" voyere, the explanation went over my head in the one class.

Jim Ialeggio
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#2161751 - 10/04/13 01:47 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: jim ialeggio]
Tunewerk Offline
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Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 400
Loc: Boston, MA
Hey, well that is something. Thanks, Jim, for sharing that.

I'd be really interested in getting those tuning instructions - or anything else related that you gained from the presentation - because I could infer some of the math from there.

I'd be glad to post explanations from looking at the 'source code'.

I actually meant triads as well - but the expanded triad makes sense in terms of the tuning. So he must be using slow beating intervals to counter one another in open voicing chords to make them sound pure, as they would be more so in a Pythagorean tuning.
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#2161889 - 10/04/13 07:26 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: That Guy]
Grandpianoman Offline
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Loc: Portland, Oregon
You're welcome Scott. I always like to share on PW when I find something that sounds good. smile

This beat-cancelling idea...that's probably why I like Bill's EBVT III, along with the large stretch on the M&H.

Ron, Jim, ...would you say the Stopper software has a moderate stretch? What is the general consensus for stretch regarding a small piano like this, 4ft8...should it have less or more stretch due to the inharmoniciy of the shorter stings? I am just going by what sounds good to my ear. The Stopper software sounds really good on this piano. I have had others that sound good, but this one hits me right.

Ron, you are right on the money regarding the Stopper unisons. Since I have learned how to tune unisons by ear, that is what I normally do, except around octave 7...the bass I can pretty much do easily now as well. That being said, this time with the video above, I let the Stopper do ALL the unisons! Except for a FEW notes where false beats were getting in the way, the unisons were great! It certainly works as advertised. smile Stoppers software is very easy to use, the yellow and green triangles work quickly and are quite steady when tuning. On just about every note, I can get a perfect, steady square box. There are some occasional notes that jump around a bit, very few. What I do then is to find one of the 3 strings or 2, that are steady, and tune the others by ear.

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#2161910 - 10/04/13 09:27 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
jim ialeggio Offline
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Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
... I am just going by what sounds good to my ear.

Going by what sounds good to your musicians ear is, in my opinion what this is all about, and it trumps all the numbers at least for me. If I were to try and figure out what my musician's ear wanted to hear numerically I'd be cooked...I'd over think the question and target the wrong choice every time. One of the things I really like about this approach from an aural standpoint is that it is about listening to the open unison tones as whole musical entities, rather than dissecting the tones for single partial matches. It makes the whole tuning exercise a meditation on the sensual experience of sound.

Having said that, through the treble, I have the machine on as I find the spot I'm looking for aurally. I use the machine both to check, teach and challenge my hearing. Wrapped strings are always all aural for me.

Sorry can't help with the numbers here. Some have said Stopper's stretch is moderate, but I've had the impression it was well stretched, especially on bright or tired instruments, as the stretch can seem a bit harsh. On a nice instrument, in good voice, the stretch is quite nice. I do, though, often prefer my own slightly reduced, "still" multi-octave, multi-octave/fifth stretch aka Bill. It seems just a tad warmer...maybe because my aural stretch is less perfect the Stoppers.

Jim Ialeggio
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#2161915 - 10/04/13 10:02 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
jim ialeggio Offline
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Ok Tunewerk...PM me your email address, and I'll send a JPG of a chart he handed out. I'd post it here, but posting images is a pain in the geshputz on forums.

No text, just a graphic...that's all he handed out.

Jim Ialeggio
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#2161916 - 10/04/13 10:06 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Mark Davis]
Cinnamonbear Offline
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Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3744
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Can someone direct me to a link where I can listen to a recording of Kent Swafford's tuning the Stopper temperament/tuning on a spinet and grand, please?


Hey, Mark--I was curious (because I like to listen to spinets so much...) so I did some searches and probably found what you did--nothing. Still, in searching, I ran into this:

http://www.piano-stopper.de/html/sound_examples.html

There is a Kent Swafford StopperStimmung Tuning (say *that* five times fast!) that is the Ravel selection of the list. (The other selections are good listening, as well!) (Sadly, no spinets. frown )

--Andy


Edited by Cinnamonbear (10/04/13 10:07 PM)
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#2161972 - 10/05/13 02:28 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
Mark Davis Offline
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Thank you very much for your help and time Andy!

Regards,
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#2161994 - 10/05/13 04:53 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: jim ialeggio]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6390
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Stoppers "temperament" IS equal temperament, just with a particular approach to stretch.


