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#618870 - 01/31/09 06:16 AM What glue to use for hammer heads?
junmer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 397
Loc: United Arab Emirates
I bought a new set of hammers and shanks for my Yamaha C3. The new hammerheads came in separately from the shanks so I needed to glue them in one by one. I used hot hide glue and it seemed to work. I wonder if there will be a negative effect in the long term as hot hide glue is excellent for key bushings only(?).
_________________________
JUNMER
Piano tuner / Piano teacher
Dubai
United Arab Emirates
0097150-6543009
0097155-6543009

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#618871 - 01/31/09 06:38 AM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Hot hide glue is good as long as it is not too "clean" of a grade. A light clear is usually too hard and brittle. Joe Garrett used to make his own formula for hanging hammers. Kawai has their own formula. You shouldn't have any problems if you got enough glue in the joint and left a good collar.
If they loosen up, it is no problem to pop them off and use a little cold hide glue to re glue them.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#618872 - 01/31/09 06:44 AM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
junmer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 397
Loc: United Arab Emirates
Thanks Keith. It's going to be a wait and see situation. I want to play it real hard to see the strength of the glue.

I've never encountered cold hide glue.
_________________________
JUNMER
Piano tuner / Piano teacher
Dubai
United Arab Emirates
0097150-6543009
0097155-6543009

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#618873 - 01/31/09 08:33 AM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3866
Recently, I've used Titebond molding and trim wood glue. It has the same glue up properties of hide glue but you don't have to heat it.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#618874 - 01/31/09 10:29 AM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
Hide glue is wonderful and amazing stuff: incredibly hard and strong and easily reversible. It's also environmentally friendly. (it may also be good for your hair and nails!) I like to use urea to lengthen the gelling time. This helps a lot when trying to get a good joint on hammers - it needs a little time to soak into the wood. I think I remember Wally Brooks saying once that with hot glue the shanks don't take up as much moisture as with aliphatic resin glues. This could mean less burning-in after installation. I believe they use hot glue for all their pre-hung sets of hammers.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#618875 - 01/31/09 11:56 AM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1710
Loc: Massachusetts
Has anyone tried Old Brown Glue ? It's hide glue processed to have a long open time, and which doesn't need a glue pot because it liquifies at a much lower temperature. It is popular with builders of fine furniture. Like ordinary hide glue it can be softened with heat.

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#618876 - 01/31/09 12:58 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
junmer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 397
Loc: United Arab Emirates
Thanks for your posts. My only concern is whether the hide glue is strong enough to cope with hard blows. But it seems you're all in favor of it so it's going to be a wait and see situation. My C3 has a Dampp-Chaser installed in it so I guess I won't worry about moisture problems.
_________________________
JUNMER
Piano tuner / Piano teacher
Dubai
United Arab Emirates
0097150-6543009
0097155-6543009

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#618877 - 01/31/09 01:00 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
junmer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 397
Loc: United Arab Emirates
Roy, I'm curious about what others might say about the Old Brown Glue.
_________________________
JUNMER
Piano tuner / Piano teacher
Dubai
United Arab Emirates
0097150-6543009
0097155-6543009

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#618878 - 01/31/09 01:45 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
KawaiDon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/02
Posts: 1225
Loc: Orange County, CA
Never heard of "old brown glue" but it sounds like a variation on cold hide glue.

I have always preferred hide glue, but I agree that the Molding and Trim glue from Franklyn does work well, and it dries hard. A good glue collar of very hard glue has tonal benefits.
_________________________
Don Mannino, MPA
Kawai America

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#618879 - 01/31/09 01:55 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
junmer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 397
Loc: United Arab Emirates
 Quote:
Originally posted by KawaiDon:
A good glue collar of very hard glue has tonal benefits. [/b]
Really? I thought only voicing affects tone.
_________________________
JUNMER
Piano tuner / Piano teacher
Dubai
United Arab Emirates
0097150-6543009
0097155-6543009

