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#614755 - 03/11/08 06:42 PM Repetition lever problem
James Senior Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 342
Loc: England
Hello everyone!
I'm new to the list. 24 year old Engineer / piano enthusiast...
I'm hoping that someone could advise me on how to solve a problem on my Feurich-Welte, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JqId7QQaaw
I've fully restored the Welte myself, but gave the piano to a klaviermeisterbau friend in germany. Sadly I have one probelm with it...
The little screws which set the upper position of the repetition levers are motly screwed as high as they can go, yet the repetition levers hold the hammers a little further from the string than I'd like (around 7-8mm).
This problem can only get worse as the hammers get filed over the years. The screws can not go higher.
One solution, I imagine, it to put slightly larger knuckles on. I'd like this to be a last resort due to cost. The other option I can see would be to raise the entire action up a few mm on the keyframe. I can imagine this would solve the problem, but posibly cause others such as putting the centres out of line creating more friction at the capstan.
Can anyone suggest any way of solving this?

Secondly, I'd also like to add another post on an Ibach concert grand which I need help on. Before I do this, could someone please advise me on how one uploads photos? It isn't clear to me.
Many thanks and best wishes to all,
James Senior

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#614756 - 03/11/08 10:15 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Search for the upload photo link.

Are you talking about the drop screw which is on the hammer flange? Or the one that positions the height? You have to describe the wippen. Some have the screw at the end which sets the height of the lever.

You can pull the hammers and plug and redrill. Did you figure the bore distance by:
(String Height from keybed) - (Hammer centerpin height from keybed) = bore distance ?
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#614757 - 03/12/08 06:19 AM Re: Repetition lever problem
James Senior Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 342
Loc: England
Hi Keith,
It's the drop screw in the hammer flange. If you play softly so that the jack trips, allowing the hammer to rest on the lever without checking, the hammer rests too low from the string. Normally you'd just raise the screw, but most of them can't go any further.
Every other point of regulation is fine and the action plays very well: it feels great, but sometimes it's hard to trill pp.

I don't think this is a bore distance problem. (Although now I've said that, I'll check :-)

I suspect that the knuckles are just a bit small and hoped an alternative solution to replacement might exist.

This is one of those complicated reproducing piano mechanisms where the back check is not on the back of the key itself but an additional mechanism.

thanks,
James

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#614758 - 03/12/08 08:59 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Hello James Senior,
While I am un-able to view this problem in its entirety, if you feel the knuckles are too small, why not remove the buckskin, or buckskin felt cover, and install a thicker size? This will result in a larger knuckle without the removal of the original part. Knuckle buckskin comes in various thicknesses. Readily available at any supplier in your area. Try replacing the buckskin on one or two first, and replace the hammer, to see if this is a remedy for your dilemma. Hope some of this helps....
All the best,
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#614759 - 03/12/08 09:10 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
You could strip the leather off the drop screw pad on the rep lever and try a thinner one there.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#614760 - 03/12/08 09:52 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Artisan Piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 338
If your problem is worn and compressed felts or incorrect regulation, you're only going to compound your problems by altering the dimensions of the knuckles etc.
Players are often worn a lot more than regular pianos because they can be played by simply flicking a switch. If the hammers have worn and/or shrunk by a quarter inch or more, the easiest solution in the long run is to replace them. It's also the most cost and time effective way compared to the solutions offered above. Especially if you consider that if you do replace the hammers later on, you'll have to go back and redo all the parts that you have compromised.
You want to restore the action to its original specs, not reinvent it to accommodate worn out parts.
I'm assuming that these are original parts and that your klaviermeisterbau didn't replace the hammers or knuckles with one's that didn't match the old one's. If the action was restored and can't be properly regulated then you should send it back.
_________________________
Steven
RPT

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#614761 - 03/12/08 10:00 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Steven, I'm assuming fully restored means new hammers. That is why I asked how he determined bore distance. When you have really worn hammers it easy to be mistaken as to the original bore.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#614762 - 03/12/08 10:08 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Artisan Piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 338
Keith, it's not clear, James said he fully restored the Welte but didn't specify what was done to the piano.
James?
_________________________
Steven
RPT