GP,

Hi there...Ron's point regarding stretch is one you might consider. Many really good pianists relate primarily to the way the octaves and octave fifths,etc are stretched, and to the singing quality of the unisons, rather that to what temperament was used. To some degree they are inseparable, but in a another sense they may be separable.

As I see it, temperament, and I think this is what folks mostly refer to in temperament discussions here, is the interval relationships set up in the central octave or two. These relationships are stretched out over the octaves, and how this stretch is achieved can vastly alter the way one experiences the tuning as a whole. So, with any temperament the octave stretch is a defining part of the aural experience.

What Stopper's got here, similar to what Bill does with his beat cancelling effect, is a way to stretch the octaves which creates that beat cancelling effect. I mention this, because you may have a preference for the beat cancelling effect with the temperament coming in as secondary to the stretch experience...just a hunch but I figured I'd offer it as food for thought.

Jim Ialeggio


Hello !

I agree with you with the "coldness impression"

http://www.instantencore.com/work/recordings.aspx?work=5011986

The beats are possibly cancelled for the 12ths but not at the octave and double , with that method.

The result is a "straightening" of the harmony and resonance that may sound calm and quiet but put high treble way too high and basses not warm.

I was even hearing the triple octave "making the split" - too large gap, in a recording from Scott Kern I listened to.

To me the stretch begin to be noticeable above a 3 octave span, and I do not find it very musical.

The 12/15 is more unsuspected.

There is also a theory that state that the acoustic equilibrium will tend to 12/15 naturally so a pure 12 cannot stay tuned for long ,and break in.

I listened to the ravel, and despite being typically the kind of music that would accept a tuning with enhanced partial matching, it sound hardened, to me, with high treble out of consonance.

The interest of those stretch method is to reinforce the soprano region making it more audible in the sound mass.

For basses can be forgotten, as for high treble.

Same opinion from some colleagues after listening.
We may not confuse please our ears during tuning, with the final musicality of the piano. What we may hear as enghanced and enjoyable may straighten the harmony too much and lower the possibilities for the pianist.

In the end what I suspect is that the too much matched partials create an immediateness of the tone stabilization that use some energy - I appreciate a lot the "answer" from the other notes when one is played (and this signs good consonance) but the immediateness easily create harshness and reduce dynamics.

5ths sound better when rounded , pianos tend yet naturally to enlarged 5th , our leeway there is not that large.

I also do not like those octaves.

The treble is not tuned as much on an even line that the theory would say, so for instance the c#3 6-7 sound better , less stretched probably - F# sound a little too high
E3-4 beating slowly

Thats all folks wink


Edited by Olek (10/05/13 07:08 AM)
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#2162004 - 10/05/13 06:13 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
Mark R. Online   content
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Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1870
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
I would encourage anyone who is seriously interested in the actual "mechanics" behind Bernhard Stopper's one-page handout to contact Mr Stopper. That's what I did, and I'm still discovering things as I try to put his responses to my questions into practice.

Inexperienced though I am, I really like the results I get with his method(ology).
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#2162010 - 10/05/13 06:47 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
Olek Online   content
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6390
Loc: France
" temperament, and I think this is what folks mostly refer to in temperament discussions here, is the interval relationships set up in the central octave or two. These relationships are stretched out over the octaves, and how this stretch is achieved can vastly alter the way one experiences the tuning as a whole. So, with any temperament the octave stretch is a defining part of the aural experience."

Jim I see it more as harmony spread, even if octaves are used for practical purpose and for stretch control, I would tend to focus on 5ths as an interval that is representative of the consonance, and a base for harmony.

Practically I refined my octave tuning to the point it is really precise, so the 3-10-17 are correct, and I use them for rough checking, but I will be sure to be good if the 5th are pleasing. (for high treble they have some leeway but too large is noticed)

It is "easy" to have nicely sounding arpeggios, but that does not mean the musicality is good.


Edited by Olek (10/05/13 06:58 AM)
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#2162013 - 10/05/13 06:51 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
rxd Offline
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Registered: 03/11/09
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Loc: London, England
Thanks for the examples.
In the first Bach by Mr Sokolov, our attention is drawn in the text to the last chord in which we are confidently assured that beat cancelling is taking place.
My question is, then why isn't it? Which of the other notes in that last chord is supposed to be performing the cancelling function?

The notion that we can stretch excessively because any excessive beat rate will be cancelled is extremely misleading, especially to electronic tuners. That particular beat rate is too fast for its location on that piano anyway because it is over stretched.

