I don’t have an ETD; because I am getting older I have been thinking about one, to save some of my better tunings for back-up.
I found this topic on another message board. The thread never developed into anything much. So with the permission of the topic writer, I thought to post it here.

TOPIC TITLE………….tuning unisons….is the order important?


I'm not sure where I read this technique but I've been playing with it on the last couple of pianos that I've tuned and it seems interesting/promising.

The process outlined was one that used an electronic tuning device (ETD).

It involves tuning the right string of unison first, using the ETD. (Mute is placed between 1st and middle strings.)

Then the 1st string is tuned. (Mute placed between middle and 3rd strings.)

Next, aurally tune the middle string to the outside two which are ringing open. (I confess that as I'm getting used to this, I'm tuning the middle to the 1st string with the 3rd one muted - however, when I un mute the third, there's typically nothing to change!)

I guess the idea here is that as we tune from bass to treble, tuning the 3rd string first may settle the bridge to where it will end up and the first and middle strings won't have to be re-tweaked later. In fact, this is what the article heralded as the benefit of the technique; that you wouldn't have to re-tweak unisons as often.

One difference in this technique is that two strings of the unison are done with the meter and only one aurally. I confess that I'm programmed to get ready to aurally bring two strings together when I move to tune the left (second string of the unison) but that's a matter of entrenched patterns.

Has anyone used this approach?

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No. But it sounds interesting and easy to give it a try. It may be called: "RUT" (reverse unison tuning).

BTW, the title of this tread should be: Right, Left, Center. And not Left, Right, Center. The order can change the results.

I don't know if that tiny offset would have much effect on stability, it does make sense in theory. When I move past the center section in an upright I use paps mutes so I mute the center/right string first and never put the mute back into the unison after tuning the left string. Paps mutes are pretty rough on the strings and will often throw off what I just tuned slightly, especially if the strings are not spaced well. As much as I love my ETD I still don't trust it for unisons much. The visual input of that spinner is so strong it tends to interfere with my listening concentration and then I get a sound thats very close but your not as sure as you would be if you did it aurally by swinging through the proper pitch and actually hearing the best it can be. I'm hoping the ETD's will get better by the time I (maybe) will have some age related hearing problems.

Two other issues I look at is if the upper or lower pins are looser then the others as often happens on older pianos. Once I see the pattern I'll switch and tune these last out of the unison. On the other hand if the pins are not spaced well enough and strings are touching the sides of other pins or coils, I'll tune these strings last out of a unison. I always figured tuners mix up their muting order a bit from piano to piano just to break the monotony and experiment with what works fastest or the best for them.

ETD's are OK for setting a temperament and tuning octaves, but not unisions. For me, tuning two of the strings with an ETD will not be as good as unisions tuned aurally. I tune the center string with the ETD, then tune the right and left strings by ear. Sounds better-cleaner-to me. My opinion and what works for me-the other way might work better for other tuners. And as many others have said, check the ETD results carefully-they do not always give you the best tunings.

I have tried a similar technique with my ETD but I aurally tune unison strings. First I confess to using the same sequence as when I tune aurally unless its a pitch raise. I tune from B2 or C3 up to the top and then tune down from C3 to A0.

The variation I use occasionally is this:
1-Mute between center and right string. Tune left string.
2-Mute right string and next note. Tune center to left.
3-Mute between center and right of next note. Tune right string to center/left.

On days where my hearing is tired or the tinnitus is particularly strong I mute the left string to tune the center/right unison before moving to the next note. When I'm done with the note, I do a quick check of the p4, p5, p8 and move on.

I also just don't trust the machine unisons but most of my pianos are institutional and abused.

I think I might try your technique and see how I like it.

I guess I should state that most days I use two mutes and tune the center string first whether using an ETD or tuning aurally. Comfort in the most familiar pattern I guess.

Thanks Raphael for catching that, I corrected it yesterday. Thanks for all of the comments from everyone.

Interesting John, I tune aurally only, and I have always done the center string first all the way up to the top…. Center, right, then left.