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#614763 - 03/12/08 11:17 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
James Senior Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 342
Loc: England
Hi guys,
just got in from a late night (3:00am here) yet felt compelled to check my post!
I should have said; the piano was fully restored. Abel re-felted the hammers, all was regulated and redone as required.
Since then I've played the piano, by hand and Welte. This led to some settling in so I've re- regulated.
I have to stress that apart from pianisimo trills, this piano has the second nicest feel of any piano I've ever played, next to a pre war Grotrian Steinweg concert grand by the same technician.
It has a very light touch as I like, extremely long keys, and low friction.
As I say, the slightly low repetition lever height only impacts the pp(p) trills, especially for the reproducing mechanism where the bellow may not drop fast enough between strikes. You can watch the hammer vibrating with the trill but not always reaching the string!
The piano is 95% perfect, but I want those few extra percent! This is my pride and joy, piano for life kind of piano.
Putting thinner leather ontop of the lever is one option. This weekend I'll go home and check other things such as bore distance, and whether the centres are in line. I suspect raising the whole action could possibly be the answer. This is because the damper rail is stopped by a non-adjustable wooden block, and additional (new)leather has been glued onto this suggesting that the dampers are a few mm lower than original.
Before you all say why does this matter, I remind you that the check and damper lifting part are not on the back of the key itself, but an additional mechanism.
Rest assured: I won't do anything hasty!
Thanks for the replies guys :-)
over and out,
James

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#614764 - 03/16/08 11:49 AM Re: Repetition lever problem
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7239
Loc: France
You may have changed the spread (the disantce between hammer center and whippen center)

Checking the correctness of the position of the jack under the roller, and the level of the whippen when the keys are at rest, should give youa clue as if your key height and basic geometry is correct.

restoring a piano is not just a matter of having new felts and cloths. If most of the job have been done and the parameters are correct, I advise you to have the action regulated by a GOOD rebuilder, (not only a technician/tuner) someone wich have a minimal understanding of the rasons why the parts have this size or not.
I understand your pleasure to do it yourself, but you will have more to keep regulated the instrument if it is done correctly the first time. It may be possible that the cloths under the back of the keys is not the good thickness.
Generally , Abel does not use less felt than originally. I'd vote for the spread anyway, how long is it ?
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#614765 - 03/16/08 01:07 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7239
Loc: France
Sorry I did not understood the action was repaired by a piano technician. Not all of us are equal, everything is possible, and leaving innapropriate spread is met more than often. Is the touch particularely light, with a large dip (sharps tend to bury in the white keys)?
The spead could change during the moving of the piano.

the whippen springs where changed ? fixed ? if springs are not strong enough you may see a larger drop than it is really.

If the spead is too large the springs have not enough force to sustend the hammer weight, the drop get large as well, in extreme case the edge of the lever touch the hammer rail, the drop screw then is useless.

May be some installation wedges under the action stack where lost during the repair.
This is one of the most difficult task to understand what thiknesses and dimensions are to be used on an old action, particularely if you don't have the piano at hand. Most pianos always "work" one have to be a good pianist to feel if the touch is normal.


Indeed possibly the leather have been replaced , sometime by a cloth, and it may be too thick.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#614766 - 03/16/08 04:29 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Kamin,
I would have to have to agree with your comments here today. Earlier in this thread I encouraged James to change one or two knuckles, (buckskin) to a thicker size. Then if this did not result in a higher hammer, I would have to conclude, like yourself, that perhaps the springs are weak. Trouble is, we cannot see the action in it's functioning mode. I would agree also that some of the action/keyboard cloths may be different sized that the original. Something else bothering me. The new cloth on the non adjustable damper rail James mentioned earlier. I would like to view this rail while the action is in motion (practically impossible). this could be a bellows regulation or control problem too... he mentioned that this symptom is more noticable with the player mechanism functioning.
James are you coming back?
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#614767 - 03/16/08 05:04 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7239
Loc: France
Well I can't see how the backchecks could be on a separate part, but I am not a player specialist.

May be the new damper stop rail is a tad low, it should be easy to check if some play remain with dampers up on a white key.