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#618880 - 01/31/09 06:25 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by junmer:
... My only concern is whether the hide glue is strong enough to cope with hard blows....[/b]
Junmer, what do you think was used to glue on hammers for 250 years before plastics and "artificial" glues came along? Not just the hammers - everything in the piano, and every piece of furniture as well.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#618881 - 01/31/09 06:45 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
The tone is only as good as the impact the hammer can deliver. If on impact, the shank eats up some of the energy of the hammer, the wave formation and the rebound is affected. Tonal quality is dependent on the hammer imparting a clean blow and exiting rapidly. Checking and repetition is also affected because the weak spot is at the hammer head when there is no glue collar.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#618882 - 01/31/09 06:54 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21522
Loc: Oakland
 Quote:
Junmer, what do you think was used to glue on hammers for 250 years before plastics and "artificial" glues came along?
I think it is more like 5000 years that hide glue has been used.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#618883 - 01/31/09 08:01 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
It sure smells like it's 5000 years old sometimes!
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#618884 - 01/31/09 11:28 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
5000 years?? I never knew the piano was such an ancient instrument!
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#618885 - 01/31/09 11:30 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21522
Loc: Oakland
Apparently there are artifacts from Egyptian tombs that were made with hide glue.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#618886 - 01/31/09 11:33 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
vince mrykalo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/23/04
Posts: 52
Loc: Utah
Sometimes hot hide won't work very well because the parts being glued together were too cool (temperature-wise). I always warm the parts if I am using it. If used correctly, you can't beat it.
_________________________
Vince Mrykalo RPT MPT
Piano Technician University of Utah

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#618887 - 01/31/09 11:43 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Sorry, I thought this thread was about glue for hanging piano hammers.

I didn't look closely at the details of Junmer's avatar. My mistake....
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#618888 - 02/01/09 04:45 AM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
junmer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 397
Loc: United Arab Emirates
Thanks for the info that hide glue was the glue that was used since ancient times. However, it is not the glue I see that is being used for joining the shank and head in modern pianos. Something must have come out better that it's already been replaced for that purpose.
_________________________
JUNMER
Piano tuner / Piano teacher
Dubai
United Arab Emirates
0097150-6543009
0097155-6543009

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#618889 - 02/01/09 03:34 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
I hate that new glue that is being used in New pianos.

Recently I replaced a set of dampers and it took me 2 hours to remove the old dampers! With hot hide glue it's done in 15 minutes.

I've never replaced a set of hammers glued with this new stuff but I think it will be harder to do.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#618890 - 02/01/09 03:41 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2339
Loc: Lowell MA
One of the tolerances that insures a lasting joint is how tightly the hammer fits on the shank.

If you are accustomed to boring and reaming the shank hole making for a looser fit then perhaps many glues will fail.

If you can hang a set of hammers with a tight tolerance between the shank and the hole in the hammer, then even Hot Hyde glue will be very difficult to free.
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
facebook.com/E. J. Buck & Sons Performances

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#618891 - 02/01/09 03:48 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21522
Loc: Oakland
You should have a shank knurler if you replace hammer heads. The knurling swells up and makes a tight joint as long as you use a water-based glue. Shanks may come knurled, but they will absorb water between the time they are made and the time you install them, so it is better to do it over yourself.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#618892 - 02/01/09 07:59 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1710
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Originally posted by KawaiDon:
Never heard of "old brown glue" but it sounds like a variation on cold hide glue.

[/b]
It's probably somewhat similar, but unlike cold hide glue, it does have a gel temperature.

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#618893 - 02/11/09 11:31 PM Re: What glue to use for hammer heads?
RoyP Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 786
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
I just glued on some hammers using the Titebond molding and trim glue. I was unhappy with the alignment of a few of the hammer heads, so I decided to try heating the heads and moving the angle. I clamped a heat gun into a vise, and held the hammer and shank in front of it to heat the joint. It worked. You heat it, put pressure on the joint, and once it gets warm enough you can feel it move. Now I'm wondering if this compromises the strength of this type of glue. Does anyone know?
_________________________
Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
www.cincypiano.com

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