Also I should add that the original posting is not my topic. I found this topic on another message board and moved it over here. It is from an article by a fellow called Jim Coleman, not sure who that is, but it really doesn’t matter.

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I have done the right, left, center routine often. It works. I only do it this way if I'm trying do a slow, careful, precise tuning. Basically, for concert work. I find it so takes more time to stop the display. The hand/eye coordination factor is always slower for me than just hearing it pull in.

FYI: Jim Coleman is considered an authority when it comes to tuning. Well respected.

I was brought up to tune aurally. During major pitch raises, I was taught to tune the middle string all the way and top tuning pin in bass down to single wires. Then, top tenor pin to top treble pin, lower bass pin all the way down to the bottom. Then, bottom tenor tuning pin all the way up to the top. I was told this was less stress on the harp over all and required less over pull thus, decreasing possibilities for string breakage. Plus, it is a LOT faster because most of it is done without mutes and sometimes, without felts as well.

While this works well, after working with EDT's, I'm not so sure that is the best method. It seems that beginning from the bottom up as the EDT tells us to do requires less of a pitch raise over pull, it settles the piano better, lands it closer and is more stable. While it is much slower tuning this way for me as you have a lot more of moving mutes around, I find that it does appear to hold better and make for a more stable over all tuning.

I do prefer however, (when using and EDT) tuning the center string first then, right, then left as I move the mutes over going up. That way, it shuts off one unison leaving only two strings to listen too at once. It is especially nice for concert tunings.

I've experimented with a few ways. Left center right. Right, center, left. Center, right left. Center, left right. The over all results are all very similiar but, it seems that going right, center left or left center right, creates less changes over all depending on the quality of the piano. If it's a crap piano then, whatever! Just get r done.

Dan, I have often used the method you describe except that I always tuned the left string first, then the right, both to the ETD pattern, then tuned the middle string aurally. I'm not sure if there is any merit to tuning the right string first or not but it is an interesting theory. I will do that the next time I use the meathod to see if I solve a unison problem faster that way.

I learned the idea from a fellow PTG RPT who occasionally posts to this list. I use it only when the unison poses some difficulty, such as some kind of false beat, unsteady pitch or difficult stability.

It is well known that when one or more strings of a unison has a wavering pitch, the unison can still be made to sound virtually pure when beats between the strings cancel each other out. An equal and opposing beat will cause a canceling out effect. (That is the very premise of my Equal Beating Victorian Temperament where equal beating intervals in the temperament cause triads to sound much purer than they really are).

That technique works very well for me. If on the first attempt, I cannot get the whole unison to steady the pattern, I may start with the right string as you suggested. Often, both the problem of "pounding the unison flat" *and* the fact that the whole unison sinks slightly lower in pitch than any single string applies, (as I mentioned recently on another thread).

As I understand it, getting both the right and left string to hold steady to the pattern (or often, just slightly above it, such as from 0.1 to 0.5 cents sharper), then "sandwiching" in the middle string provides for the cleanest sounding unison.

In this instance, if one were to then measure the pitch of each string individually on a unison that aurally sounds the purest, cleanest and beatless possible, one may well find that each string has a slightly different pitch. They still would all likely fall within 0.9 cents of each other which would conform to PTG Tuning Exam standards for unisons.

Doing this aurally would certainly be more difficult and painstaking. You would have to tune both right and left strings aurally to whichever interval tests you use and then tune the middle string to the outside strings. When you've got a false beat or a stability problem, this can mean spending 5 minutes alone on a problem unison.

I've often seen it written or heard it said that the ETD is not good for unison tuning but the above description is an example of where the ETD really does help to maintain the exactly desired pitch *and* provide for the purest sounding unison possible.

I have recently practiced a technique taught by David Anderson called "open string tuning"
It does not require strip mute and only two rubber mutes. First the right string is tuned, then center to right, then left to both center and right. This is done for his temperament sequence and octaves.
He says it is much more stable - I tend to believe him. As I progress through the temperament I rarely need to return to a note and tweek it.
One thing for certain is that it really helps the listening skills.
I regularly use the technique of setting the center string to the open right and left strings but I only do this when I have a unison that will not cooperate and this is the way that I make the compormise, sometimes it will vary depending on what two strings sound best together of the three.
Whenever I use ETD for pitch raise I always start at the lowest tenor plain steel trichord, go to the top and ear tune the bass. The wound strings rarely need the 25% overpull designed into the SAT and I am a bit gunshy about breaking one of them.

