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#613070 - 10/05/02 07:22 AM Jorgensen EBVT Analysis now on Website
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3572
Loc: Madison, WI USA
To all interested,

Recently, I asked Professor Owen Jorgensen RPT to analyze and confirm the temperament idea I have had for the modern piano now for a good 10 years. He graciously did so. His hand written documents can be viewed on my website. Just scroll down the index page and click on the link, "Mathematical Analysis of the EBVT by Professor Owen Jorgensen, RPT".

I have always tuned this idea aurally but often stored my results as a custom program in my Sanderson Accu-Tuner. Many interested people, however wanted to know the so-called "Correction Figures" which are a set of deviations applied to an Electronic Tuning Program. These proved very difficult to determine because there had never been a firm, theoretical model established. Professor Jorgensen helped me to find it.

Now, the Equal Beating Victorian Temperament can be accurately tuned by anyone with an Electronic Tuning Device (ETD) which provides a stretch program for Inharmonicity compensation. The only difference remaining between that and the way I actually tune the piano will be in the way I manipulate the octaves but a study of my method called "Tempered Octaves" will show how to make this small adjustment if desired.

The official Correction Figures are transcribed here:

C +3.8
C# -0.8
D +0.9
D# +3.1
E -2.0
F +1.8
F# -2.7
G +3.1
G# +1.2
A 0.0
A# +2.4
B 0.0

All comments are welcome.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#613071 - 10/06/02 06:28 PM Re: Jorgensen EBVT Analysis now on Website
reblder Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/01
Posts: 1237
Loc: Sherman Oaks, Calif.
Bill--

I just programmed my verituner based on these values you have. This makes use of the "Custom Temperament" feature in the machine.

Now if I've done it correctly, the G-B fifth in the temperament octave(F-F that is)has about one beat per second and the A-E fifth has about two beats a second.

Third wise, the F-A# and the G#-C were beating around ten beats a second with the adjacent intervals(the F-A and the G-B alot slower).

Have I done it right then?

Mark@pianosource.com

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#613072 - 10/06/02 06:57 PM Re: Jorgensen EBVT Analysis now on Website
reblder Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/01
Posts: 1237
Loc: Sherman Oaks, Calif.
Apparently my beat rates are a little off based on what I saw on your website. The G-B fifth should beat the same as the A-E and mine isn't. Also the C-E third is beating slower than the other thirds(F-A and G-E). Maybe it has to do with the Verituner's inharmonicity values which I don't think are exactly the same as the Accutuner.
this was evidenced by the fact that after I acquired the Verituner and tuned my own piano with it, I noticed slight differences between it and the Accutuner which I also had at the time.

Mark

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#613073 - 10/06/02 11:49 PM Re: Jorgensen EBVT Analysis now on Website
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3572
Loc: Madison, WI USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by reblder:
Bill--

I just programmed my verituner based on these values you have. This makes use of the "Custom Temperament" feature in the machine.

Now if I've done it correctly, the G-B fifth in the temperament octave(F-F that is)has about one beat per second and the A-E fifth has about two beats a second.

Third wise, the F-A# and the G#-C were beating around ten beats a second with the adjacent intervals(the F-A and the G-B alot slower).

Have I done it right then?

Mark@pianosource.com[/b]
Yes, apparently. Thanks for trying this. Please let us all know what your and your customer's reactions are. It's OK to say something negative. I have a pretty thick skin about it. See my next answer.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#613074 - 10/07/02 12:16 AM Re: Jorgensen EBVT Analysis now on Website
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3572
Loc: Madison, WI USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by reblder:
Apparently my beat rates are a little off based on what I saw on your website. The G-B fifth should beat the same as the A-E and mine isn't. Also the C-E third is beating slower than the other thirds(F-A and G-E). Maybe it has to do with the Verituner's inharmonicity values which I don't think are exactly the same as the Accutuner.
this was evidenced by the fact that after I acquired the Verituner and tuned my own piano with it, I noticed slight differences between it and the Accutuner which I also had at the time.

Mark[/b]
This has been the subject of a lot of heated debate. It took a really long time to establish the theoretical model. But just compare what your ETD (whether Verituner, AccuTuner or any other) does with Equal Temperament (ET). On really good pianos, things come out fairly well but on poorly or irregularly scaled pianos, they may not. But if you know what it's supposed to sound like theoretically, you can make an educated adjustment rather than a wild guess.

One point that another very fine tech pointed out which I have to put into my instructions and description is that if the G3-B3 3rd and G3-E4 6th beat *exactly the same* (6 beats per second), the B3-E4 4th will be pure because G3, B3 and E4 all have the same coincident partial. If the 4th beats, the intervals are not beating exactly the same. No two ways about it.

The speeds of the tempered 5ths can vary a little but none should beat very strongly. All should remain within the range that aural tuners get them by default when trying to tune ET.

I recommend learning what each interval should sound like by studying the aural instructions. If you are not familiar with what a Well Tempered Tuning is as opposed to ET, then that information is on my website.

The EBVT is meant to substitute for ET. It is meant to make the piano sound a little crisper, clearer, have a more pleasing resonance and provide a very slight but distinct difference for each Major and minor key. Although there may be some harmony that sounds a little intense to some people, in general, people will not be aware that the piano is tuned differently unless you tell them.

Sometimes, just telling people this will make them resistant. So, be careful who you lay this upon. I usually don't talk about it, I just do it and have for 10 years but I have made that personal choice and am not saying that I recommend any and everyone do that.

I would like to see the day come when concerts and recordings are routinely made in the more advanced ways of tuning which have become known and increasingly popular in recent years. The Internet is a great way for this kind of information, discussion and debate to take place.

Please don't be shy about your opinions.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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