What bit of disguising there might be on that last chord is thanks to Mr. Sokolov.
A pianist can disguise beat rates by their voicing. That is, to a pianist, the relative dynamic of each constituent note in a chord.
In this case, even an amateur could do it, simply de-emphasise or even leave out the upper note in the left hand. This will cut the beat rate in half on a well tuned piano.

Please, somebody who is conversant with this temperament tell me which note of that last chord was supposed to have been performing the function of beat cancelling because for me, the elephant in this room ain't got no clothes.
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#2162023 - 10/05/13 07:39 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
Olek Online   content
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Loc: France
I sound uncomforteable generally speaking, (and the spread is not that large in Bach)

It is surprising that as experienced pianist as Mr Sokolov do accept that.

On the Thomas Quasthoff record the guitar have trouble to play in tune with the piano, and some chords that are supposed to be quiet and calm sound pinched.

But I understand trying new things , from pianists point of view as for tuners.

I was asked to tune differently yet, after laying a (nice !) Chas on a Yamaha U1. The tone enhancement was recognized, but the musicality was lowered on that particular piano (played by a pianist and a flutist) too fast beating was noticed.

That said, being aware of those balance (and not particularly for any beat canceling reason IMO) is a good tool and to me a sort of stretch upper limit.


Edited by Olek (10/05/13 07:59 AM)
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#2162031 - 10/05/13 08:24 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
Olek Online   content
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Registered: 03/14/08
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Loc: France
It is worth comparing
Gregory Sokolov playing the same first mvt :

http://youtu.be/8gbdV3t_nk4

STopper tuning :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BrcWplvGJY


Edited by Olek (10/05/13 08:25 AM)
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#2162209 - 10/05/13 04:39 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Mark R.]
Tunewerk Offline
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First, I'd like to thank Jim Ialeggio for sending me his original information from Kansas City. It's here now to openly enjoy and interpret, with my explanation below.

Second, Mark, it would be great if you would share what you have learned from Mr. Stopper himself and we can add to this discussion even further.

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
I would encourage anyone who is seriously interested in the actual "mechanics" behind Bernhard Stopper's one-page handout to contact Mr Stopper. That's what I did, and I'm still discovering things as I try to put his responses to my questions into practice.


I started looking at Stopper's work 5 years ago or so. I was working on tuning alignments in the 3:1 region and was doing some simulations when I ran across his website and all the work he has done since 1988.

At one point in time, he had a summary of the mathematics behind the exact alignment of his tuning. Now, all he has posted is this:

http://www.stopper-scale.com/1.html

Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
A pure twelfth (an interval with a range of an octave and a fifth, and a frequency ratio of 3/1) is divided into 19 equal steps. (nineteenth root of three) The scale results in a slightly stretched octave (+ 1,25 cent) slightly narrow fifths (-1,25 cent).


I thought this was interesting to post, because he literally says here that his stretch point bisects the difference between the 5th and the 8ve.

There are 1901.955c in a 12th: the same amount of extra width that's in a 5th (+1.955c). This means that in a pure duodecimal 8ve, there would be (+1.955c * 12/19) = +1.235c, and in its 5th, there would be (+1.955c * 7/19) = +0.720c. The width of a pure 5th is +1.955c, so (+1.955c - 0.720c) = 1.235c narrow. (Not quite 1.25, but not a big deal.)

So, according to his website:

Stopper's 8ve: 1.235c wide
Stopper's 5th: 1.235c narrow

We all know from translating cents to beats that they have funny, sometimes inverted relationships.

So, translating here (no iH):

Fifth from bottom note:
700.720c = 1200 log[2] (f2 / 1)
f2 (unit beat ratio) = 1.498930335
Example (A4): 1.498930335 * 440Hz = 659.529Hz

Beat rate: 660 - 659.529 = 0.471 BPS

Fourth from fifth:
500.514c = 1200 log[2] (f2 / 1)
f2 (unit beat ratio) = 1.335236224
Example (E5): 1.335236224 * 440Hz*3^(7/19) = 880.628Hz

Beat rate: 880.628 - 440Hz*3^(7/19)*(4/3) = 1.255 BPS

Fifth from fourth:
f2 (unit beat ratio) = 1.498930335
Example (A5): 1.498930335 * 440Hz*3^(12/19) = 1320Hz