I tried an open-string variant of that for awhile, just like you describe except using two mutes and center string first. It does really get you involved deeply in the tuning, and I do like the results. I even went so far as to tune every piano that way, including spinets.

Currently I stripmute verticals all the way up. I do the midsection then the treble, then treble unisons. Then I do the bass, followed by bass and midrange unisons.

On grands I sort of compromise. I stripmute the bass and mid, because it often is more expedient with temperament area tests, or if I have to change a note while tuning that area. But when I cross the break into the treble I just use a couple of mutes, on the note I'm tuning, tuning unisons as I go.

As an aside: I sometimes call this the "Franz Mohr Method," since that's how he described what he does in a class I attended -- stripmutes the bass and mid, mutes in the treble.

On some grands I may also mute the note an octave below the note I'm tuning, as I go up in the treble.

I've considered how the Virgil Smith effect comes into play with this method, and don't think it's a detriment.

Those are my current sequences for aural tuning, obviously when the stripmuted section is ready for a fine tuning. I may go back to just a couple of mutes someday, at least on really nice grands. There's definitely an appeal there.

I recently took a class with David Anderson and he had time, between questions and explanations, to tune the temperament and bass -- not the treble. He does have an interesting approach to things -- like with the tests he uses and doesn't use; but I really wish I could've heard the way it sounded through the whole piano.

Jeff

I have not experienced the slight drop in pitch that others describe happens to the first string when the other strings of a unison are tuned. It probably does happen, I just haven’t experienced it.

If this does happen, it is a strong argument for tuning an octave to only one string, not to a unison, so that when the unisons are tuned, everything drops the same ½ cent or so, and the octaves preserve their relationship.

For mutes I like the half size rubber mutes for the dampered treble and dislike muting a string that has already been tuned. Sometimes it is necessary, especially in the treble, where it seems that the left strings have more false beats than the others. Then it seems best to tune right to left, and also to mute the two left strings an octave below, again to reduce the false beats. It is very rare for me to tune a piano without false beats being a big issue.

Jeff:

I have heard of strip muting verticals through the entire treble. Do you remove the action to do so? Even on spinets?

I have problems strip muting through the treblr damper section of an upright. Some of those damper felts can get messed up.

I was there for the class; Virgil tunes and Dr Sanderson measures to verify the drop in pitch.

I was late so I got a front row seat which happened to be right next to Dr Sanderson. Virgil tuned and demonstrated the drop in pitch, which you hear aurally. Dr Sanderson was following everything on the SAT. (i wish I wasn't such a newbie at the time)
The Big Test!!! Dr Sanderson got up and measured and Virgil pulled the mute.... no change. The SAT can measure 1/1000 of a note.... Wait!! Dr Sanderson is changing the settings, 2nd partial, no change, 3rd partial, NO, 4th partial.. YES!!! The drop in pitch was at one of the partials. If my memory serves me well it was the 4th. That explains why you can hear it with your checks and that is what the ETD is programed to listen to when you are tuning.
Virgil said this effect happened from the 1st plain wire unison to the tenor break. This makes sense because the treble strings do not produce loud upper partials.

Keith:

Thanks for the eyewitness account!

But if the 4th partial changed and not the fundamental, then did the pitch change, or the inharmonicity?

This is all very interesting reading for me thanks for all of the input. I used to strip mute up to the last plate bar in grand’s and previously used to insert two strips in the uprights, but like Keith states sometimes with the instruments that have more than 65 dampers you can damage some of the felt work . And the small uprights it is difficult to do them with strip muting.

Now when I do grand’s I use two mutes and do the center string all the way up to the last plate bar, then go past the plate bar and tune the top (octave and a half is it?) doing center, right, left. Then from the last plate bar tune back down to the middle section tuning the outside strings left first, then right. Pull the strip mute and do the temp octave, same way left, then right, to the center. For the bass I just tune right string first and then left string, not much going on there anyways just a lot of noise really…. Never going to be pure……. You know what I mean there is so many interesting sounds that come from a wound bass string anyways…..