All depends of the job done on the action, rebuilding whippens totally is quite a long job, most of us like to cut corners to some point , and have the thing work. German techs have a long history with pianos , but are doing like others for some aspects )
But unusual position of the drop screw is also the sign of a too large spread.
James will be back later !
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#614768 - 03/16/08 07:40 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
yes Kamin he did say earlier that Abel re-felted the hammer set. I am presuming that he shipped the hammers still attached to the shanks, which would result in no change to the bore distance but this part of the story is not clear either. If this is true you might be correct in the remark about the drop screw position. It is unusual for sure... adjusted right out to the end.
On the damper rail I am wondering if the new material has "made" it too low.... players can be trouble some... yes that backcheck thing I would love to view this piece
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#614769 - 03/17/08 07:48 AM Re: Repetition lever problem
James Senior Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 342
Loc: England
Hello everyone,
I said that that the damper rail STOP has been made lower, suggesting that the whole damper setup is lower than original. For the player piano style piano meachanism, this means that the special Wippens are lower.
I should explain that I've been learning to regulate under the supervision of two klaviermeisterbau for years. I do not tune. I do not voice much. I leave these jobs to professionals with lots of experience. However, regulation is something I do, and do extremely well - when the action allows it :-)
In this case, something has changed wih the action's geometry (if it was ever correct at all).
If the knuckles where 1mm larger diameter I'd be fine. I will be taking the action out of the piano later today (a very long job!), and will take a photo of the action for those that have never seen a player action before.
Could someone please suggest a suitable site for uploading photos - so I can link this UBB code system to them?)
Many thanks for the suggestions!
best wishes,
James

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#614770 - 03/17/08 08:59 AM Re: Repetition lever problem
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7239
Loc: France
Hello ! nice to see you, we will know a tad more about that mistery instrument and action !

I understand if you have been well trained by an educated technician you can provide a good regulation (particularely if you are also a good pianist) nowadays experience is always what make the differnece, what you can do is take more time to have the good job done, but you certainly are not equiped as well as a pro.

Damper rail stop lower can mean that the damper felt used (or new heads) where thinner than the original - also that could mean that the cloth under the back of the keys is not as thick as original, I often see Steinways where the cloth have been replaced and the technician did not use the best thickness (it can vary from + 2 to - 2mm , that is a lot. often he vary the thickness to allow the slanted capstan to be turned more or less, hence changing the key leverage, but I am unsure it is really done purposely)

I can provide you some good method to check action geometry particularely with the keys and whippens but will do it privately.

You know what action spread is ? how much is it ? Not always easy to see if the whippen is well on the keys and the jack really well under the rolle.
If the reflting job proviced somewhat too heavy hammers (that really can happen) you friend could have benn temped to enlarge the spread a few tenths of mm , you may consider asking him.

Beside, the position of the whippen rail (and even of the hammer rail) is not always secured.

Please take more than one picture , and measure the following :
height of the front of the keys/vs keybed
height of the balance point (above the punching)
Height of the whippen center
Height of the hammer center
Height of the treble string at strike point (one measure in the medium as well if possible)
lenght of the front lever of the key (a rule is used under the key, toutching the balance pin
Lenght of the back lever (balance/capstan)
Lenght of the hammer shank (125-131 mm)
bore of the hammers
Height of the capstan/whippen heel.
measure the spread on the 2 sides
if you have a little bubble jauge, check when the key get level, is it at full dip ? slightly before ?
Is the whippen axis on the axis of the whippen lower arm or is there a 3mm undercentering

With a paper and a pencil you should be able to test the basic geometry of the instrument.

Have a look at the height of the keys, distance vs the key stop rail, and vs the cylinder (the cover name escapes me) to see if the gap is not a tad large/

How much is the key dip ? (measured with a rule or with a protractor.