Beat rate: 440Hz*3^(12/19)*(3/2) - 1320 = 0.942 BPS

Octave from bottom note:
1201.235c = 1200 log[2] (f2 / 1)
f2 (unit beat ratio) = 2.001427237
Example (A4): 2.001427237 * 440Hz = 880.628Hz

Beat rate: 880.628 - 880 = 0.628 BPS

Ratios of beat rates for 3 note combinations:

8ve : top 5th = 0.628/0.942 = 0.666 (2/3 or 3/2)
8ve : inner 5th = 0.628/0.471 = 1.333 (3/4 or 4/3)
8ve : inner 4th = 0.628/1.255 = 0.500 (1/2 or 2/1)
inner 5th : 4th = 0.471/1.255 = 0.375 (3/8 or 8/3)

Regular ET beat rates:

5th off A4 = 0.745 BPS
4th off 5th = 0.993 BPS
5th off 4th = 1.490 BPS
Perfect 12th = 1.490 BPS

5th : 4th = 0.745/0.993 = 0.750 (3/4 or 4/3)
5th : 12th = 0.745/1.490 = 0.500 (1/2 or 2/1)

Initially, it seems these ratios working out in the Stopper temperament are special, but you will find them everywhere in standard ET as well.

I think the key is not in the numbers of the ratios themselves, but in complementary equalizing (reducing one beat rate while raising another until a null effect is found). Perhaps the most appropriate beat rates to look at are those of the 5th and 8ve.

Stopper claims to be tuning to the 'sweet spot' of the 12th, in doing so, equalizing, or nullifying the beat rates of the 8ve and 5th. This seems to be a factor in the stretch, as well as the alignment of the 12th.

Edit: Earlier in this thread, Supply talks about hearing Stopper specifically play the tonic, 5th and 8ve together to elicit a beat cancelling effect. Without phase shift, I don't see how this is possible, but maybe some illusion of the 2:3:4:8 ratio that these beats occur at is responsible. Here are the functions that represent that interference with no phase shift.



My guess is that there is no 'perfect' beat rate cancellation point. I think that most likely, there is a range of effects dependent on the spectra of pianos involved, and I believe this is the difficult part of the equation that Stopper hasn't figured out how to codify or explain yet.

There may be empirical code in his OnlyPure system that knows how to achieve this effect in most pianos, based on information given, or maybe he input the balance mathematically and this allows it to come out how it will on various instruments.

Regardless, if Stopper is tuning to the 'sweet spot' of the 12th, rather than the theoretical 12th (above), then what he is doing is tuning a stretched 12th to the whole tone best point (in between a 3:1, 6:2, or 9:3), similar to how Virgil Smith would do. The result would be a slightly stretched version of the numbers above, but he claims to try and maintain the theoretical ratios.

Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted By: Ron Koval
So if I remember correctly, he wasn't concerned with any particular partial match, rather ALL of the possible (audible) partial matches - and how they sound together.

Ron Koval


This is correct.

The "sweet spot" can be achieved when the duodecime tuning tool (as shown on a photograph on my homepage) is used, to tune the duodecime aurally pure. (I prefer the term duodecimo because many technicians still think a twelfth is an octave).

This approach is slightly different from listening the 3rd partial of the lower note together with the first partial of the upper note, (what is probably in use by some tuners, like NY Steinway tuners, as Bill mentioned).

To listen to the 3/1 partials is like tuning a 2/1 octave. By using the duodecime tuning tool, one gets the "sweet spot" duodecime, which is slightly beyound the 3/1 duodecime.

The goal is to keep the symmetry present in this temperament also under presence of nonlinearity, to produce the special acoustic effects.


To recapitulate, also from this same thread:

Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
Today I prefer to use my software to tune, as the aural OnlyPure methods still requires 2,5 hours of hard work, whereas i come to the same results in much less time (about 1,5 hours tuning the instruments 2 times for stability). And the aural OnlyPure method is LOUD due to the three notes used.


To me, this confirms a whole tone tuning technique. Few technicians do it for a reason: it is intensive and time consuming. Especially so, in working with 3 notes at a time.

This I appreciated - and shows Bernhard knows that to program a great tuning machine, each note must be individually considered. The Sanderson and RCT machines, which use sample notes and put 'blanket' tunings on pianos, don't consider this:

Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
No, nonlinearity is different at every note and on every instrument (even with the same manufacturer/model) and as i already mentioned, the software takes consideration of nonlinearity of every note of the instrument that is actually to be tuned.


It may be that the only thing necessary to make OnlyPure a noticeably good tuning machine is a technique which employs this understanding, duodecimal stretch or not.

