Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician

the Forums & Piano World

This Search is powered by Google
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Grotrian Concert
for Pianoteq out now
Piano Buyer Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyers Guide
Who's Online
128 registered (ARpiano, Bobby Badd, Beakybird, 8opus, alphonsus, 28 invisible), 2224 Guests and 6 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#609835 - 11/12/08 08:13 PM ETD's and Temperament
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I remember over 20 years ago when we were learning to tune temperaments all we had as an external guide was the information we had in our heads and our teachers opinion and improvement suggestions about the final result. Tuning sessions began with us striking a 7 bps device and walking off to the tuning room with our tools and a tuning fork. Even though strobes were around then, they were frowned upon (for good reason), and I marveled at the notion one day in the future there will be something better.
This learning process is quite different from one that uses an ETD as you go along through a sequence for a temperament. Verification could be done note for note or as a completed temperament octave. I presume at some point or another student techs could justlay out a close rough temperament with an ETD and concentrate only on refining it. We didn't have this option back then. It took most of us a long time to learn how to roughly set it by ear and then a lifetime to keep refining it. Does skipping the process of rough setting the temperament for students using ETD's leave a gap in their overall results, or does it fast forward them to the spot we all end up anyways? What skills would be lost that would lessen the over all tunings result? Will people in the future look at a tech that does this the old fashioned way in the same way as you would look at someone adding numbers using a slide rule?
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#609836 - 11/13/08 12:58 AM Re: ETD's and Temperament
Erus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Mexico
I think this could be a matter of didactics.

You might not need to make anybody skip the rough temperament at all. When teaching something, you might just work on a few things at the same time, not trying to get any of them completely perfect, but use them to teach some important principles. After that, you might review some of these, or focus on one... And then you can repeat.

Teaching doesn't have to be linear, it can be iterative. There are usually many different ways to teach something, you don't need to teach things in the same order you learned them.

You don't have to skip the rough temperament, you just might introduce it in episodes or introduce it indirectly.

I think the tools you use while learning can affect the way you think about things.

We can make tools become an extension of our senses (I think that's actually what we should aim for).

I don't know if this makes any sense...

#609837 - 11/14/08 09:54 AM Re: ETD's and Temperament
UnrightTooner Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 5621
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I was looking at the Verituner Website. It has graphs of beat rates for how some ETDs tune particular pianos including a Hamilton Console.

Of course the purpose of the graphs was to show how the Verituner was better. On a larger piano the differences would be less.

So, if a tuner learns to tune smaller pianos from a particular ETD I would expect that they would tune like that particular ETD and not another. The ETD that was learned from may decide the tuning style, not the tuner.

Myself, I deliberately tune much like the SAT III on the graphs. I prefer a jump in the beat rate of the M3s so that the 4ths and 5ths are more even.

Your slide rule analogy is a good one, except multiplication and roots are usually used with a slide rule. By learning to use a slide rule and seeing the numbers on the scale in logarithmic spacing, the concepts might be more easily learned than from a calculator. I remember the excitement of getting a slide rule for Christmas. It was just what I wanted! (Honest)

With setting the temperament I think that the concepts of how the beat rates of the various intervals really affect each other may be learned better aurally, but I don't really know for sure. Actually, I am not sure that the concepts are generally understood at all, especially on smaller pianos.
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?


Moderator:  Piano World 
Pierce Piano Atlas

A. Geyer Pianos
A. Geyer Pianos
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.

Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Convolution reverb
by pinkfloydhomer
02/21/17 06:33 AM
Looking for a small MIDI controller to put on Kawai VPC1
by hag01
02/21/17 04:28 AM
Is Yamaha updating CLP series?
by mabraman
02/21/17 03:44 AM
Kids and all their activities
by Candywoman
02/21/17 12:57 AM
Bargaining tools when buying a new piano
by greg88rx
02/21/17 12:13 AM
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Forum Stats
86,738 Registered Members
44 Forums
178,626 Topics
2,600,455 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |

copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission