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#610464 - 10/01/08 03:03 AM If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: Belgium
On a grand, less than 2 years old, about 2/3th of the keys produce faint clicks/ticks when slowly depressing the keys just before let-off.
This is of course only audible during soft playing, slow movements, onset of chords, one hand exercises..

The problem was diagnoticized as noise coming from the drop screw/drop leather interface.
The most heard solution - lubricating with teflon powder - was applied two times: NO success.

If you look at the drop leathers they all look the same in structure and texture.

You may say 'live with it' but the other 1/3th of the keys are as silent as can be, so why could not all be like that?

Any comments, suggestions?

Thank you,

schwammerl.

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#610465 - 10/01/08 03:15 AM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21285
Loc: Oakland
A tick at the drop screw is most likely to be that the drop screw itself is loose, or some other screw. Tighten all the flange screws, both for the hammers and wippens. Check that the drop screws are tight. Also check that jacks are centered in their slots, and that let-off buttons and screws are tight.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#610466 - 10/01/08 03:26 AM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Can I do my lubricating joke again? Someone put sand in the captain's vaseline - "Ar, it be a rough passage t'night!" he exclaimed.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#610467 - 10/01/08 09:22 AM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: Belgium
Thank you BDB,

Unfortunately -as otherwise it would be an easy fix-all screws are tight.

schwammerl.

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#610468 - 10/01/08 09:44 AM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
What make piano? How old? I have seen a few newer high end pianos with Renner actions develop this problem. They were of the 2001- 2005 vintage. It is the the rep spring(only the wippens that have the butterfly style rep springs)causing the tick. As it starts to slide in the slot as the lever is compressed when depressing the key to the point of let-off, this tick will occur. Lubing the groove usually ends it, but on a few I've seen, no amount of lubing, cleaning or polishing springs and slots has helped.
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

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#610469 - 10/01/08 09:45 AM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
What make piano? How old? I have seen a few newer high end pianos with Renner actions develop this problem. They were of the 2001- 2005 vintage. It is the the rep spring(only the wippens that have the butterfly style rep springs)causing the tick. As it starts to slide in the slot as the lever is compressed when depressing the key to the point of let-off, this tick will occur. Lubing the groove usually ends it, but on a few I've seen, no amount of lubing, cleaning or polishing springs and slots has helped.
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

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#610470 - 10/01/08 11:04 AM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
If lubing the groove doesn't work, a post on the CAUT list said the coil of the spring can make a tick. Pull the spring out to the bass side. This should open the coil. Then spread the coil sideways to loosen the bind. If you adjust the springs pulling to the treble side, you bind the coil.
That's my guess
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#610471 - 10/01/08 11:18 AM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: Belgium
curry,

It's a 2007 Wendl & Lung 161 grand.
It has wippens with an auxilliary spring and a butterfly type wippen spring (not adjustable by a regulation screw).

see a picture in the link below (scroll down to the 10th picture):
http://homepage.mac.com/piano_tuner/Sell/PhotoAlbum204.html
This is not the action of my piano but from a 151; structure is however quite similar if not identic.
I suppose if it's the wippen spring it is not all that easy to lubricate the slot?

As a matter of fact I wouldn't be surprised if the wippen spring was involved. When e.g. you lift the hammer shanks off the wippen you hear some kind of 'spring noise'.

Also on SOME keys which produce that click when depressing the key immediately after the first stroke, the click disappears and comes back whenb you wait a few seconds before playing it again (but that is not the case on ALL keys involved).

schwammerl.

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#610472 - 10/01/08 11:27 AM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
The springs are the problem. Exact similar description of all I've encountered. It goes away after playing the note/ notes and comes back later. It's not difficult to lube the rep slots, but on some I've seen, the problem always comes back. What Keith suggests also works 80% of the time.
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

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#610473 - 10/01/08 11:55 AM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21285
Loc: Oakland
Check that the tail of the spring in the jack is not too long.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#610474 - 10/01/08 12:19 PM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
James Senior Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 342
Loc: England
Hey I know it's a bit of an aside,
but check out the damper levers (8th pic) - brass capstans underneath for easy setting up of the dampers relative to the rail, with spoons for adjustment to the keys.
I've played two W&L, and although the quality of finish was a bit disappointing, and despite really wanting to not like them, the action was tremendous. :-)
They've clearly put a lot of effort into the design.
Errr, except the springs apparently...