Here is the lone, mysterious handout from the Kansas City convention (Jim Ialeggio):



It's best to print out a version and turn it 90 deg. counterclockwise. This way, the notes are at the bottom: D to A. The bottom row is just a block representation of the black and white keys. Numbers 1-20 indicate the position in the tuning sequence.

He starts from A4 as the first note, then tunes the 12th down to D3 as the second note. In the 3rd block, if you look across, note A3 is tuned with respect to both A4 and the D3. The blocks remain black as he is indicating those notes be used as active reference notes. The black turns to grey as those notes are then tuned, but not immediately used as reference notes in the step indicated.

The 'Two-Sided Symmetric Form' title is kind of an artsy misnomer and only means he uses similar numbers of reference notes for each note tuned; then reverses the form to tune in the opposite direction midway (Step 12), to check the tuning as he finishes it. This is the aural sequence he chose out of all the possible sequences you could use to tune a 20 note section. Mystery solved.

Anyway, here's the whole translated tuning sequence:

1: A4 to 440Hz
2: D3 to A4 as a pure, whole tone 12th
3: A3 to D3 and A4, as reference notes
4: E4 to A3 and A4, as reference notes
5: E3 to A3 and E4, as reference notes
6: B3 to E3 and E4, as reference notes
7: F#4 to B3 and E3, as reference notes
8: F#3 to F#4 and B3, as reference notes
9: C#4 to F#3 and F#4, as reference notes
10: G#4 to F#3 and C#4, as reference notes
11: G#3 to G#4 and C#4, as reference notes

The second section he begins by starting at D4 (up a tritone from G#3), referencing A4 again and the already tuned 12th, D3, from the beginning:

12: D4 to A4 and D3, as reference notes
13: G3 to D3 and D4, as reference notes
14: G4 to G3 and D4, as reference notes
15: C4 to G3 and G4, as reference notes
16: F3 to C4 and G4, as reference notes
17: F4 to F3 and C4, as reference notes
18: A#3 to F3 and F4, as reference notes
19: D#3 to A#3 and F4, as reference notes
20: D#4 to D#3 and A#3, as reference notes

G#3 and G#4 then are check notes against D#3 and D#4 to see how the temperament turned out.

This is essentially a William Braide White sequence, using 3 note combinations and stopping midway at Step 11 - a tritone up from G#3 to D4 - to complete the sequence without enlarging comma errors. In the first section, he tunes 5ths up and 8ves down. In the second section, he tunes the circle the other way, 5ths down and 8ves up.

Al Sanderson had a more sophisticated way of limiting comma errors in a standard temperament with the stack of thirds being used in the Sanderson-Coleman temperament.

Finally, a link to the only other informational paper I have found on Bernhard's tuning method:

http://www.piano-stopper.de/dl/PTG2008_StopperTemperament.pdf


Edited by Tunewerk (10/06/13 12:22 PM)
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#2162279 - 10/05/13 08:34 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Tunewerk]
jim ialeggio Offline
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Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 531
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
I think the key is not in the numbers of the ratios, but in the complementary equalizing of them (reducing one beat rate while raising another until a null effect is found). Perhaps the most appropriate beat rates to look at are those of the 5th and 8ve.

This sounds very much like what Bill B has described with his tone cluster approach.

Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
There may be empirical code in his OnlyPure system that knows how to achieve this effect in most pianos, based on information given, or maybe he input the balance mathematically and this allows it to come out how it will on various instruments.

I suspect its mathematical, as the program does not seem to "measure" before thinking. Although. on the other hand, I do find, when using the program, that it will seem to "change its mind" sometimes. As I bring a note in aurally, sometimes if I look at the display it will be well off of target. Then as I bring note to the display's target, I hear it disagreeing aurally. Then I mess around with the note and find it both on target and agreeing aurally. Somewhat mystifying.

Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
To listen to the 3/1 partials is like tuning a 2/1 octave. By using the duodecime tuning tool, one gets the "sweet spot" duodecime, which is slightly beyound the 3/1 duodecime.
Meaning what? like the sweet spot of a unison where there is no beat...stillness...and the tone also blooms?

Jim Ialeggio
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advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
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#2162356 - 10/06/13 12:06 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: jim ialeggio]
Tunewerk Offline
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Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 400
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: Jim Ialeggio
I suspect its mathematical, as the program does not seem to "measure" before thinking. Although. on the other hand, I do find, when using the program, that it will seem to "change its mind" sometimes. As I bring a note in aurally, sometimes if I look at the display it will be well off of target. Then as I bring note to the display's target, I hear it disagreeing aurally. Then I mess around with the note and find it both on target and agreeing aurally. Somewhat mystifying.