You know Unright I always tune my octaves one string of a unison….. is this no good? I mean when I am travelling up the scale, treble side, it is one string each of an octave right?( Maybe I am not understanding what you typed there…… too many lacquer fumes……)

There seems to be an overall consensus here that most do not have total reliance on the ETD for unisons, and check the unisons aurally. Bill, Gene and Jeff, have brought up some other points I have been pondering…..I am going to start a new thread about some of those things…

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Hi Jeff. No, another tech gave me a couple of curved plastic trim guards, the kind used for painting, and these work extremely well for holding back the treble dampers, without harm, while pushing the felt strip below them. The dampers still work fine, with the strip in place.

I'm messing with the dampers much less than some years back, when I'd move four single rubber mutes up and down through that section to tune octaves.

I'm really glad this other tech made a gift of these particular trim guards to me, because I've never seen any quite so appropriate for this purpose. I first push the damper pedal down, then one trim guard cups the dampers perfectly while the other slides the strip down. I made a couple of little tools I use to first insert the strip between the strings, before sliding it down, that I like better than the screwdriver a lot of people use.

I use a single mute while tuning a vertical piano's tenor and treble unisons, and sometimes I too like a half-width mute.

If I weren't a footdragger on things like digital photography, I'd upload some pictures of the trim guards and the little tools I made to insert the strips.

Jeff

Jeff:

Thanks! I wondered how it was done. So I take it that when it is time to tune the unisons, you remove the entire strip and then use single mutes? When I have trouble getting the strip in with my sausage fingers I use the handle of a mute.

Dan:

I’m not sure what you mean either.

I learned to strip mute the tenor, tune the F3-F4 temperament, then tune the octaves going up. When starting the treble section the unisons are also tuned left-center-right except C-88 which is right-center-left. Then tune octaves going down starting with E-3. When the bass bichords are tuned the mute silences the left string of an upper note and the right string of the lower note. The two notes are tuned, the mute is moved four strings down, and the two unisons are tuned. This continues until the monochords are reached. The final step is to tune the tenor section unisons from the bottom up by pulling the temperament strip out one fold at a time and tuning two strings each time.

I’ve tried different things but always seem to go back to this. One thing I like about it is that the treble unisons have to be pretty good and pretty stable to tune the octaves to them. This keeps me honest. Also, if the piano was low in pitch and the high treble caused the mid treble to drop some in relation to the tenor, when the tenor unisons are tuned last, this will usually lower the tenor pitch and even things up with the mid treble.

There are some posters that mention tuning octaves to the three strings of a unison by only using one mute, as the procedure I learned by does in the treble. When false beats are a big problem in the treble then I like tuning the octaves to just one string.

Jeff, I always mute the entire piano, including the treble. You are right about tuning a treble string to a single string in the midrange, not a whole unison. I remove the strip one note at a time, just as I do in the midrange. There are only a few pianos, 80's vintage Yamaha and Kawai mostly, whose damper felt is fragile. All others present no problem.

Unright said:

I do it differently than many. It's common to do the center strings then pull the strip out one note at a time, tuning one side string to the center then the other side string to both, using no other mutes.

I've not so far taken to the idea, particularly on a lot of the verticals I tune, of tuning the third string of a unison to the two already tuned, with no mute. I use a different strip for each section of the piano, pull each out all at once, then follow along with a single mute to tune unisons.

Something I experimented with for awhile on verticals was to tune treble center strings up to C7, then pull out my treble strip and tune the treble unisons up that far. Then I'd tune each note of the 7th octave, unisons as I went. Sometimes I liked the way the seventh octave came out when tuning to a more full sound from the notes below. I still had the tenor section strip in place. Kind of a goofy thing to get into, I suppose.

Like you, Jeff, I used the handle of a mute for a long time to insert the strip. A few years ago I fashioned a thinner tool out of a fingernail file.

Jeff S.