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#610475 - 10/01/08 01:37 PM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: Belgium
James,

Thank you for your comments.

I think however the damper levels are not involved as the clicks show up with the action slided out of the case.

schwammmerl.

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#610476 - 10/01/08 10:47 PM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Good one BDB. Some renner whips have had that problem.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#610477 - 10/02/08 01:18 AM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
Sam Casey Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1135
Loc: SW Missouri
Perhaps we mis-interpret "tick and click." Could be dry shank knuckles. Have you tefloned the knuckles? Or could be flanges. Did you CLP the action?

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#610478 - 10/02/08 05:30 AM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: Belgium
The "coil spring opening up" procedure as described by Keith worked fine on all but one keys!

One key needed extra cleaning and lubing of the slot and spring as curry suggested.

Many thanks to all contributors for their dedication.

schwammerl.

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#610479 - 10/03/08 01:37 AM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: Belgium
I was probably too optimistic.

The ticks disappeared indeed after aplying the above described procedure ..... but after the piano was one night asleep ...they came back.

It must be a structural charateristic of those action as it is now the second time this phenonemon showed up on two different instruments of the same brand/same model fairly new each time).

As the action is smooth now (also lubed the nuckles with teflon at the same time) I suppose the only way will be to live with it.

Thank you again.

schwammerl.

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#610480 - 10/03/08 08:35 AM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Sometimes, in older pianos, I realize this is a newer one, the grooves in the slots in the levers themselves where the spring goes can have a tick in it. That is to say, a slight "wear" spot. When the spring moves, it slides or jumps out of that spot which may be causing the ticking sounds. Could be a flaw right from the start too perhaps.

At any rate, wouldn't that be covered under the warranty anyway? You might have to replace the whippens otherwise, or jury rig something like a very thin piece of felt that could be slipped in there maybe? Try one and see if it works first.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#610481 - 10/03/08 08:55 AM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
I asked if lubing the coils worked and someone said lubing the coils with prolube worked on creaky wippen assist springs but they weren't sure if the fix was permanent.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#610482 - 10/03/08 10:29 AM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Schwammerl,

The ticking came back? I am wondering if the coil is slightly too big (too much space inside of the circle) and is moving from one side to the other as the tension changes, causing a click. Also what Jerry just stated, I have found this problem with a spring in contact directly with wood. There was a rubbing or clicking sound. Thin felt fixed the problem.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#610483 - 10/03/08 01:08 PM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1708
Loc: Massachusetts
I realize my comment doesn't shed any light on this situation, but isn't it almost beyond belief that in 2008 the piano community has to worry about clicks from springs sliding in wooden slots? ...and sometimes from "high-end pianos with Renner actions," no less! The guilty action manufacturers should hang their heads in shame. I bet this doesn't happen with Japanese actions, because the Japanese industrial practice of Kaizen catches and rectifies such things quickly

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#610484 - 10/03/08 02:05 PM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: Belgium
A tech in the Netherlands suggested another trick: simply polishing the spring loop with copper cleaner.

This was done and the ticks disapperaed again.
The springs indeed looked dull and correded, copper being quite corrosion sensitive.

I wonder what tomorrow will bring. Do not want to clean the spring lops every fortnight or so!

schwammerl.

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#610485 - 10/03/08 07:38 PM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
Peter Sumner- Piano Technician Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 852
Loc: San Francisco
I had this exact issue a couple of weeks ago...
After going through the usual diagnostics I finally noticed that the traveling papers under the hammer flange were too long and were being hit by the drop screw cushion at the top of the repetition travel....very annoying...but an easy fix...
would be worth checking...
_________________________
Peter Sumner
Concert Piano Technician