I did not say but you also may have the key frame taht is not well bedded, that add fuzziness to the touch, player pianos have very long keys (as long as for a concert piano on a "Mignon" this is not big advantage when the touch is too light, becaus the keys are then flexible too much, but if you plan to have the optimum touch you may want to test weighting and spread (again)

What is the brand of the action ?
Knwing exacly what was done is also useful, an old action need new parts or complete new pinning, along with new springs whenever possible, to obtain the best touch & tone. Is your piano the one on Youtube, it is well nicely tuned in that case. A friend of mine have a Steinway Player, thes are very attractive instruments; he sell old Steinways/Bechteins whatever good german instrument, but will never sell this one !

I type fast and I am very curious about action behaviour & geometry. if you can provide some data I should be interested.

And yes a pic of the backchecks system, this is very misterious.

I use a Picasa album to store the pictures it allows the best definition (any size allowed).
Don't know how it works on that forum, it may certianly be possible.

Nice day !
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#614771 - 03/17/08 09:07 AM Re: Repetition lever problem
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7239
Loc: France
Sorry I corrrected but what I wrote frist was good : the damper felt used may be thinner(not thicker) than original. That is good that someone tooke the time to change the felt or leather of the damper stop rail, that is the sign of attention to detail, this part is ofle left unregulated, allowing some rebound of the damper head which is not nice under the fingers of the pianist.

On many instrumenst that don't have a screw to stop the sustain pedal move, the simple use of the pedal pushes the damper levers too high and they poush the stop rail.
On Some instruments I stop the rail with luttle nails ! on others I install a capstan unde rthe lever (unde rthe keybed) so i can regulate the travel of the medal.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#614772 - 03/17/08 09:09 AM Re: Repetition lever problem
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7239
Loc: France
the damper stop rail may leave a slight play up for the white keys, almost none for the sharps.
(other instructions with 3 pedals)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#614773 - 03/17/08 09:18 AM Re: Repetition lever problem
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7239
Loc: France
Checking is one of the most important part of action pre regulation. Quality of tails, and leather, height ad type of of the backchecks, slant, surface contact, rigidity of the metal, many parameters can provide you with a firmer touch or somehow uncontrolleable - and tone change as well, by evidence.
Changes in key height are changing the checking a lot this is a very sensitive issue, to the point this can be controlled "by ear" , like letoff/drop.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#614774 - 03/17/08 09:28 AM Re: Repetition lever problem
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7239
Loc: France
Sorry I forge, you may measure the attack lenght of the whippen (repetition lever), that mean the distance measured horizontally between the whippen center and the center of the whippen heel (or saddle). Have also a look to see if the saddle is well centered on the capstan.

Pics can help, but are useless because of deformation, they often show an angle where there is none. A protractor a square and a good machinist rule is all you need (along with some elastic thread, but may be you learned a little about that, German techs (the one who where at Ludwisburg school for 6 years) can be trained to asess those dimensions, but not all of them, they mostly refer to Renner the lenghts and dimensions of keyboard/action/cavity and Renner provide an answer with the good whippen and whippen heeel, the good hammer shank, etc)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#614775 - 03/17/08 12:02 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Artisan Piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 338
James, try photobucket.com
_________________________
Steven
RPT

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#614776 - 03/17/08 01:46 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Hello James.
Interesting to meet you here. We had some email exchange a few years ago.

A few comments:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kamin:
Well I can't see how the backchecks could be on a separate part, but I am not a player specialist.
This configuration is not commonly found, but there were quite a few pianos with this kind of set up. Never seen one? Expand your horizon, look here: player wippen

 Quote:
James wrote: It's the drop screw in the hammer flange. If you play softly so that the jack trips, allowing the hammer to rest on the lever without checking, the hammer rests too low from the string. Normally you'd just raise the screw, but most of them can't go any further.
When played in this manner, the hammer should drop about 2 mm from let off. If it drops further, either there is a problem with the drop screw regulation or the repetition spring is so weak that it cannot hold the hammer up.

First test: regulate the the rep spring so that the hammer moves up smartly out of check when the key is released very slowly after the hammer is in check.

This being a Feurich, it is pretty safe to assume that the piano played properly when new. So what has changed?

- the wippens are original (no new ones will fit your piano), and the shanks/flanges are too. Unless the action rails have been moved, the action geometry can not have changed, so don't worry about taking all those measurements you have been asked for.