That's interesting, Jim. I'd love to get into the code of that machine. The patents for all the other tuning machines are available and free to access online. Not this one.

Originally Posted By: Jim Ialeggio
Meaning what? like the sweet spot of a unison where there is no beat...stillness...and the tone also blooms?


My understanding of this is that when the amplitude and sustain duration of the interval is maximized, the highest alignment of all the beneficial partials concerned create this quality.

What I hear first is a stillness, then within that alignment, there is a fine point that really glows.

I assume Bernhard hears a similar thing.
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#2162384 - 10/06/13 02:51 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Tunewerk]
Olek Online   content
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6390
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
Originally Posted By: Jim Ialeggio
I suspect its mathematical, as the program does not seem to "measure" before thinking. Although. on the other hand, I do find, when using the program, that it will seem to "change its mind" sometimes. As I bring a note in aurally, sometimes if I look at the display it will be well off of target. Then as I bring note to the display's target, I hear it disagreeing aurally. Then I mess around with the note and find it both on target and agreeing aurally. Somewhat mystifying.


That's interesting, Jim. I'd love to get into the code of that machine. The patents for all the other tuning machines are available and free to access online. Not this one.

Originally Posted By: Jim Ialeggio
Meaning what? like the sweet spot of a unison where there is no beat...stillness...and the tone also blooms?


My understanding of this is that when the amplitude and sustain duration of the interval is maximized, the highest alignment of all the beneficial partials concerned create this quality.

What I hear first is a stillness, then within that alignment, there is a fine point that really ly glows.

I assume Bernhard hears a similar thing.



That mean the machine detect a peak of consonance, as for Chas tuning. Something aural tuners can hear, after some training.

What puzzle me is that it sound way larger than the 12-15 based Chas tuning, which is yet stretched enough.

May be, as the resonant spot is large, the way it is attained allows the tone to stabilize differently in both cases.

I would be ready to accept the Stopper tuning as nice and singing, if it where the case. But it sound forced and not very natural when the piano is played.

One more dead end. It have at last the advantage to have some tuners listening differently, if it is an advantage.

At that point I see enthusiastic tuners, but they may miss comparative points.

Beat canceling only quite the minor chord, at the expense of major ones. So the dose is not easy to decide.

About "resonant spot" they are audible since the 5th octave to the top at the unison, or individual note level.

within the octave, the 12th, the 15 , and even farther, and the eveness of tone coloration at the individual note level may signal an interval mistake 2 octaves away.
No necessity to play all the tones.
SO I understand a software can do it, probably.

The tuner can "temper" that and use an adequate equilibrium spot. For me it means that slow beating intervals must be retained as they warm the tone of the piano.



Edited by Olek (10/06/13 04:24 AM)
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#2162476 - 10/06/13 10:38 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
jim ialeggio Offline
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Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 531
Loc: shirley, MA
I had an interesting experience with this program and my ear while fine tuning a small Knabe grand I recently redesigned/remanufactured. All of my designs are high sustain...its what I and obviously my clients are wanting.

So...fine tuning the two octaves above the temperament...

When tuning the octaves, only a 2 note interval being played, the reference note and its single octave (rather than the beat cancelling triad)...clearest in the high 5th and 6th octaves where this piano has excellent bullet proof treble sustain with no impact noise...as I brought the octave interval into place, first it became still, then as I continued to seek the sweet spot, with unmistakable clarity, a musically audible, clear 2nd partial of the tuned note appeared. In consulting the Onlypure screen,I saw that the placement, approached not as a triad, but as an interval, absolutely zeroed the display.

This was tuning to a 3 string open reference note, and single string octave.

I thought, wow! I found something here, and it is so easy to hear, as it is a musically perceptible tone rather than an isolated partial. But taking this show on the road, to other pianos, I can't reproduce the effect. In writing this I'm wondering why. Is the impact noise, which is endemic in this "killer octave" area, to almost all pianos either masking or destroying this appearance of the octave's 2nd partial? Or is it the sustain level, which is also lacking in the vast vast majority of pianos? This appearance of the 2nd partial by the way, is a similar, if not the same effect Isaac has referred to in tuning unisons.