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#610486 - 10/03/08 09:58 PM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Let's see, the only lube i know of that is corrosion resistant is a "No-Ox" electrical connector grease. It doesn't travel, that would be bad for a conductive grease. It is made to stop the corrosion when using aluminum wires to copper stuff.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#610487 - 10/03/08 10:29 PM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
Dave Stahl Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 1645
 Quote:
Originally posted by Roy123:
I realize my comment doesn't shed any light on this situation, but isn't it almost beyond belief that in 2008 the piano community has to worry about clicks from springs sliding in wooden slots? ...and sometimes from "high-end pianos with Renner actions," no less! The guilty action manufacturers should hang their heads in shame. I bet this doesn't happen with Japanese actions, because the Japanese industrial practice of Kaizen catches and rectifies such things quickly [/b]
Roy,

I hate to burst your bubble...but I've had ticking happen in the Kawai millenium and abs actions. However, it's a straight forward fix: put some of that Protek greasy stuff on the end of the spring, and it's gone.

And I had this same problem on a good old wood wippened Yamaha G2 just yesterday.

I've had it it Seiler grands with Renner actions.

So there you go. Maybe nobody's immune from THE CLICK, except for that 1935 Brambach :p
_________________________
Promote Harmony in the Universe...Tune your piano!

Dave Stahl, RPT
Piano Technician's Guild
San Jose, CA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAniw3m7L2I
http://dstahlpiano.net

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#610488 - 10/04/08 05:56 PM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1708
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Stahl:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Roy123:
I realize my comment doesn't shed any light on this situation, but isn't it almost beyond belief that in 2008 the piano community has to worry about clicks from springs sliding in wooden slots? ...and sometimes from "high-end pianos with Renner actions," no less! The guilty action manufacturers should hang their heads in shame. I bet this doesn't happen with Japanese actions, because the Japanese industrial practice of Kaizen catches and rectifies such things quickly [/b]
Roy,

I hate to burst your bubble...but I've had ticking happen in the Kawai millenium and abs actions. However, it's a straight forward fix: put some of that Protek greasy stuff on the end of the spring, and it's gone.

And I had this same problem on a good old wood wippened Yamaha G2 just yesterday.

I've had it it Seiler grands with Renner actions.

So there you go. Maybe nobody's immune from THE CLICK, except for that 1935 Brambach :p [/b]
Well, it's still a crying shame, no matter which piano it occurs on. Surely, any competent mechanical engineer, or anyone with a smart way with mechanical things could think of a different way of applying the spring force that wouldn't be subject to clicks.

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#610489 - 10/04/08 07:03 PM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
All of the piano is a compromise. If you design it differently, you have a different problem that the design now doesn't have. In other words, you sacrifice speed or lightness or ease of adjustment or range of spring or cost or something we never even thought of, in order to solve a small maintenence issue.
It might be far more complicated than it appears.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#610490 - 10/06/08 01:05 PM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1708
Loc: Massachusetts
Not all design is a compromise. Often, it isn't so hard to improve one aspect of a design without adversely affecting other things. The only possible adverse affect I see in this case could be a miniscule increase in price, but given the fact that the use of modern materials in various parts of the action could substantively lower costs anyway, and the industry by and large avoids them, I'm not sure cost is so important.

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#610491 - 10/06/08 04:57 PM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: Belgium
Thank you all again.

A last follow-up.

Most of the keys concerned are now mere or less OK, except for one were the problem is persistant.

All the suggestions were tried out (lubing/cleaning the wippen springs, twisting the springs to uncoil them, teflon on drop srew pad) and all that was suggested needing a ckeck (e.g. too long traveling papers under nhammer flange, loose parts etc.) was checked; all negative.
What can also be ruled out is jack heel/let-off butom contact and free play between capstan screw and wippen heel.

A last observation. One can make the tick disappear by exercing mild pressure on the far end of the wippen (repetition lver screw) while operating that particular key?

schwammerl.

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#610492 - 10/06/08 07:59 PM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
So then the tick might be the spring moving against the repetition set screw.... as the spring tenses and releases....
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#610493 - 10/07/08 02:48 AM Re: If lubricating doensn't seem to help.
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: Belgium
Dan,

I don't follow you.

How could the butterfly spring touch the repetition lever screw as it is a few centimeters away from it and separated from it by the repetition lever flange?

schwammerl.

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