What is with the wippen drop pads (leather or cloth) Were they replaced? If so, they may be too thick. Try some thinner material, as has been suggested. If they are original, they are not the problem.

If the knuckles are original, they are probably flattened. It would have been a perfect time to have them replaced while the hammers were refelted.

I would not reccomend trying to re-leather them. Two reasons - the cloth underneath is old, compressed and flattened and has lost most of its resilience. As well, it is very difficult to releather 88 knuckles with the consistancy required. The leather has to be very snug etc. Much easier to replace the knuckles. As a temporary fix, you could use a darning needle to pull some knitting wool through the knuckles just beneath the buckskin. This can help to bring a worn knuckle back into shape. It was one of the "old" tricks. Again, it can be inconsistant etc. New knuckles are almost always required on a piano of that age when the hammers are worn down, especially on a player.

One other thing I would try as a test is to raise a hammer flange using a cardstock shim, say 1.5 mm. Regulate that note - how does it play now? I have seen a piano very similar to yours where the solution was to raise the hammer flange rail by 2 mm, followed by full regulation. This helped to reduce friction by optimizing the magic lines and raised the hammer center pins to a better distance to the string plane.

Hope these suggestions help.
regards,
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#614777 - 03/17/08 02:20 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7239
Loc: France
Hello Jurgen, thanks for the pics. Very informative.
Your advice are good indeed but saying that one may refer to rail distance on very old action like being original is pushing the confidence a bit far.
Beside with the minimal measures I ask it takes less than on hour to have a proper sketch of the convergence lines and to assess if the position of things is correct.
for the spread, I'd agree up to some point : if the original screw/washer marks that are on the whippen and hammer rail are one and unique , the position did not change. But that does not mean the action stack is at its original height, the keys are on the good height, and so on.

Simples test like sharps burying space under the key cover, level of the whippen, position of the jack under the roller tell much on action geometry.
I am not the kind of guy that pretend that originally the factory worker made lots of mistakes, but they of course sometime did, and between the department happens that the one that worked on dampers had to compromize because the one that worked on keyboard where slightly off standard measure, then the ones that drill the hammers have also to compromize.

This kind of thing lend to unusual spread sometime, it helps to understand why the springs are weak for instance.

I aways have find interesting to take a few measurements, because I have seen to much good technicians , that are so sure they will be able to have the darn thing work, that they forget to check if there is not a glitch somewhere. Not always possible to correct it but it may be interesting not to accentuate it. Changing the vertical dimension within the action stack is a very strong measure, it can apply if the hammers are too long and if there is a little space under the pinblock, but it is better to check why there is too much friction at the roller/jack contatc before and what will be the convergence at the key when you will be done. The vertical dimension within an action is a fixed important parameter, in fact almost the only parameter that deos not have to vary IMHO. I'd better raise the stack than doing so.

I appreciate you enlighted comments and ideas, for what I have read on this forum yet.

I believe that being an engineer, the owner of the piano will appreciate a little jump in the piano action standards. and so will I !

Best regards.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#614778 - 03/17/08 02:39 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7239
Loc: France
"This being a Feurich, it is pretty safe to assume that the piano played properly when new. So what has changed?"

Well this I totally agree with !

And I understand your point not to overcomplicate things, weak springs is not uncommon in old pianos due to age indeed, one may need to strenghten them without putting kings and kill their progressivness, but it is not so easy nor possible if you don't have the correct tool and method.

Regulating screw for the spring is not always present.

Senior say he learned to regulate, and he was really trained at it. Don't know what it mean exactly , but I suppose he knows how to test springs.