I don't know if the lack of impact noise or presence of the impact noise either enables or disables this alignment, and looking to understand what caused this phenomenon...obviously in a desire to reproduce it on other pianos other than my own.

The impact noise in the 5th 6th octave is quite obvious in Isaac's Sokolv youtube from the Menhuin festival, though not present at all in the Onlypure youtube. The treble in this area displayed by these two samples echo the experience I am relating here regarding the pianos I service and whole, where the impact noise is always a defining part of the sound and my own pianos where it is not. I find the tonal implications of this noise as well as the tuning implications of this noise, a defining aspect of the experience of listening to these particular clips.

Jim Ialeggio
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advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
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#2162499 - 10/06/13 11:23 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
Olek Online   content
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6390
Loc: France
I am not sure I understand you Jim, it is normal to hear partials lining.

What is "less" is to perceive them when tuning one note only.

As if the damped notes react (only if well tuned of course)

What I like is have them jump off the tone, that is where crispness is.
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#2162939 - 10/07/13 10:07 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: rxd]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4791
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: rxd
.....

The elephant in this room ain't got no clothes.


I have finally found something worthy to have tattooed on my person.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2162941 - 10/07/13 10:12 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Tunewerk]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4791
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
First, I'd like to thank Jim Ialeggio for sending me his original information from Kansas City. It's here now to openly enjoy and interpret, with my explanation below.

Second, Mark, it would be great if you would share what you have learned from Mr. Stopper himself and we can add to this discussion even further.

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
I would encourage anyone who is seriously interested in the actual "mechanics" behind Bernhard Stopper's one-page handout to contact Mr Stopper. That's what I did, and I'm still discovering things as I try to put his responses to my questions into practice.


I started looking at Stopper's work 5 years ago or so. I was working on tuning alignments in the 3:1 region and was doing some simulations when I ran across his website and all the work he has done since 1988.

At one point in time, he had a summary of the mathematics behind the exact alignment of his tuning. Now, all he has posted is this:

http://www.stopper-scale.com/1.html

Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
A pure twelfth (an interval with a range of an octave and a fifth, and a frequency ratio of 3/1) is divided into 19 equal steps. (nineteenth root of three) The scale results in a slightly stretched octave (+ 1,25 cent) slightly narrow fifths (-1,25 cent).


I thought this was interesting to post, because he literally says here that his stretch point bisects the difference between the 5th and the 8ve.

There are 1901.955c in a 12th: the same amount of extra width that's in a 5th (+1.955c). This means that in a pure duodecimal 8ve, there would be (+1.955c * 12/19) = +1.235c, and in its 5th, there would be (+1.955c * 7/19) = +0.720c. The width of a pure 5th is +1.955c, so (+1.955c - 0.720c) = 1.235c narrow. (Not quite 1.25, but not a big deal.)

So, according to his website:

Stopper's 8ve: 1.235c wide
Stopper's 5th: 1.235c narrow

We all know from translating cents to beats that they have funny, sometimes inverted relationships.

So, translating here (no iH):

.....


Sorry, when I read "So, translating here (no iH)":
I skipped to the next post. Been there done that. With no iH, we aren't talking about a piano.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2162952 - 10/07/13 10:40 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: UnrightTooner]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: rxd
.....

The elephant in this room ain't got no clothes.


I have finally found something worthy to have tattooed on my person.


You can thank Mick for that, it's his ...m....me....met..... analogy.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2162953 - 10/07/13 10:42 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: jim ialeggio]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 400
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: Jim Ialeggio
...as I brought the octave interval into place, first it became still, then as I continued to seek the sweet spot, with unmistakable clarity, a musically audible, clear 2nd partial of the tuned note appeared. In consulting the Onlypure screen, I saw that the placement, approached not as a triad, but as an interval, absolutely zeroed the display.


This is interesting, Jim. Are you talking about the 2nd partial of the top note? And how did you know you were hearing this?

So this would mean you began tuning a 4:2 octave in that upper region, without the need for other reference notes, and that OnlyPure agreed with that amount of stretch?

It seems to me you've created an instrument with remarkable sensitivity, so the spectrum it creates is different. Pianos without this design may not have a 2nd partial here with as much amplitude.

As you wrote this, I reflected on and aligned my own experience listening. When I do fine tunings, I do rely on a 2nd and 3rd partial in the 5th - 6th octave. What truly defines great pianos to me is where I begin to hear the 2nd and 3rd partials here. They are very delicate. Sometimes it lasts only 5/6 notes, but on a great piano it can last an octave and a half.


Edited by Tunewerk (10/07/13 11:10 AM)
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#2163026 - 10/07/13 01:45 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Tunewerk]
jim ialeggio Offline
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Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 531
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
This is interesting, Jim. Are you talking about the 2nd partial of the top note? And how did you know you were hearing this?

Yes the top note. However, the only thing I can really say about what I heard, is that I'm trying to understand what I heard. I thought it was the 2nd partial of the top note, but obviously, I need to hear it more often, and together with someone else with ears to understand and challenge what might be going on.

In playing with this over the weekend, not in the fray and time constraints of a site tuning, but quietly at home, I have the feeling that the sound I was hearing (which I think is the top note's 2nd partial, musically audible as opposed to audible only through beats) was the sound I heard way back, when I attempted, for ear training reasons, to tune a shop piano with no dampers. This is an impossible task if you try to listen to beating partials, but I was able to pull off some beautiful 8ve's by listing for something similar to what I'm relating here.

As well, if you read in the last PTG journal, the personal essay by Donna Byrd about how she got into tuning, and why she tunes, one of the the motivating experiences she has had is hearing something, I would say, similar to what I'm describing, on occasion, in a really fine tuning. She refers to it poetically as a descant.

Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
So this would mean you began tuning a 4:2 octave in that upper region, without the need for other reference notes, and that OnlyPure agreed with that amount of stretch?

This is tricky, because we are talking about a whole un-muted tone with many partials contributing to the sound. I find the 4:2, 6:3, etc, etc single partial beat comparisons to be a highly unmusical experience, and do not lead me to do my best tunings.

Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
It seems to me you've created an instrument with remarkable sensitivity, so the spectrum it creates is different. Pianos without this design may not have a 2nd partial here with as much amplitude.
As you wrote this, I reflected on and aligned my own experience listening. When I do fine tunings, I do rely on a 2nd and 3rd partial in the 5th - 6th octave. What truly defines great pianos to me is where I begin to hear the 2nd and 3rd partials here. They are very delicate. Sometimes it lasts only 5/6 notes, but on a great piano it can last an octave and a half.

Though opening up the dampers in a open string tuning might get you there as well. Definitely keep the two notes of the 8ve open with the sostenuto if you decide to mess with this.

Jim Ialeggio


Edited by jim ialeggio (10/07/13 04:54 PM)
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#2163054 - 10/07/13 03:14 PM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: jim ialeggio]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 400
Loc: Boston, MA
I was trying to quantify what you were saying here, but I see that you're tuning to the whole tone. You're wise to be careful about the language around it.

Your 2nd partial was then matched to maybe a group of partials, or in-between several, not necessarily the 4th from the octave below.

I too have experimented with this, and I know what you mean. The interesting thing, is this could be quantified if you were to set up the same situation again, with that experience and OnlyPure agreeing - and take an FFT of the frequencies within +/-10Hz of 1f, 2f and 3f of the top note frequency with the dampers open.

The noise could be seen along with the aligning energy in a very information rich format. I'd be very curious of the results.
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#2163258 - 10/08/13 02:35 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6390
Loc: France
I am puzzled with such expressions as whole tone.

Does it mean that some tuners do not judge the justness of the note listening in its totality ?

When w train to locate beats at a certain level, it is just for the theory, not really useful later.
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#2164687 - 10/11/13 01:58 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Keith Roberts]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1321
Loc: Conway, AR USA
.


Edited by bkw58 (10/11/13 09:02 AM)
Edit Reason: withdrawn
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#2186727 - 11/22/13 06:13 AM Re: Stoppers temperament [Re: Tunewerk]
Mark R. Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1870
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
Second, Mark, it would be great if you would share what you have learned from Mr. Stopper himself and we can add to this discussion even further.

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
I would encourage anyone who is seriously interested in the actual "mechanics" behind Bernhard Stopper's one-page handout to contact Mr Stopper. That's what I did, and I'm still discovering things as I try to put his responses to my questions into practice.


Tunewerk, I must apologise for having missed this post. I certainly didn't intend to ignore it. Only when I came back to this thread, to look for some other information, did I see this.

Your most recent contributions to this thread have really added more than I ever could. The only thing I could add, was that Mr Stopper advised me, when playing the triads, to approach the note (or interval(s)) from the over-tempered side, and stop as soon as the beat-cancelling effect sets in. And, like Mr Stopper added, this method requires an advanced hammer technique. I haven't achieved this yet...
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