Your step by step explanations are useful anyway.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#614779 - 03/17/08 03:20 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I meant to write: regulate the rep spring (not "screw" as I wrote). I have edited my message. Thanks for catching that.
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Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
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#614780 - 03/17/08 06:38 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
James Senior Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 342
Loc: England
Hi guys, what a lot of response!
I really should have said, re-felted hammers, original shanks etc etc etc. I tried to save time by saying the rest was perfect (springs etc) to save everyone time, but thanks anyway. :-)
Interestingly, today I did some measurements.
The centre pins geometry (some say magic lines) are almost perfect. The shanks have new knuckles, and if these were 0.5/1mm larger, the centre lines would be perfect and my repetition height would be solved. This is what I need to do to solve the problem.
WHAT IS INTERESTING, is that when I measure the string height, and then the pin height and hammer length (sorry don't know terminology), when the hammers are 90 degrees to the strings, they are 8mm below the strings. In other words, on contact, the hammers do not strike at 90 degrees. 8mm is a lot, however the instrument still sounds absolutely great, and I assume that this must have been a compromise in designing an action for a Welte?
I'll upload some photos tomorrow. I'll sign up to Flickr or something to put them on. I also have a thread on IBach I want to start!
Many thanks Kamin and Jurgen!
James

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#614781 - 03/17/08 08:58 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7239
Loc: France
What you state is called overcentering.

its a way to lighten the friction at letoff time.
On old instrumenst the string's plane was often very high. actually range 190 - 196 mm)
To keep the hammer striking the strings at 90 ) (which is usually what is wanted) a 91 to 92 ° of the hammer on the shank is usual on many european brand and overcentering (renner standard action) is 3 mm.

I noticed overcentering as high as 6 mm (1920 Bechstein mod A with Schwander action) but then the hammer "rake" angle was 94 or even more.

never seen 8 mm particularely if the letoff is above the spread line which is all but usual (it is on or slightly under)

I believe, as you said, the 5% you are looking for are ther (it should be possibly more than 5% BTW)

It is possible that because of the special whippen it may not be easy to open the angle of the hammer that much. What is most important is to respect the good strike line .

What is you theory for the "magic lines" being "perfect" ?

Nowadays with a so high overcentering, the action stack is may be very low, or may be it was made necessary for the installation of the Welte for a reason that excapes me. It is not possible to get the normal drop with those out of standard parameters. (something probably changed)
We use measures and dimensions in that trade to understand a tad what is there. For instance we say hammers are glued 130 mm on the shank with a rake angle of 92° , a 10 mm knukle (roller) at 17 mm from the center pin. This is the way information is useful given.

I could help if you like to try to understand but you talk like if you know yet what you are doing. and provide not enough information.
so it is not possible to me, not to give you advice to do this or that, because I will not , but to say what I understand in your action and why if feel so light. (with a 8 mm overcentering you have not any friction and tactile feedback at letoff, visibly you understood that the roller was 1 mm too high from the jack at letoff moment. That mean the action is too low by that amount.) changing for a thicker roller (is it 9 mm ? 10mm ?) is rarely used, 11 mm rollers are only seen on some rare grands. like Fôrster ,it is possible you need it, but I doubt of it (Jûrgen possibly knows better on that aspect)


Checking how is the key vs the whippen will clear the point where somthing have been changed.

as small change as 1 - 2 mm in parameters can modify the whole behaviour of a grand actioon, as you will certainly discover.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#614782 - 03/17/08 09:17 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7239
Loc: France
Look at the strings print on the heads

If the print of the strings are off the center of the head (they are on the back of the hammer if the hammers are glued 91° but overcentering is 4 mm more) that is the result of the too large overcentering un corrected with the rake angle.
You could check the strike line with along wooden stick under the shanks raising the hammers on the action so they are at the strin's plane level. You will then see if they are yet in line or not.

Some tweaking may have been used because of the Welte, I only can speak of normal action parameters, but indeed the best strike line is all is wanted, (with hammers hitting at 90° the strings) on an accoustic instrument, and I was said that this aspect can be left unatained when a player system is used, because the instrument then have less nuances abilities, and it should be very light to help the player system to function well
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#614783 - 03/17/08 11:40 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7239
Loc: France
Senior, Unless you have something against Google, I'd suggest using Picasa for your pics albums their software to deal with your pictures locally is very good and fast, the search engine of course is good, it have a nice feature that recoginize any new picture or graphic element you have on your PC -if you use one - and the search for doublons is amazing.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#614784 - 03/18/08 05:57 PM Re: Repetition lever problem
James Senior Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 342
Loc: England
[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/24794856@N03/2344227530/[/img]

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